General Discussion

I know for our American Neighbours it sure seems of little significance. For us Europeans, it is a vital, decisive question, wether or not to unify Europe to strengthen us for the future. Let me say this clear, by heart I will always be way more German than European, but in my mind it has always been clear to me that Europe has only a future if we are able to create a unified Federation of states, in the long run like the USA. I know, thats not what many Europeans like, in their hearts they cling like to the historically grown nations, like I do. But reason and science all show that we are to unite or to loose our significance in the world.

Ireland, I dont get it... NO other nation has benefitted greater from European Union than they! Billions of Euro went into the once poorest nation of the EU, special contracts, laws, any kind of support. But people are fooled by the most stupid arguments now.

It has already been the same a short time ago, when the Europeans Nations forged a European Constitution, one of the most modern ever made, which would replace the entanglement of bureaucrats with simple and democratic structures, more direct democracy, more transparency. The bad thing is, 90% of all people who voted against the Constitution never read it. They claim all evil to the Union and all good the National states. Then the Constitution was stripped of the ideals and reduced to a contract, which now was under vote of the 27 member nations. So far all had agreed, all but the Irish, those who always had gotten the greatest gain, the most money from the EU. And with what arguments? The EU contract would bring in drugs, prostitution and abortion - appealing to the LOWEST fears. It were only 45% Irish who even WENT to the vote, and now a nation with a mere 4 million inhabitants has over-voted the other 500 million Europeans! Democracy ad absurdum.

The only realistic fear of Ireland was the strengthening of democracy! Currently the EU is lead by Commisars, unknown bureaucrats, free of influence of the EU parliamant, and one Commisar from each of the 27 Nations. All decisions must be accepted by ALL 27 members atm! This principle was ok when the EU only consisted of 6 or 8 members, but with 27 it makes it almost impossible to go ahead, and no decision can be made about anything now! It twists the weight of the actual number of people, when a nation with 4 millions has the same weight as a nation with 80 million people! In any REAL democracy there is one principle: One Man One Vote! The Constitution as now the contract who was in question, would have replaced the Commisars with a real kind of government, directly under the control of an elected Parliament, where one European person is ONE vote, as Democracy SHOULD be. There are so many parts of the Constitution and the contract who would have strengthened democracy and the influence of the people, but most followed whims and prejudices, when it came to one of the most important decision of Europe since the end of the World War II.

I do respect any Nation decides not the be part of the European Union, even if I find it extemely selfish of Ireland only to take the good (our money) and then dont stand for the obligations and responsibilities. Thats no decend behavior. I hope those states willing to ratify the contract, or better the Constitution, will form a new European Union and those who are unwilling are leaving! We Europeans must set a good example to create a modern, democratic Federation at the beginning of the new century, and not loose ourselves in stupid bickering over false rumors and hearsay! This is a shameful day for Ireland. IF you dont want to be in, fine, but then get the heck out of our European Union!

One thing I notice is that people lump the decisions of the politicians with the rest of the people. Don't be angry at the Irish, but their government.

Maybe there are other conditions in the contract that they would be averse to and it merely needs to be modified...

I hope to get to live in Europe one day: Sure is a hell of a lot nicer there than most places here; you don't really get to appreciate it until you're gone though.

What if the Irish are right?

This is similiar to the centuries old arguement in the United States over a Confederation of independant states or a central Federalist government system.

In the case of the EU, giving each member state an equal vote as every other member state creates this sort of a problem. But, if changed to popular vote like you suggest, Ireland winds up with no say, and the high density population members control the policies. The problem occurs because the member states still think of themselves as separate, autonomous members, rather than as a member of the whole EU. In short, they are still pursuing their own national interests, not the interests of the EU. To paraphrase former US President John F Kennedy (a liberal Democrat Federalist), when members join the EU, are they asking "what can we do for the EU", or are they asking "what can the EU do for us"?

After the fall of the Soviet Union Russia tried to be a Commonwealth of Independant States, however, once the members thought of themselves first and foremost as individuals, Russia broke apart. Out of it rose Putin, a strong central government advocate, to re-unify Russia and direct it toward common goals. We have seen the rise in influence of Russia under this strong centralized government that was just not occuring under the disjointed member states organization.

You also see these kinds of arguements from the posters here in the United States. They advocate reallocating power from the central federal government back to the member states, and then make statements that, since they live in New York, they don't care about funding flood relief in the midwest with their public tax dollars. They then fall back on the justification that it should private non-tax donations that are used. You will hear how Americans are the most giving people in the world used to support the dis-jointed arguement that they don't want their tax dollars given to help, but would rather the other guy give his donations privately.

In short, it is the same arguement to justify the actions of a member state such as Ireland. That they only want the benefits of a member state driven organization, rather than the responsibilities of a federalist system. You are correct, your EU charter is flawed, and will remain so until the disjointed interests of each member state become subordinated to the interests of the whole.

