Hi, welcome to Sandbox Parade. I would like to create this topic as a nostalgic place were we can share our favorites (either good or bad) memories from any sandbox game we have played. Why sandbox? well, because they are a endangered species. as far as i know, only EVE Online is succesful among sandbox games. despite their lack of economical success many of us long for a new and revamped UO, with all the features that made it unique, and today's technology (not only graphics, but UI, performance, etc)

So, if you have an unforgettable memory from a sandbox game you used to play (or are still playing) you like to share, this is the place. It doesnt need to be a huge or incredible thing, just something you miss on today's games. It can go from planning a complete industrial takeover to a simple conversation with friends on a galactic bar.

Only one condition aply. Must be something related to the sandbox style of the game. No raids or quests, unless they were somewhat infected with sandbox elements.

Also, i would like to make a list of all the sandbox games that developers have dare to create, and watch out their actual status.

1. Ultima Online (status = running, but it has lost quite a lot that made it special)

2. Starwars Galaxies (status = running )

3. EVE Online (status = running)

4. Shadowbane (status = unsure)

5. Ryzom (status = unsure)

6. Second Life (status = running)

7. Horizons: Empires of Istaria (status = unsure, running, but not on a good shape? updates would be welcome)

8. A Tale in the Desert (status = running 3rd iteration)

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call, Roma Victor, Linage 2, Dark and Light, Pirates of the BS, Vanguard, Seed and Neocron 2

Please, tell me your feelings about those games, and point out those that you think should alse be on the list.

ps: and dont forget to write any unforgettable memory you have about those games

what is your definition of 'sandbox'

Originally posted by lupisenparis

what is your definition of 'sandbox'

that the player can influence the game world somehow, and they have many ways to develop their characters not limited to combat (for example, crafters can advance by crafting, and do not need combat experience).

having a strong player supported industry/economy and politics is also a must.

not having levels is a nice extra, but not a real condition. although most (and the best) sandbox games get rid of classes and levels and focuss on skills instead.

I agree. Your definition of a sandbox would be helpful. People have differing views on what it means.

For me:

Second life is a true sandbox environment, not a game at all.

SWG was preCU and still is somewhat a sandbox (STYLE) game. As well as EVE online.

Ryzom, to me not really a sandbox style, more of a feel to it. Similar to SWG currently.

And shadow bane, I don't know anything about that game so I will let someone else touch on that for you.

Good to know there are others that enjoy the sandbox (style) of gaming. I will check back on this post for future reference.

Originally posted by lupisenparis

what is your definition of 'sandbox'

If they are all mostly similar then its not really a sandbox, if they differ fairly radically then its a sandbox.

I guess that doesn't really work for Eve, but you could sort of do that test in a hypothetical way.

Originally posted by apertotes

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call = psuedo sandbox, contains level system

Roma Victor = litter box

Lineage 2 = grinder, not sandbox as you have no real choice in builds or activities

,Dark and Light = worse than a litter box, even a mangy half-blind cat wouldn't piss in this one

 Pirates of the BS = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Vanguard = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Seed = had promise, met an unfortunate end so we'll never really know

Neocron 2 = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

 

In conclusion, the ability to roleplay or a large empty world does NOT a sandbox make.

 

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by apertotes

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call = psuedo sandbox, contains level system

Roma Victor = litter box

Lineage 2 = grinder, not sandbox as you have no real choice in builds or activities

,Dark and Light = worse than a litter box, even a mangy half-blind cat wouldn't piss in this one

 Pirates of the BS = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Vanguard = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Seed = had promise, met an unfortunate end so we'll never really know

Neocron 2 = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

 

In conclusion, the ability to roleplay or a large empty world does NOT a sandbox make.

 

 

Neocron is not level based,  Even if it has a really funky equation for determining levels.  Its skill/stat based
 and equipment base, although equipment is limited by skills and stats.

I would actually say that Lineage 2 is a sandbox game but a PVP sandbox game.

Each server is different with how the politics work. Each server has different types of political drama. The game is the people and the interaction between clans and alliances (and individuals) with regards to power and controlling resources.

I wouldn't say it's a sandbox game with regards to just being able to rise in the ranks of crafting alone or creating "interesting" and unique character classes and I woudln't say it's a roleplayers haven.

