One thing I've ALWAYS disliked with online games is PvP.  It's not that I have to compete with others who I normally don't want anything to do with, it's that when I kick their butts to kingdom come it generates all kinds of whinny "Nerf X Class!!1" posts. 

True balance should be through association of players and a hiearchy of character roles.  There exists tanks, nukers and those types which are pure DPS for a reason.  A balanced combination of roles in the different groups *IS* the only balance that's needed, not for 1 vs 1 combat. 

"PvP balance" is for whiny kids who suck so bad that they have no chance unless the other players are as bad as them. 

Please join me:  Say No To Balance! 

Let the players dictate their how kick ass their groups are, not someone who's piss poor at solo ganking.

p.s. I expect to have my ass handed to me in PvP.  If not, then something will be obviously wrong. :)

(This post was brought to you by your friendly neighborhood Mindspat)

if you don't like games which are based around pvp, this game is not for you.

Originally posted by spurk

if you don't like games which are based around pvp, this game is not for you.

Uh Duh

Originally posted by spurk

if you don't like games which are based around pvp, this game is not for you.

It's the World of Warcraft mentality of the lowest denominator that turns me off of PvP.  Nothing worse then someone thinking that no matter how skilled another player is they should always be equal.

p.s. Coming from EVE and vastly enjoying pre-cu SWG's PvP system gives me high hopes for AoC. 

This is a game where a certain amount of PvP balance is necessary -- after all, a huge part of the endgame is focused around it. Only focusing on PvE would put PvP in a secondary role here, and that's not the aim.

But *any* game can stand to do without listening to the nerf cries. It's just a matter of making sure that no class is so severely overpowered that you start seeing 40% of the server re-roll to exploit that large PvP endgame.

Eventually, nerfs are going to come, and accusations of it being only in response to nerf cries will continue. Let's just hope they're less severe.

Originally posted by mindspat

 

Originally posted by spurk

if you don't like games which are based around pvp, this game is not for you.

Thank you for the witty responce.  Are you one of those people who whine if someone beats you begging to "nerf X class"?

 

It's the World of Warcraft mentality of the lowest denominator that turns me off of PvP.  Nothing worse then someone thinking that no matter how skilled another player is they should always be equal.

p.s. Coming from EVE and vastly enjoying pre-cu SWG's PvP system gives me high hopes for AoC. 

WoW pvp = horrible, Eve PVP = good if you dont mind spending cash after you die, AOC PVP = looks good, some loading/camping issues on the technical side may need to be addressed.  Will any game get PVP exactly right?  No, not now, probably never.  I am looking forward to hearing how the Warhammer pvp goes though.

Originally posted by mindspat

 

Originally posted by spurk

if you don't like games which are based around pvp, this game is not for you.

Thank you for the witty responce.  Are you one of those people who whine if someone beats you begging to "nerf X class"?

 

It's the World of Warcraft mentality of the lowest denominator that turns me off of PvP.  Nothing worse then someone thinking that no matter how skilled another player is they should always be equal.

p.s. Coming from EVE and vastly enjoying pre-cu SWG's PvP system gives me high hopes for AoC. 

Decent developers don't rebalance classes pvp abilities due to discrepancies in player skill.  Classes should be balanced prior to adding individual skill into the equation.  I'd assume that your original title meant "Don't change the pvp balance because of baseless whining."

I understand your comments and they apply quite well to a game like EVE where players generally run in groups in PvP but in a MMORPG the idea that you can rebalance pvp by adding another person/class to your group w/ a different skill set is pretty idiotic.  The majority of PvP that takes place in MMOs will be 1v1 or VERY small groups.  EVE in this instance is the exception, not the rule.  It was designed to be based around GROUPS of players not individual characters like most MMORPGs.

