Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Lets get somthing clear skippy I threatend no one. I said there were people out there looking to stomp his ass, and that is the truth, and some of these people I would not want to piss off. Is it whacked? sure it is, but some folks are that seriouse about their gaming and really don't take kindly to some arrogant asshat calling them stupid then telling them to suck cock.   It's called not letting your allagator mouth over load your tweety bird ass.  It is also no doubt why the little coward deleted a lot of the Smack talk he layed out in the first place.

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.

If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.

If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.

Exactly.  Well said. 

Geeze, he really did edit it didn't he? I like both versions of his post. 

I appreciate his taking the time to write his blog.  If I make a mistake at work, I have to fix my mistake if possible and explain to the customer what happened and what we did to fix it.  So years later we are finding out what happened.  I'd like to know the plan to fix it?

From what I read, he learned some lessons from all this.  I think reflecting on a mistake and learning from it is a great step to making sure it doesn't happen again.  But nothing has been done to fix the mistake.  All we hear are a lot of excuses.

Also, he says at that time the subscription base was more like 160 to 180k, rather than 200k.  My God, what must the subscription base be now?!  It has to be around 10k, not including station access pass.

Originally posted by musicmann

 

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.

 

Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.

If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.

If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.

 

Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time.    Murderers are forgiven and given a chance.   Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.  

If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc. 

If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on

Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have.  Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by musicmann

 

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.

 

Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.

If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.

If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.

 

 

Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time.    Murderers are forgiven and given a chance.   Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.  

If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc. 

If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on

Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have.  Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).

 

To forgive is to be human i will agree, but your example of forgiveness on murders and such i do not agree. The thing is,  SOE screwed up. Do i still care, not reallly. I unsubbed right when the NGE hit and only go back with the vet passes.

Did this smuck apologize, yes he did. Do i have to hold him accountable for his past actions, no i don't, but anyone with half a brain can see not only was he pround of what he did, he still relishies in it.

The fact still remains that SOE pulled one of the biggest shame and bait and switch i haver seen.

Originally posted by musicmann

 

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.

 

Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.

If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.

If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.

 

The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.

Originally posted by boognish75

Originally posted by musicmann

 

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.

 

Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.

If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.

If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.

 

The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.

The bait and switcch was them stringing along players with the CH revamp with the TOOW expansion. Then getting rid of the whole proffession all togeither. As of late, if you read these forums you can clearly see SOE had a hidden agenda and hid it from the players to keep them paying as they developed the NGE.

I didn't read the thread.. I read the blog (aka follow the link).

I am going to comment on that..

The saddest thing is that they still don't get it.  List off I worked blah blah.. you are wrong to think this game or that was fun.  You didn't really enjoy it..

I'd love to compare resumes with him directly someday...  and work experience/success.

I'm going to pretend to have logic here and:

You launch a game with issues (all mmo's have issues).  You have features that didn't make it live or don't work (pretty common as well).  Yet instead of fixing issues and finishing implementation, you  add more balance breaking things or did nothing.

Then the solution became to do it all over from scratch because.. people were leaving.

Now if you can't look at that and see the logic problem.. you don't belong in game development.  Still trying to sell the same f'ud up mistake years later is just as bad.

"oh it could have worked if.."

Well you know.. IF you had fixed stuff, finished stuff.. implemented promised stuff... it probably would have worked as well.

SWG was a failure with 200/180k subs?  *ponders*

Its funny because before WoW launched SWG was second to... EQ1..

Star Wars a large IP?  sure.. movies books... how well did most of those lucas arts star wars games sell?  As compared to the few that actually.. sold.. at all... oh that's right not many.  This goes back many years the list of successful LA games with the star wars brand is much shorter than the successful one.  Altho that was when they were pushing the RTS games over and over and over.

So somehow this all translates that SWG should have had WoW numbers... *ponders*

warcraft.. a computer game series.. might actually have computer game.. fans.

In fact if WoW hadn't launched SWG would have been a "success" .. any MMO that had ever hit at least 100k subs was a success then.