But if people like pvp and are not interested in quests (as there aren't a huge amount of quests, they give horrible rewards and are very poorly written with quite a lot of running around) and people are interested in a hard game (though whether or not you feel the gameplay mechanics are hard is another thing.. there are two hard grinds, xp and money) then L2 might be of interest to them.

I would have to say Horizons: Empires of Istaria (now known as Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted)

This game had the potential to be the best MMORPG ever made.

Sadly it had a horrible launch filled with problems and then succumbed to the worst managment issues (ever in MMO history I think, lol).

I wish the current owners would rewrite this game with a new game engine, updated graphics, and figure out a way to port all the existing toons over to the new game and relaunch it.  If they could do this and add some PvP to it it would truly be a next gen MMO that would beat anygame currently on the market and any game currently due to come out.

To me I would think 'sandbox' would mean a game that attached a feeling of being enclosed or restricted.  I dont understand how having diversness could equate to a feeling of 'sandbox'.

Originally posted by apertotes

Hi, welcome to Sandbox Parade. I would like to create this topic as a nostalgic place were we can share our favorites (either good or bad) memories from any sandbox game we have played. Why sandbox? well, because they are a endangered species. as far as i know, only EVE Online is succesful among sandbox games. despite their lack of economical success many of us long for a new and revamped UO, with all the features that made it unique, and today's technology (not only graphics, but UI, performance, etc)

So, if you have an unforgettable memory from a sandbox game you used to play (or are still playing) you like to share, this is the place. It doesnt need to be a huge or incredible thing, just something you miss on today's games. It can go from planning a complete industrial takeover to a simple conversation with friends on a galactic bar.

Only one condition aply. Must be something related to the sandbox style of the game. No raids or quests, unless they were somewhat infected with sandbox elements.

Also, i would like to make a list of all the sandbox games that developers have dare to create, and watch out their actual status.

1. Ultima Online (status = running, but it has lost quite a lot that made it special)

2. Starwars Galaxies (status = running )

3. EVE Online (status = running)

4. Shadowbane (status = unsure)

5. Ryzom (status = unsure)

6. Second Life (status = running)

7. Horizons: Empires of Istaria (status = unsure, running, but not on a good shape? updates would be welcome)

 

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call, Roma Victor, Linage 2, Dark and Light, Pirates of the BS, Vanguard, Seed and Neocron 2

Please, tell me your feelings about those games, and point out those that you think should alse be on the list.

ps: and dont forget to write any unforgettable memory you have about those games

Ryzom I believe is cancelled and no longer in operation.

Roma Victor is definately a sandbox, it's probably the most pure sandbox out there...however it isn't a very good game.

Originally posted by lupisenparis

To me I would think 'sandbox' would mean a game that attached a feeling of being enclosed or restricted.  I dont understand how having diversness could equate to a feeling of 'sandbox'.

The term comes from the sandboxes you play in as a kid. The only limits in a sandbox are your imagination. There was noone to tell you if you had to build a sandcastle or a sand sculpture or even use the sand at all.

Originally posted by Zorvan

Originally posted by apertotes

ok, i have doubts about whether the next games could be defined as sandbox or not: Asheron's Call = psuedo sandbox, contains level system

more opinions on this game would be helpful

Roma Victor = litter box

yeah well, as bad as you think the game is, is it sandbox or more of a mainstream game?

Lineage 2 = grinder, not sandbox as you have no real choice in builds or activities

,Dark and Light = worse than a litter box, even a mangy half-blind cat wouldn't piss in this one

yes, no the best of the games, but sandbox nevertheless, right? but, is it running still?

 Pirates of the BS = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Vanguard = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

Seed = had promise, met an unfortunate end so we'll never really know

so it is definitively cancelled, right?

Neocron 2 = level and equipment based with quests, nowhere near sandbox

 

In conclusion, the ability to roleplay or a large empty world does NOT a sandbox make.

