Developers Corner

(assuming you're in classic MMO mode, IE grandfathering in mechanics)

there are a few very simple(as it gets) ways to balance level disparities in skill based systems.  the key factor that I focus on is the fact that you can't bring it all with you.  These balances are also going to focus on my ideal skill based system where if you wanted to you could have every skill in the whole game maxed out.  So the you only have 250 skill points to invest into skills and everyone else has 250 skill points to invest, if you have such a system in place you've already selected your balance system and my ramblings below will be irrelevent in some cases or overly limiting in others.  Now off to defining exactly what a skill involves depending on your design it could be an individual ability(IE taking all the skills in guildwars and making them individually trainable), or each skill including a range of abilities(IE a dozen moves that deal with swinging a sword really fast but at different body parts or for different effects)

Next up you need to ingrain maybe even pound the thought into your community that the max power tier(max DPS/HPS/whatever) isn't where power comes from but rather comes from your options.  In a good skill based system you can have someone who has just recently started and decided to specialize defeat someone who has mastered every skill in the game, it's just a fact of life and doesn't surprise anyone(granted Mr. Maxxed-out would have the ability to counter Mr. newbie a dozen ways in the next fight).

The first thing you should NEVER EVER EVER do is have skills that offer passive bonuses.  just to give an example  of these skills:   body conditioning(x% bonus to health per level invested), strength training(x% bonus to damage per level).  Basically such a skill completely ignores the key factor you can only bring so much into combat with you.

Next thing is gear requirements. 

the fighting differance between say a short sword and a long sword are very very different, you can't just take combat abilities designed for one and apply it to the other.  this goes doubly so for say an axe and a sword. 

now lets look at magic there are a few different types of gear requirements.  anything from having to have a focus for the magic on your person somewhere(maybe taking up your shield or left hand slot), to having to have componets inside your inventory(which ends up limiting the stuff you can bring with you).

now armor even here I'm against passive skill bonuses.  sure the armor/whatever it self should offer some passive bonuses.  However if you want to end up using anything to it's maxium potential you're going to have offer some investment during combat.  This could be anything from activating a stance that lasts for 30 seconds, to skill mechanics that are similar to 'counter spells' you see in other games.

Next thing is character balance

from normal mmos people will remeber balance as mana/rage/focus/adrenline.  basically little bars that represent the balance state your character is in.  they basically just represent the literal balance of your character.  

So how do you use this to force balance into your system.  to start with you can encourage/discourage use of a skill by setting how much balance it takes from your character.  obviously cheap cost=sweet, high cost=that doesn't look like a good idea all the time.

if you decide to use two or more balance bars(mind and body would be nice, simple and relatable) and can further encourage and discourage the use of skills in conjunction with each other.  for instance it would be stupid to only use skills that take from your body balance since that bar would always be empty while the mind bar is sitting untapped.

Now off to the wonderful world of developer constructs.  clearly the most fun thing to add, steeped in lore, and just good fun-ness for people who design.

First thing would be along the lines of how/why the hell would you do that.  For instance you can only worship one god at a time and use the handful of skills related to them, such fickle things they are.  Maybe you decided to have races a hobbit clearly wouldn't be able to use the ogre bashy stick of doom, like wise the ogre wouldn't find a use for jewelry.

now there are other limits as well, lets say you have a handful of skills related to leylines/totems/pilgrimages.   Obviously a person wouldn't be able to tap into a leyline thats on the other side of the world, a person wouldn't be able to channel more than one totem at a time,  or would they be able to make a pilgrimage to more than a few sights before related skills weakened(unlocking an aspect inside a skill).

some skills also have other requirements: mind over body type abilities would likely require recent meditation, the gods demanding worship, and collecting regeants/compants for spells.  However do not that just because there are more requirements doesn't mean it should be more powerful, it just means that these people have more options and options that are seen less often due to higher investment for similar power levels(they do gain power in the sense that these aren't something people will expect though)

Next up is the simple matter of time.

combat obviously doesn't last forever.  Depending on how you balance combat it's unlikely that it would last more than using a dozen skills, likely just 5-8 different skills.   combat blatently doesn't last for ever, even if someone has more combat choices open to them in combat than you'd expect the fact that the length that combat lasts only lets them use a handful of them.