There are 3 large mistakes with SWG to be honest.. or at least I can cut it down to 3.

1) Instead of fixing/finishing/implementing.. you flushed it and started over and lost your player base.

2) Someone thought that a movie/book based IP would translate into a huge MMO IP.  In my opinion this was the biggest mistake.. they had no clue what the demographic was.. or actually bought into the idea that star wars fans were created with EP1 and thus.. all gamed.

3) They still don't get the fact that the NGE would have never worked except as a seperate product marketed to a different audience.  Which leads right into the I apologize.. I made a mistake but just because I didn't have time to polish the turd before it got dumped out.

I pretty much shut up about Pre-CU.. I try to avoid getting into discussions about it anymore.

I wish this guy.. would do the same.. because no matter how he tries to twist it into an apology.. he's still trying to claim it was the right thing to do.

.... *epic fail* ...

Pre-CU was still around I'd still be running 9 accounts to this day.

Why?  because every other MMO out is a level/class based pos clone of EQ1/WoW and every game in between.

Dare.. to be different... stick with what you make/market.. and fix/implement as needed.

/endrant/ramble.. and I'll take another long break from pre-cu related threads (there was much rejoicing).

Originally posted by boognish75

The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La.

That whole EULA argument is a palid excuse and it has been argued successfully that it does not apply to many of the circumstances that occured with the NGE. EVen the developer in question admits numerous times that it was WRONG. And even if by some small miracle, the EULA could in fact cover things like the Ranger Revamp ploy - the fact is (since moral concepts seem to be flying around here today) just because they have the right to do it - DOESN"T make it right.

That fact was reinforced with the irrefutable proof that is the difference between subscriptions of the PreCU and the NGE. SOE pulled their bait and switch - thousands upon thousands left. Their name becoming mud on forums and news releases everywhere.

As for the whole you don't own virtual items argument - SOE opened pandora's box with the ability to purchase items in game. That one will be working itself to a head soon enough when they implement it full on in their next mmo.

Originally posted by ummax

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

Outlining a problem and understanding the problem are two completely separate things.  The CU and the NGE weren't the answer to the problem.  SWG didn't need overhauls it needed tweaks.

The CU and the NGE were like taking your car with an 8 cylinder engine into the shop because it makes a funny noise and getting back the car with a 4 cylinder engine--A 4 cylinder engine missing it's pistons, spark-plugs, crankshaft, and camshafts.

read that blog and you can see where the nge came from. only a "man" with that kind of mindset could

"create" something as turd-like as the nge.

This man isn't sorry for anything.  I notice my reply while a tad abrasive didn't use any words worse then what he uses in his original blog, has been deleted.  While yes this is his blog and he can do what he wants, he certainly does not want to 'face the music' and hear what is really on peoples minds.  Apparently he still has a problem with how his past customers feel by deleting selected responses. 

This does not show me a person who is sorry.  This shows me a man who is working with a current development company and who might be concerned his old SWG days will catch up to him.

Originally posted by ummax

Originally posted by musicmann

 

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 

They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   

the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.

So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 

It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 

I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.

/shrugs

 

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.

 

Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.

If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.

If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.

 

 

Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time.    Murderers are forgiven and given a chance.   Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.  

If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc. 

If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on

Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have.  Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).

 

Ummax - I'm wondering if you work for Sony.

SOE isn't sorry. If they were, they wouldn't have LIED TO US OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

If SOE was sorry, they would roll back the servers.

If SOE was sorry, they NEVER would have asked us to pay a subscription fee to beta test the CU and the NGE.

If SOE was sorry, they wouldn't have spindoctors everywhere working damage control. They wouldn't be complaining to media outlets simply reporting the story. They wouldn't be censoring their boards to stop people who have complaints that have merit.

I think SOE and their programming team is sorry they got caught.

I think SOE is sorry that they're losing money. But their solution is to blame the idiot peons who are quiting for not reveling in their genius programmers (like this guy.)