Now if it's a simple case of a Rock/Paper/Scissors class balance style where Class A generally beats Class B but Class C generally beats Class A that is also acceptable.  However, with this style of class balance classes need to be balanced decently enough that Class B has a reasonable chance (maybe not a great one) to come out on top of Class A if proper skill & precaution is applied.  If you don't understand or agree with these facts about MMORPGs then maybe you'd best stick with EVE for your pvp.

I think that if they tried to balance the classes for 1v1, they would RUIN the end game seiges. This game is NOT designed to PvP alone. If you look at the real powers, they only come from grouping. A weak 1v1 class, might might kill all in group. Dark Templar's for example become more powerful when their group is suffering. People need to get out of their heads the WoW PWN NOOBS dominant class mentallity. This game is designed for group play. Let's get to 80 and play it the way it was designed to be played so we can learn the true power of the classes.

If it doesn't work in a few months... theres always WAR! WAGHHHH!

Originally posted by mindspat

 

Originally posted by spurk

if you don't like games which are based around pvp, this game is not for you.

Thank you for the witty responce.  Are you one of those people who whine if someone beats you begging to "nerf X class"?

 

It's the World of Warcraft mentality of the lowest denominator that turns me off of PvP.  Nothing worse then someone thinking that no matter how skilled another player is they should always be equal.

p.s. Coming from EVE and vastly enjoying pre-cu SWG's PvP system gives me high hopes for AoC. 

{ Mod Edit }

i played as a rogue with warglaive mainhand, ranked first in battlegroupin 2s, which is the reason i quit. i was unbeatable for 4 months straight, no matter how good opponents were they had no chance unless I did something stupidly wrong.

I whined on the forums about my own class, by your logic I'm an immature kid?

i personally hate the nerfs as i too dont dabble in PvP that often.  however as it is stated by the devs this game is about 50/50 (PvE/PvP) compared to 70/30 (roughly) in WoW.  i think the way to deal with this is to have separate abilities for PvP and PvE (just rename them and slap on some different modifiers and bam...2 different sets of abilities).  that would solve MANY problems

Um...no balance? are you seriously asking for this? Then the there will only be certain classes played on PvP servers or in BGs, seiges, w/e...if the classes aren't balanced, then nobody who PvPs will be playing the 'weaker' characters, only specific classes will be played, and those, obvisouly, are the ones that are the better ones, I haven't met anyone who likes to play a class that is worse than the others, have you? That's different than challenging classes IMO, challenging classes are the ones that are hard to learn, but once you have experience with them, you can be good...I can't believe your asking for unbalance...it's fine to be sick of the whining about nerfing...but guess what, no matter how balanced the classes are, there will always be some whiny kids asking to nerf this class or buff another....or...since you don't like PvP so much, don't do it...there are games that have good PvE and PvP that don't force you to do the PvP (and in some cases the PvE)...or just find a primarily PvE game (LotRO maybe?)...

Thats the most ridiculous I have ever heard.

First, in any good PVP classes need to DEPEND on others, to assure teamplay. But if you then would NOT make all classes equal in strength (=balanced) some classes would be totally overplayed and others would be hardly selected by any player. It just cant work, unless all classes are balanced. Merely assuming this idea is so hilarious... I mean, WHO would want to play a class deliberately who knew the classe is indeed weaker than all others in PVP?? *shakes head*

OMG people get it straight! If you were to read it correctly he DID NOT say anything about not liking pvp! if you think he did then read it again! Its really not that hard to figure out.

Secondly, I have flown with the same 5-6 people in EVE and we all play a role, and we do it well. I Don't care what class your guild plays, we will kick your ass. And no, we don't all play the same classes. We just play our classes well and the way they were meant to be played.

You think a healer should stand up in combat 1v1 with a warrior class? Seriously people, think about it.

Look we understand what the OP is saying but most of us disagree it seems. His and your idea is terrible absolutely terrible, a game shld never just be balanced around group action.

It needs to have a strong degree of actual proper 1v1 class balance or you end up with the GOD class(es) that the masses play and the ROADKILL that only those with a masochistic streak (or the idiot who goes 'there is no I in mmorpg') play.