 

 

Originally posted by lupisenparis

To me I would think 'sandbox' would mean a game that attached a feeling of being enclosed or restricted.  I dont understand how having diversness could equate to a feeling of 'sandbox'.

well, i guess from a strict gramatical point of view, it could mean what you understand, but when speaking about games, sandbox style means the opposite of what you say: diversity, freedom, variety, options, "openness" (is that even a word?)...

i have updated the OP's list with Horizons, but i would like to know what is the actual state. is it running? is it cancelled? if it is running, can it be defined as sandbox on its current style, or is it more like SWG, that once was a great sanbox concept?

also i would like more opinions on Neocron and Linage.

thanks so far for your comments. and remember to write your memories.

I vote for Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted (a.k.a. Horizons: Empire of Istaria) and Seed to be included on the list. Not as if there's a poll, but just as a recommendation. ^_^

EDIT: Istaria/Horizons is still running, under an excellent owner called Virtrium LLC. They are actively developing and supporting it, and I've heard they're even in the black financially. As for whether it's a sandbox, the only time I've felt forced to do anything in it is on the tutorial islands. Among its features are non-instanced building, uninhibited multiclassing, and somewhat respectable crafting.

Ryzom is not cancelled, merely in extreme limbo. Seed is cancelled as far as I know.

Ryzom...

A couple years ago, a group of people from the RP guild I was in did a bunch of missions around Pyr, a desert city nestled between the roots of a colossal dead tree. Absolutely nothing forced us to do the missions, or even suggested we do them. The reward was merely a small amount of faction/civilisation/tribe fame. We each could've done them alone, had we asked around for the locations of materials that needed to be harvested and such. But voluntarily grouping up to do those missions, for our own purpose and on our own terms, was the most fun "questing" experience I've ever had. We ran all over the region, carrying messages and items across the dunes, massacring animals and bandits, finding requisite materials and digging them up together, peppering our maps with landmarks, and roleplaying all along the way.

And so many more memories, of PvE invasions...participating in storyline events that set the stage for later events and watching the world change with those events (servers ended up with different storylines)...complicated politics between the factions of Kami, Karavan, Neutral, and a myriad of grey areas, and the 50v50-100v100+ territorial PvP that followed...treks between regions involving anywhere from one person meticulously braving the wilderness to dozens barging through the world obliterating everything in their path...harvesting for hours, a relaxing activity for me despite or, in fact, because of the nigh-constant effort to keep from getting killed by volatile material sources or preying creatures...collecting potentially interesting materials and then experimenting with different combinations of them in the crafting window to find out how to achieve good item stats - after 2.5 years I finally stumbled upon a combination that could produce a sword with both high damage and high speed (for its weapon type)...

Originally posted by Avos

 

Originally posted by Sovrath

I would actually say that Lineage 2 is a sandbox game but a PVP sandbox game.

Each server is different with how the politics work. Each server has different types of political drama. The game is the people and the interaction between clans and alliances (and individuals) with regards to power and controlling resources.

I wouldn't say it's a sandbox game with regards to just being able to rise in the ranks of crafting alone or creating "interesting" and unique character classes and I woudln't say it's a roleplayers haven.

But if people like pvp and are not interested in quests (as there aren't a huge amount of quests, they give horrible rewards and are very poorly written with quite a lot of running around) and people are interested in a hard game (though whether or not you feel the gameplay mechanics are hard is another thing.. there are two hard grinds, xp and money) then L2 might be of interest to them.

 

LMAO, Lineage II is nowhere even close to what most people consider a Sandbox.  It is the epitomy of a "grinder"...

Nice viral marketing attempt though  :)

It's the "epitomy" of a political player driven fantasy world.

I miss the world feel that UO had. 

lol really I love sandbox games.

Originally posted by katriell

Ryzom

A couple years ago, a group of people from the RP guild I was in did a bunch of missions around Pyr, a desert city nestled between the roots of a colossal dead tree. Absolutely nothing forced us to do the missions, or even suggested we do them. The reward was merely a small amount of faction/civilisation/tribe fame. We each could've done them alone, had we asked around for the locations of materials that needed to be harvested and such. But voluntarily grouping up to do those missions, for our own purpose and on our own terms, was the most fun "questing" experience I've ever had. We ran all over the region, carrying messages and items across the dunes, massacring animals and bandits, finding requisite materials and digging them up together, peppering our maps with landmarks, and roleplaying all along the way.