If you want my money, make a product I like. You get bonus points if you don't BLATANTLY AND KNOWINGLY lie to me in the process. Why is that so hard?

The old system was good. It needed tweeking, but all games do.

You could have just told us that: We WANT to do this, We NEED to fix that, etc. But instead, they told us that those things were already there, that bugs were just in our heads, etc.

SOE isn't sorry for anything. Heck - this guy in his original post didn't sound the slightest bit sorry for anything. And after all the lies, why should I believe the apology anyway - especially since they haven't done anything concrete to make it up to their customer base.

Since SOE supporters are now joining this thread saying what a nice apology was offered by Dan, here's the original version, complete with insults and compound words.  This is the "apology" we were offered.  This may explain the response much better than the twice edited version now on Dan's blog.  I'm going to try to edit some of the things that MMORPG would rightly delete, but you'll still get the idea (edits will have a *):

"Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some ?ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG?, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d*ck. OM NOM NOM.

For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future.

begin article here. You d*ck eaters quiet down. *om nom nom*

So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.

So first.

If I have ever created something that you didn?t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.

That is never the goal of a game developer.

However.

Let us set the record straight.

Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.

First, some ground rules.

I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.

A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.

I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I?ve worked with ever did this.

We provided a means to create something to make money.

As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.

Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.

At times, I describe it as, ?If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don?t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.?

That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we?d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.

This is the job of a designer.

This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.

So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.

Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f*cked it up to the point of having 200k subs.

And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.

I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That?s a long time.

Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system.

I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more.

Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.

I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.

So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.

Not just small changes, but rebuild it.

And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.

If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month.

It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn?t.

Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.

It?s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO?s numbers rose from 110k to 220k.

But I digress.

WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.

We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.

But a tutorial wasn?t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.

We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.

The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.

When we demonstrated it, the first comment was ?Wooooah?.?

And the producer left the room.

He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better.

We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn?t.

However, we made a mistake.

Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.

People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.

We told them. ?If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.?

It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.

So, we pushed forward.

If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I?ve ever done.

We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.

We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.

We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.

It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it.

Epoch grade f*ckup.

But.

The f*ckup was NOT the changes.

Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it.

THE F*CKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.

Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.

But the general idea was sound.

The control scheme was a good idea.

Losing the character skill system was not.

But, that?s not the point.

The point, the f*ckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.

?Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches??

Categorically, NO.

If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.

Relaunch with a new title.

Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.

You cannot change it at runtime.

BUT!

And this is a HUGE but.

Right as I left SOE, post NGE..

Galaxies was subscriber positive.

A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing.

A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I?m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.

But I?m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I?m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.

JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi F*ckups. You name it.

We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.

But we f*cking launched a godd*mned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f*cking amazing space game using the same f*cking game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERF*CKING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.

NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.

So those who think it?s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn?t swear so much?

Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don?t last forever.

Except UO. It?s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f*cked up code I wrote in 1997.

That, I am genuinely sorry for.

And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally.

A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really.

It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he?d ever played.

So, someone called him to find out some information.

They asked how long he played for.

His answer?

2 years. "

When I read this I saw a lot of insults, and a lot of justification and defensiveness.  I saw "I'm sorry" but that was between "go eat d*ck" and "I'm proud of what we did etc."  Tbh, the guy sounds extremely hostile towards players and very unremorseful for the impact of his company's actions.  At best, this apology read like "we made a mistake, but we had to, and I'm proud of it, so get over it, or go eat d*ck." 

He's rewritten the blog a few times now, maybe his apologies will get better with practice.  After reading the first version though, I can't help doubting his sincerity, even though I'm glad he deleted the most offensive insults.