Originally posted by Elikal

I know for our American Neighbours it sure seems of little significance. For us Europeans, it is a vital, decisive question, wether or not to unify Europe to strengthen us for the future. Let me say this clear, by heart I will always be way more German than European, but in my mind it has always been clear to me that Europe has only a future if we are able to create a unified Federation of states, in the long run like the USA. I know, thats not what many Europeans like, in their hearts they cling like to the historically grown nations, like I do. But reason and science all show that we are to unite or to loose our significance in the world.

Ireland, I dont get it... NO other nation has benefitted greater from European Union than they! Billions of Euro went into the once poorest nation of the EU, special contracts, laws, any kind of support. But people are fooled by the most stupid arguments now.

It has already been the same a short time ago, when the Europeans Nations forged a European Constitution, one of the most modern ever made, which would replace the entanglement of bureaucrats with simple and democratic structures, more direct democracy, more transparency. The bad thing is, 90% of all people who voted against the Constitution never read it. They claim all evil to the Union and all good the National states. Then the Constitution was stripped of the ideals and reduced to a contract, which now was under vote of the 27 member nations. So far all had agreed, all but the Irish, those who always had gotten the greatest gain, the most money from the EU. And with what arguments? The EU contract would bring in drugs, prostitution and abortion - appealing to the LOWEST fears. It were only 45% Irish who even WENT to the vote, and now a nation with a mere 4 million inhabitants has over-voted the other 500 million Europeans! Democracy ad absurdum.

The only realistic fear of Ireland was the strengthening of democracy! Currently the EU is lead by Commisars, unknown bureaucrats, free of influence of the EU parliamant, and one Commisar from each of the 27 Nations. All decisions must be accepted by ALL 27 members atm! This principle was ok when the EU only consisted of 6 or 8 members, but with 27 it makes it almost impossible to go ahead, and no decision can be made about anything now! It twists the weight of the actual number of people, when a nation with 4 millions has the same weight as a nation with 80 million people! In any REAL democracy there is one principle: One Man One Vote! The Constitution as now the contract who was in question, would have replaced the Commisars with a real kind of government, directly under the control of an elected Parliament, where one European person is ONE vote, as Democracy SHOULD be. There are so many parts of the Constitution and the contract who would have strengthened democracy and the influence of the people, but most followed whims and prejudices, when it came to one of the most important decision of Europe since the end of the World War II.

I do respect any Nation decides not the be part of the European Union, even if I find it extemely selfish of Ireland only to take the good (our money) and then dont stand for the obligations and responsibilities. Thats no decend behavior. I hope those states willing to ratify the contract, or better the Constitution, will form a new European Union and those who are unwilling are leaving! We Europeans must set a good example to create a modern, democratic Federation at the beginning of the new century, and not loose ourselves in stupid bickering over false rumors and hearsay! This is a shameful day for Ireland. IF you dont want to be in, fine, but then get the heck out of our European Union!

We Europeans must set a good example to create a modern, democratic Federation at the beginning of the new century.  Yeah, right.  You're complaining because Ireland's constitution requires any amendment be ratified by a popular vote, including acts that have constitutional strength like treaty modifications.  Damn democracy getting in the way of my democracy.  Kick 'em out.  Let me make some things clear for those Americans here who don't follow this shit.

1.  This is largely an end run around the rejection of the EU Constitution.

2.  The reason the Lisbon Treaty doesn't require as many popular votes as the EU Constitution is because, legally, it's just a modification of existing treaties, rather than a whole new binding document like the EU Constitution.

3.  This was deliberately done to avoid further popular votes, as out of the five countries that held a referendum to determine the fate of the EU Constitution, two rejected it then.  Out of the three that passed it by referendum, one country had a very low voter turnout, and the other two passed it by a very narrow margin.

4.  As a result of this shift in tactics, Ireland is the only country that had a popular vote this time around.

5.  In fact, while the Lisbon Treaty dropped many of the more controversial terms of the EU Constitution, it contains rehashes of many others, just in non-binding language.  It would eventually be made binding if this came to pass.

Now why don't the Irish like it?  Well, if you listen to the OP, who is not Irish and obviously has no idea of their concerns beyond the quatsch he has read in the German papers, it's because they're insular morons.  Here is the actual truth.

1.  France is taking leadership of the EU next.

2.  You know what France loves?  One of the issues that really gets them hard when it comes to EU policy?  Normalization of corporate taxation.  They've pushed hard for it before, and they will push hard for it again.

3.  Guess what country's recent economic growth has been the result of massive corporate investment due to a very low corporate tax rate?  If you guessed Ireland, you win the prize.

4.  Does the treaty contain binding language forcing the Irish to alter their tax code?  No.

5.  Would it eventually lead to that happening in a few years time?  Probably.

Well, those are the answers by the numbers.  Here is a hint, Elikal.  It's not democracy if you discard the results you don't like.  You have a process in place.  Live with the results.