And yes i do believe a healer shld be able to stand up to a warrior. That is the one thing WoW has done right is with the healers in TBC, they can out last and kill the dpsers. For example: Resto shaman - see them taking down rogues and warriors all the time, out last and gradually whittle away their life.

 Is the nature of PVP balance, not that one can have an oppourtunity to swing the tides in their favor? I think a highly skilled character should be able to decimate an entire group of people.
 A skilled player shouldn't  be limited based on restrictions placed on his class.

@ OP

True balance WILL be through association of players and character roles in the end. But this does not mean you can just always keep everything the way it is even in a large open beta / stress test the classes and skills developed by the game devs are not always corrected by the end of beta.

If they did it the way you would like it. If someone begin game gets an skill or ability that is too strong and allows him to take out an entire party of oponents on his own with ease. This should not be fixed? That will result everyone playing that class + a few that play support classes.

I also don't completely agree that every class should be completly stuck in their character roll this is mainly for the support classes. Even when alone an support class has to be able to defend him/herself! Sure not in a way he can kill an damage dealer but for example by putting the class to sleep or by lowering his fighting ability that he/she can get away. Also regardless of being support class they should be able to solo decently.

Even though Lineage 2 balancing was never that amazing by NCsoft what I did like about the game is the many roles classes could take. Depending on your equipment you could turn an tank in a decent DD or a DD in a decent tank. They turned support classes from heal bitches to classes that can actually do something in PvE and PVP from debuffing to holding people in place. This makes the classes much more fun and interesting to play.

But yes regardless of how powerful your class is with or without balacing done the people you run with (clan, guild, party, ally) will show your true strenght. Even with the best gear but with horrible leadership an not so well equiped clan can take them down if their orginisation is better.

Originally posted by mindspat

One thing I've ALWAYS disliked with online games is PvP.  It's not that I have to compete with others who I normally don't want anything to do with, it's that when I kick their butts to kingdom come it generates all kinds of whinny "Nerf X Class!!1" posts. 

True balance should be through association of players and a hiearchy of character roles.  There exists tanks, nukers and those types which are pure DPS for a reason.  A balanced combination of roles in the different groups *IS* the only balance that's needed, not for 1 vs 1 combat. 

"PvP balance" is for whiny kids who suck so bad that they have no chance unless the other players are as bad as them. 

Please join me:  Say No To Balance! 

Let the players dictate their how kick ass their groups are, not someone who's piss poor at solo ganking.

p.s. I expect to have my ass handed to me in PvP.  If not, then something will be obviously wrong. :)

(This post was brought to you by your friendly neighborhood Mindspat)

So I take it you have a lot of faith that game designers always get things right first time then.

The game has only just launched, balancing is both inevitable & desirable in the first few months of a game, because there are always things that get missed in beta testing. If you were talking about the developers caving in to excessive moaning a year from now, it would be different but when it hasn't even officially launched in some areas yet, it's just silly to expect no further balancing.

You also seem to have you own ideas about what classes should be able to fend for themselves & which ones should be cheerleaders cowering at the back. These are of course highly subjective, so often when developers make positive changes due to player feedback, it is the right thing to do but inevitably irritates the players who had an unfair advantage. How often do you hear of players saying, "Yes, my class needed to be nerfed as it was far too unbalanced"?

Originally posted by Kilrain

OMG people get it straight! If you were to read it correctly he DID NOT say anything about not liking pvp! if you think he did then read it again! Its really not that hard to figure out.

Secondly, I have flown with the same 5-6 people in EVE and we all play a role, and we do it well. I Don't care what class your guild plays, we will kick your ass. And no, we don't all play the same classes. We just play our classes well and the way they were meant to be played.

You think a healer should stand up in combat 1v1 with a warrior class? Seriously people, think about it.

Originally posted by mindspat

One thing I've ALWAYS disliked with online games is PvP.