---

Originally posted by ummax

---

Originally posted by musicmann

 

---

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 
They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   
the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.
So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 
It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 
I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.
/shrugs
 

---

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
 
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
 

---

 
Forgiveness is a basic quality of civilzed society. Even the penal system has a policy of forgivness in that once you do your time its over and laws that make it so that the person is protected after he has "apologised" to the system by doing his time.    Murderers are forgiven and given a chance.   Its something you should learn to do especially when someone admits thatt he screwed up.  
If you make a mistake at work do you get given another chance or raked over the coals for years on end and constantly given a hard time regardless of the fact you have been promoted, done a good job after the fact etc. 
If you spill milk on the floor and I as your wife (a female) find you dont clean it up do i spend the next 5 years screaming at you for not noticing and making a mistake or do i point it out, clean it up say my piece and move on
Forgiveness is a basic positive human trait that is a good quality to have.  Hate and anger on the other side are totally useless and serve no real purpose (except possibly to give you gas, ulcers and a headache).
 

---

This has nothing to do with forgiveness, or anger. In fact, the angriest person I see here is you.

I forgave them long ago. Others haven't. In that I am not God, it is not up to me, or my job to FORCE or berate others to forgive people. I certainly am not affected by anyone's anger -- it's all good in freedom, a freedom which YOU seem to have a problem with, so much that you need to defend wrongdoers and attack the victims because they do not have YOUR "forgiving" soul.

very very odd.

---

Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Since SOE supporters are now joining this thread saying what a nice apology was offered by Dan, here's the original version, complete with insults and compound words.  This is the "apology" we were offered.  This may explain the response much better than the twice edited version now on Dan's blog.  I'm going to try to edit some of the things that MMORPG would rightly delete, but you'll still get the idea (edits will have a *):
"Caveat - This is not an argument. I will attempt to speak honestly about these elements, to give you perspective. For those of you who want to misconstrue it, or perceive it as some ?ZOMG YOU ROONED SWG?, please proceed to the back of the room where you can quietly eat a d*ck. OM NOM NOM.

For the rest, I look forward to a well versed and intelligent discourse on the nature of a creative business, and how to better approach difficult situations in the future.

begin article here. You d*ck eaters quiet down. *om nom nom*

So, I just logged back in to discover that a bunch of you whackjobs have turned one of these threads into some misguided personal grievance with the SWG NGE.

So first.

If I have ever created something that you didn?t like or that brought you sadness, I apologize.

That is never the goal of a game developer.

However.

Let us set the record straight.

Let us set the history of the Star Wars Galaxies NGE into something that makes a little more sense to those from the outside.

First, some ground rules.

I am a game designer. I make video games. I manage teams, develop features, and turn the creative insanity that is game development into demonstrable and sellable products.

A lot of this manifests itself in the form of direct implementation. Scripting, writing, hands on content development.

I do not sit in a room and give orders. Generally, nobody I?ve worked with ever did this.

We provided a means to create something to make money.

As professional developers, it is our job to execute on these types of creative endeavors within the context of limited finances, linear time, and sometimes explicit creative direction.

Sometimes this context is direction from Raph Koster. Sometimes it is to meet a marketing need, other times it is one of business decisions.

At times, I describe it as, ?If someone asks for pink fluffy bunnies, we give then bunnies done to the best of our abilities. If we don?t like those, we can still deliver the best bunnies based off of our understanding of the marketplace.?

That is what we do. All of this is tempered with reality. Sometimes people get sick. Sometimes things take longer than we?d like. Sometimes things end up more or less fun than we intended.

This is the job of a designer.

This is what I did on UO, Galaxies, JTL and every other game I worked and am working on.

So we were given the directive to make Galaxies better.

Not just make Galaxies better, but make it succesful. Not the 200k subs it had, but really succesful. The idea was that we had the most valuable IP in the entire world, and we f*cked it up to the point of having 200k subs.

And yes, all 200k of you were important, but 200k means nothing in the scheme of things.

I worked on Galaxies for around 5 and a half years. That?s a long time.

Before we launched, I wrote the combat system, mission system, spawning system.

I wrote the combat model for JTL, implemented Content development tools and ship interior systems and more.

Hell, I implemented the original Jedi System in 2 weeks after we launched. Not because it was how we wanted it, but because we had 2 weeks to do it.