Finally we have hard built/wall limits

This is something that shouldn't be necesary unless you want life to be a bit easier for you, which you likely do to some extent..  These concepts would fall along the lines of only being able to bring in 8 skills, stat distribution which affects how well skills work or don't, skills that require stats to be above a certain level to work at all, and only being able to have so many stances active. 

Basically it's very possible to design a skill based game with out hard limits and you have a whole bunch of options open to you.  In a good skill based system where you actually use design stuff and put a bit of extra thought into it it ends up not much harder to balance than a class based system.  Depending on your game mechanics it could even end up being easier because each skill ends up being a self contained module instead a cog in something like a clock(like in a class).  Fixing the a skill based system after release is a lot more comfortable for people as well since they can just evolve their character in another direction.

Its funny, people give you "free choice" with skill systems, only to force you not to on the second step.... which usually limits the possibilities to much less than classbased systems would have offered.

If you make two bars body and mind you force people to choose both body and mind stats, i.e. nobody can play a pure mind focussed character or a pure body character without being totally gimped in comparison to characters who use both. Thats IMHO a very bad design.

I havent seen adrenaline anywhere outside of Guild Wars. I dont remember seeing "Focus" or "Rage" anywhere, but I probably just missed that. Mana or Magicka or however you want to call it is almost common, though. Also Endurance, Fatigue or how you want to call it.

The point isn't to take out all limitations, the point is to have the players choose their own opportunity costs.  That's the core of these balance systems.

Sure there will be a few ways to lower body balance and raise mind balance.  but it's going to cost you a bit, you'll be able to use fewer skills, but you'll have access to being able to use the skills you wanted, you'll have fewer different types of disadvantages, and you'll only have to be prepared for those fewer disadvantages.

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Originally posted by Adamantine
i.e. nobody can play a pure mind focussed character or a pure body character without being totally gimped in comparison to characters who use both. Thats IMHO a very bad design.

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Yes, but there's a couple skill based games where spreading out your leveling actually hurts you, i.e. non-pures are gimped. What is needed is to find a balance between the two extremes.

In any case, skill based systems, IMHO, do give the player more freedom, even when they aren't balanced right. Also it is easier to re-balance a skill based system than having to go nerf crazy on a level/class based system.

Originally posted by Barrikor

Also it is easier to re-balance a skill based system than having to go nerf crazy on a level/class based system.

Uh, and why would that be ?

Quite on the opposite, I see classes without the option for subclassing or customization as being the easiest to fix. If you know a class is too powerful, you get all options you could ever ask for to fix that. A spell is too strong ? No problem, you can either lower the spell power, increase the mana cost, increate the casting time, add a special condition to cast it (like, only once every minute etc).

In a skill based system, you arent that free to fix things. For example, the healing spells of the guy playing "Cleric" is the same as the spells of the guy playing "Paladin". There is nothing you can do about it.

Balancing skills would be alot harder I would think....

Adamantine pointed out that both the " Cleric " type player and the " Paladin " character are both using the same heal... so you come along and raise the mana cost to balance it with some other spell.

The problem is that now while the Pali is ok, since he uses his mana during the fight only for that heal spell.  The cleric on the other hand has cast a few heals, and now is short of mana for a rez...

So you might have adjust the cost of the ressurection spell.... or boost the health return of the heal?  

 or give people more HP so less heals are used... or maybe boost armors ability to reduce damage taken...

You might have to adjust the mana return rate...

Point is that with classes there are set combinations of spells working together. You know the purposes of the classes involved ( healer for the cleric , holy warrior for paladin ).  There is a smaller number of  abilities that need to be considdered to balance the heal within those two classes.

Hrmm. that was alot longer than was neeeded, but I talk to much normally, so... whatever. Blame it on being awake for the last 15 hours with bedtime still 4 hours away.