Oh yeah, just another little thing to consider for the Americans who don't care about this shit.  EU governments are already publicly talking about ways to circumvent Ireland's decision.  That's right.  They're coming out and saying they're looking for a legal way to get around this.  They agreed to this setup with their recent treaties, and now that something has happened which they don't like, they will find a way to simply push aside the dissenting party.

1919-1933.  1945-2008.  I guess with only 77 years of democracy, it's not too surprising that Germany isn't quite sure of what the word means.  The Indians learned to accept the bad decisions with the good, and they have about twenty less than you guys.  Maybe you should outsource your governance to them, Elikal?

The EU would be a massive waste of manpower if even a country like Ireland were to GTFO.

Adopting the Euro will probably be the only good decision that comes out Europe starting to bind itself as one, Anything else will just be political...  Seriously adopting the Euro removed one of the first tangible advantages that the US has always had over you guys economically.  Combined with some of the advantages of being as independant of each other as you were Ireland would have never needed the aid anyways, you just sped them up by a handful of years.

Originally posted by Elikal

I know for our American Neighbours it sure seems of little significance. For us Europeans, it is a vital, decisive question, wether or not to unify Europe to strengthen us for the future. Let me say this clear, by heart I will always be way more German than European, but in my mind it has always been clear to me that Europe has only a future if we are able to create a unified Federation of states, in the long run like the USA. I know, thats not what many Europeans like, in their hearts they cling like to the historically grown nations, like I do. But reason and science all show that we are to unite or to loose our significance in the world.

Ireland, I dont get it... NO other nation has benefitted greater from European Union than they! Billions of Euro went into the once poorest nation of the EU, special contracts, laws, any kind of support. But people are fooled by the most stupid arguments now.

It has already been the same a short time ago, when the Europeans Nations forged a European Constitution, one of the most modern ever made, which would replace the entanglement of bureaucrats with simple and democratic structures, more direct democracy, more transparency. The bad thing is, 90% of all people who voted against the Constitution never read it. They claim all evil to the Union and all good the National states. Then the Constitution was stripped of the ideals and reduced to a contract, which now was under vote of the 27 member nations. So far all had agreed, all but the Irish, those who always had gotten the greatest gain, the most money from the EU. And with what arguments? The EU contract would bring in drugs, prostitution and abortion - appealing to the LOWEST fears. It were only 45% Irish who even WENT to the vote, and now a nation with a mere 4 million inhabitants has over-voted the other 500 million Europeans! Democracy ad absurdum.

The only realistic fear of Ireland was the strengthening of democracy! Currently the EU is lead by Commisars, unknown bureaucrats, free of influence of the EU parliamant, and one Commisar from each of the 27 Nations. All decisions must be accepted by ALL 27 members atm! This principle was ok when the EU only consisted of 6 or 8 members, but with 27 it makes it almost impossible to go ahead, and no decision can be made about anything now! It twists the weight of the actual number of people, when a nation with 4 millions has the same weight as a nation with 80 million people! In any REAL democracy there is one principle: One Man One Vote! The Constitution as now the contract who was in question, would have replaced the Commisars with a real kind of government, directly under the control of an elected Parliament, where one European person is ONE vote, as Democracy SHOULD be. There are so many parts of the Constitution and the contract who would have strengthened democracy and the influence of the people, but most followed whims and prejudices, when it came to one of the most important decision of Europe since the end of the World War II.

I do respect any Nation decides not the be part of the European Union, even if I find it extemely selfish of Ireland only to take the good (our money) and then dont stand for the obligations and responsibilities. Thats no decend behavior. I hope those states willing to ratify the contract, or better the Constitution, will form a new European Union and those who are unwilling are leaving! We Europeans must set a good example to create a modern, democratic Federation at the beginning of the new century, and not loose ourselves in stupid bickering over false rumors and hearsay! This is a shameful day for Ireland. IF you dont want to be in, fine, but then get the heck out of our European Union!

No it is not, in Ireland the people can at least vote directly. Its a shame that in many countries, also germany, people  cant vote about the EU-agreement and in every country where people had a chance to vote against the agreement of Lisboa, the agreement failed. This has its reasons since part of the agreements content delimitate the freedom of each nation politics. Just read about the agreement of Lisboa, most interesting to read about facts from  the famous german Prof. Schachtschneider and other small organisations who fight against the agreement. The whole convention has only one aim, to centralize the powers of each nation and to influence big parts of national politics and shorten the powers of own  politician. This is some kind of the beginning of a political dictate and not about democratical freedom, thats a lie.

The whole EU decomcratic Federation freedom and especially the convention of Lisboa has a lot of content which most people even dont know about, probably you are also one of them and the most important point, they cant vote for or against it.

The votes in Ireland are only real free democratic elections ! Maybe you should rethink your demands that a co