I have the understanding of where we went wrong and how. I see the misteps and how the experience was misaligned with what most people wanted from a Star Wars game.

So, when the NGE push came along, we were asked to reimagine the game.

Not just small changes, but rebuild it.

And it was needed. When we were asked, we were bleeding subscribers.

If I remember correctly, somewhere around 10k a month. LOSING 10,000 subs a month.

It was not idyllic. You can remember it as an amazing game, but it wasn?t.

Hell, all of you who recall the grand ole days of launch seem to conveniently forget that everyone quit shortly afterwards.

It?s similiar to the UO rose colored glasses. Everyone remembers the positives, but nobody remembers how unpalatable UO was before Trammel. Nobody acknowledges that after Renaissance, UO?s numbers rose from 110k to 220k.

But I digress.

WOW was out. SWG was niche and clunky.

We were asked to imagine something new and unique. To push it to the next level. Originally, it was specced as a tutorial. A tutorial paired with a new marketing push, new and grandiose relaunch that would recapture the magic that we missed when we first released.

But a tutorial wasn?t enough. We scrambled to come up with something more impressive.

We tested out a new combat system on a whim. I did a quick prototype and we discussed it internally.

The difference was the control scheme, not the rules. You clicked, You shot.

When we demonstrated it, the first comment was ?Wooooah?.?

And the producer left the room.

He came back shortly and was torn. He knew that we had to make the change. It was THAT much better.

We did a side by side comparison. We tried to play the old system. We couldn?t.

However, we made a mistake.

Somewhere during the discussions it was strongly recommended that we streamline our characters.

People wanted something simpler, more direct, more accessible.

We told them. ?If you do this, you will lose all 200k subscribers. It is that significant.?

It was explained that we would gain more due to the marketing push and relaunch.

So, we pushed forward.

If I remember the dates correctly, we did our NGE conversion in 2-3 months of solid crunch. It was some of the heaviest crunch I?ve ever done.

We had an immovable date, and an insane set of features.

We were working in parallel, maintaining old code on the off chance that we would pull the plug on the implementation.

We launched, the marketing push failed, and we lost subscribers.

It was a misread at an organizational level. Marketing, Production, community. You name it.

Epoch grade f*ckup.

But.

The f*ckup was NOT the changes.

Let me say it again, louder, for those who do not get it.

THE F*CKUP WAS NOT THE CHANGES.

Galaxies NGE made it more playable. I think it lost a lot of the Raphy goodness that makes MMOs work, and that was a profound loss.

But the general idea was sound.

The control scheme was a good idea.

Losing the character skill system was not.

But, that?s not the point.

The point, the f*ckup, the mistake that we made, was answering an unasked question.

?Can you change an MMO drastically after it launches??

Categorically, NO.

If we were to do it again, and wanted to make those types of changes, you have to make a new game.

Relaunch with a new title.

Or shut down Galaxies and relaunch for real.

You cannot change it at runtime.

BUT!

And this is a HUGE but.

Right as I left SOE, post NGE..

Galaxies was subscriber positive.

A few thousand, but it was a far cry from the 10k per month we were losing.

A lot of you were upset. A lot of you still seem to be upset. I?m sorry if you feel betrayed, or that we ruined something you liked.

But I?m proud of the work I and the rest of the team did. I?m proud of the choices we made, the direction we took. ALL of SWG.

JTL, NGE, Launch, Jedi F*ckups. You name it.

We made mistakes. We made a LOT of mistakes. We crunched, we argued, we fired people, we hired people.

But we f*cking launched a godd*mned game. We launched a SECOND succesful MMO (post-uo). We made a f*cking amazing space game using the same f*cking game engine, integrated action combat, interior spaceships and in 9 MOTHERF*CKING MONTHS, all while running a succesful, cash positive product.

NGE was done in 3-4 months by a team of people. I am proud of the work that we did, even if I am torn about the end product.

So those who think it?s about blame or credit or who ruined what or how great it used to be when kids didn?t swear so much?