And so many more memories, of PvE invasions...participating in storyline events that set the stage for later events and watching the world change with those events (servers ended up with different storylines)...complicated politics between the factions of Kami, Karavan, Neutral, and a myriad of grey areas, and the 50v50-100v100+ territorial PvP that followed...treks between regions involving anywhere from one person meticulously braving the wilderness to dozens barging through the world obliterating everything in their path...harvesting for hours, a relaxing activity for me despite or, in fact, because of the nigh-constant effort to keep from getting killed by volatile material sources or preying creatures...collecting potentially interesting materials and then experimenting with different combinations of them in the crafting window to find out how to achieve good item stats - after 2.5 years I finally stumbled upon a combination that could produce a sword with both high damage and high speed (for its weapon type)...

Dude, that is great!!!!!!  i wish developers had played these games and knew how it felt. cmon, keep them stories comming!!!!!

ps: updated the OP's list with ATITD. i still have doubts on Horizons (there seems to be a debate about whether it could be called sandbox or not), L2 and Neocron. also, i would like even more feedback on AC. so come on, post your opinions. and dont forget your memories

I think you run into a problem with how one defines "sandbox" these days as very few really exist anymore and many of the newer players (in the last 5 years) never really experience a sandbox in its prime.

There is no, nor ever was a hard, clear definition of what one is. Nowhere is it writen in stone that a sandbox can not have loot, levels or raids. In fact, if you explore any of the old generation "sandbox" games, they all had these qualities to some extent.

IMHO, and thats all it is, an opinion, sandbox has more to do with freedom of action then game mechanics (which NEED to go hand in hand to provide that freedom)

Progress, whether its levels or classes is just that, a set of mechanics to gage the relative strength of the character. Both have their pros and cons. You could argue that skill based is "more" sandbox but that depends on how it is set up and how complex it is. Classes can be viewed as nothing more then a pre-set package of skills. In SWG, for example, you can change professions. This basically makes it an open class system. Horizons, you can mix and match "classes" and use many of the skills from all of your classes, basically making it an open skill system. It all depends on how open minded the person playing is. Personally I don't have an issue so much with the skill vs class thing. Skill based systems often are very difficult to balance as anyone can really do anything and usually end up more "cloned" feeling as everyone eventually finds the "uber" build.

Progression is also one of those double edged sword subjects. Usually one of the first things players start pissing and moaning about is the "speed" of progress. Now in games like WoW, where level cap is basically where the game begins, its a valid concern. However in a sandbox, its totally irrelevent as you "level" is usually not tied to an activity. (your effectivness is however, which only makes sense)

Now freedom of action is really what sandbox MMOs are all about but again, that changes from game to game. I think we can all agree that World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings, are not "sandbox" games. Its easier to look at why these games are not. You have no freedom of progression, everything is mapped out for you. You have no alternitive activities, combat or nothing. (WoW and LotR tie crafting to combat levels leaving you with NO Choice but to fight) worlds are built on a linear progression level design rather then a free roaming open world. (to get to area "B" you must first pass through area "A")

And the big juicy piece of meat of the sandbox is that the player or group of players can have some sort of impact on the gameworld at large. (whether economic or through some sort of PvE or PvP setup) Any type of impact. In WoW and LotR you can NOT impact the game world in anyway, everything is pre-determine, static and mechanical.

I believe a game like EVE best examplifies much of this freedom. Players can have impact on the gameworld in a wide variety of ways. Content is there but not required. Freedom of character developement exist and a wide free roaming world is availible.

Content is one of these things that haunts all MMO's, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. No content drives many players to despair that there is "nothing to do in X game". To much and everyone starts screeming its "on rails". IMHO, there are two entirely different types of players at work here. I guess IMHO, in a sandbox, there can be content (complex story driven quest) as long as the player is not REQUIRED to do it. This easily eliminates WoW and LotR's.

You could probably add a lot more to that and of course you all have your own opinions.

UO..

I was a simple lumberjack and carpenter, making whatever fetched me a good price.  After quite sometime I had gathered enough money to purchase a boat where I would fish out in the sea and dock in town to sell some fresh sushi I had made.  It was amazing just fishing and making food for people.  Of course I was 13 or so, but I felt like I was contributing and there were no restrictions to what I could do.  No parents to observe and criticize my experiments in social situations and life lessions.  Truely free.

Funny thing is, today I make Sushi O_o