Take a deep breath and move on. Times change. Games don?t last forever.

Except UO. It?s still running. And I bet people are still pissed about some f*cked up code I wrote in 1997.

That, I am genuinely sorry for.

And Finally, a telling Anecdote that I think came from Gordon Walton originally.

A cancellation email from UO came in. A diatribe, really.

It want on and on about how shitty the game was, how it was the worst piece of crap he?d ever played.

So, someone called him to find out some information.

They asked how long he played for.

His answer?

2 years. "
 
When I read this I saw a lot of insults, and a lot of justification and defensiveness.  I saw "I'm sorry" but that was between "go eat d*ck" and "I'm proud of what we did etc."  Tbh, the guy sounds extremely hostile towards players and very unremorseful for the impact of his company's actions.  At best, this apology read like "we made a mistake, but we had to, and I'm proud of it, so get over it, or go eat d*ck." 
 
He's rewritten the blog a few times now, maybe his apologies will get better with practice.  After reading the first version though, I can't help doubting his sincerity, even though I'm glad he deleted the most offensive insults.

---

Anyone who thinks the original blog is a sincere apology should try this experiment.

The next time you do something hurtful to a significant other tell them that you're sorry, but you had to do it, and you're actually proud of what you did, and that they should get over it, or go eat d*ck. 

After you've done that, come back and let us all know how that worked out.

---

Originally posted by boognish75

---

Originally posted by musicmann

 

---

Originally posted by ummax

The guy apologised and its still not accepted.   Well a bunch of people apologised and no one accepts it. 
They outline the fact that the game was pretty sucky to begin with and was failing before the CU and they tried to fix it.   
the fact that the original version was overglorified was outlined and the bleeding of subscribers was outlined.   So like any company would do when trying to improve their bottom line they made a decision and ran with it.
So after god knows how long they stil are apologising.    It does appear that something that many of us have done awhile back (forgivness for a mistake as they were mistakes not purposeful and willful attempts to screw up a game.... it was something they thought they were doing tom ake it better..) that a pocket of an old community can't forgive or forget and either move onto another game or whatever. 
It IS over.   Unless you want his real life blood or something its over. 
I see a post in this thread threatening bodily harm.   That's kinda wacked out in its own right.   Its out of proportion again.  It was just a game and its now an *old* game.   What more is there left to do? NOthing.
/shrugs
 

---

Yes the game is old now, but nobody should just forgive and forget what SOE pulled. That would give a green ligh to every other dev company to do the same. Let's remember that this goes way beyond launching a game without everything that's supposed to be in it. This was a total changing of the whole core game in itself.
 
Someone should have sat SOE/LA down and made them understand the total consequences of their actions. In my own personal opinion, they should have just fixed what was broke and not rushed the jedi proffession.
If after that, they still felt the game was not were they wanted it to be, then they should have opened one new server with the NGE concept and logged all community feedback that would have been coming in.
If the new server and NGE would have gotten rave reviews, then make the total change., but to do it the way SOE did it, was right out bait and switch fraud.
 

---

The eula clearly sais online play may be subject to changes without notice at any time. Also you can not switch and bait that which you do not own as also the eula clearly states by agreeing to this eula you herby agree that you do not own this or any other virtual items within this game from soe and La. As for fixing the game i do not think pre-cu was fixable, it was just wayyy to buggy , everytime something pre-cu was fixed a new exploit reared its ugly head that needed to be fixed, i didnt understand that then but i do now (as i was angry too until i realized) that this was the only way to fix the trash heap that was swg, I am finding it even more enjoyable now than before, me and my son just resubbed and are having a blast on bria.

---

---

Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Anyone who thinks the original blog is a sincere apology should try this experiment.
The next time you do something hurtful to a significant other tell that you're sorry, but you had to do it, and you're actually proud of what you did, and that they should get over it, or go eat d*ck. 
After you've done that, come back and let us all know how that worked out.

---

OM NOM NOM