General Discussion

Basically, yes, what Sovrath said.  You cannot give personalized stories without instancing the entire game.

And, yes, at that point a lot of people will say your game is no longer an MMOG.

That is why I'm doubtful.

I think there are a lot of good ideas in Citadel of Sorcery.  I also think that most people dislike such heavy instancing -- the reasons for the hate are irrelevant.  But this is why I believe that Citadel, as currently designed, has a BIG uphill climb ahead of it.  Maybe they shouldn't market it as an MMOG.

How about "Personalized Multiplayer Online Fantasy Adventure"?  I think people would buy that, and it avoids the marginally dishonest "Massively" qualifier.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

Basically, yes, what Sovrath said.  You cannot give personalized stories without instancing the entire game.

And, yes, at that point a lot of people will say your game is no longer an MMOG.

That is why I'm doubtful.

I think there are a lot of good ideas in Citadel of Sorcery.  I also think that most people dislike such heavy instancing -- the reasons for the hate are irrelevant.  But this is why I believe that Citadel, as currently designed, has a BIG uphill climb ahead of it.  Maybe they shouldn't market it as an MMOG.

How about "Personalized Multiplayer Online Fantasy Adventure"?  I think people would buy that, and it avoids the marginally dishonest "Massively" qualifier.

Also instancing is a small price to pay when you lead your own personal story.  Taking away grinding is a huge positive, and many people have been complaining about too much grinding recently. 

I, personally, have never quested in a larger group than 8 people; but that is just me.

Originally posted by katriell

 

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Originally posted by Maxl
MMOs with more open-ended character progression (think Asheron's Call, EVE, SWG)

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Want!

 

 

 

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Originally posted by Maxl
MMOs based on a quest system (think WoW, AO, CoH) for character progression

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Do not want!

 

Linear quests suck.

1. They discourage players from adventuring (finding new places)

2. They discourage social play, because everyone is so hell bent on quests,they join you only if you're on the same quest...and leave the group as soon as they have what they need.

I'll explain #1 a bit more. The linear quests I've dealt with (in Vanguard and PoBS) led me around to various places; but I wouldn't call that exploring. They say "go talk to Joe at "some place" that I've marked on your map. So you travel, spending most of the time looking at the map instead of the world in front of you. Low and behold, you arrive at a new city. Yipee. But, did you really explore and discover? No, you were merely led around on a leash.

When players spend the bulk of their time staring at their map or quest-journal, they are depriving themselves of a lot of enjoyment. And this explains, probably, why people bored so rapidly of newly released MMOs like PoBS and Vanguard...the adventure simply wasn't there.

Originally posted by DeaconX

A HYBRID is what is needed.  A huge open 'sandbox' style world that has PLENTY of random quests, all of which have a REAL story behind them and make actual realistic sense.  Also, many exploration/stumble upon quests.  BUT they should not be forced upon the player, so a player could just play in the world as they wish.

Personally, I would do away completely with 'EXPERIENCE' and instead have a different kind of progression system which rewards players for things they do, rather than grinding kind of stuff.  Overall a more 'realistic' world.

This is what games like EQ and DAoC have. I don't know what made developers run away from that formula. You had the sandbox grind feeling, but in depth quests that you could take and actually feel like you accomplished something and it took time and effort to do.

Originally posted by hanshotfirst

I've yet to play a "quest system" where you couldn't still go out and grind mobs if/when you wanted to, so I fail to see how quests in any way, shape or form detract from "freedom".

Sorry, I'm not getting the whole "linear" argument here. I think you're confusing quests with classes or something. 

Oh and btw, I don't know about Asheron's Call, but both EVE and SWG (pre-CU SWG even) have/had "quests" (they just called them "missions").

You don't get it because you're failing to see the point of those quests that are thrust upon you.

In games like WoW questing is the fastest way to level. It is a means to an end. To excel in the game you must do the quests. If you try to purely grind on the mobs it will take you much longer and you will not gain any sort of advantage from it.

Now do you get the whole "linear" argument?

Originally posted by Hexxeity

No matter how much some people SAY (or even BELIEVE) they want games to be open-ended, games without quests cannot hold the attention of the average gamer.

Games without quests do not have to be linear.  In WoW, EQ2, CoH, etc., at any given level, you have dozens and dozens of quests and story arcs to choose from.  You are never forced down any particular path, and you are never really forced to quest at all.

LoTRO does seem a little more linear to me, but you still have the option of ignoring the quests altogether.  You can advance your character through Deeds, for example.

Are you stupid? EQ, UO, SWG and DAoC are not quest driven, were sandbox MMOs and held the attention of gamers.

It seems that as the internet got bigger, and more people had access to it and PC gaming became more popular it just got filled with a bunch of lazy tards who can't figure things out for themselves and need to be pointed in a direction.

I hate linear progression, and an "end game" all together. Yes you can max your stats, but as long as there are still fun things for you to do in the game of your choosing the game does not have to be "over" .  I like games where you can choose what you want to do and when you want to do it .. and are not forced to do anything to get ahead. Where you actually have a choice as to how you want to play rather than be led around by npcs being told what to do. I like to be able to decide how and what I do in the game and be able to skip quests if I want as well. Freedom is very important in mmos.

Originally posted by Josher

I felt just as immersed in WOW and everything seemed just as much an adventure compared to UO & EQ.  The big difference was that WOW wasn't frustrating and I didn't curse the screen when I died.  I also felt like I was actually doing something besides leveling up a character.   Quests actually give you game time purpose.  In EQ it was, "so which spawn camp will I level up at for the next 4+ hours?"  In UO it was, "which skill will I train by mindlessly repeating the same exact thing over and over again."  Of course at the time, it felt cool because what alernative did I have?  There was no such thing as questing.  All you could do was grind and spawn camp.  So now that I have a choice of questing, spawn camping and grinding all in 1 game, lets just say I'll ALWAYS take the game with the most options.  UO, EQ and most MMOs before WOW had only 1 option to level up and that was mindlessly grind for hours on end, watching a bar slowly trickle upwards.  BOOOOOOOOOORing by todays standards.

So for me, WOW was more fun and more enjoyable because I spent more time fighting monsters and adventuring than fighting with lousy control, bugs, crashes and punishing gameplay mechanics ONLY designed to slow your progress down.

LAUGH OUT FUCKING LOUD!!

What do you think you're doing in WoW? You're killing X Mob for X amount of time. The only difference is you have a piece of paper that told you to go do that and will give you some extra XP for doing it.

Take off the blinders or remain clueless forever.

Originally posted by Camman321

 

Originally posted by pencilrick

 

Originally posted by Camman321

But it's only a SMALL portion of you RPGers who want that type of play. WoW is obviously the largest MMO, and it's again obvious people are content on the system WoW has.

People don't want an open ended game. People are totally satisfied on following the "yellow brick road" as you haters put it. Again, I'd rather do that than walk around for hours attempting to find one quest NPC. There's no direction, there's no help, and progression.

It's a system that works. And WoW is NOT the only one that uses it, and for some reason, the game takes the brunt of abuse.

Imagine being a new player to WoW. You're thrown into Elwynn Forest. What now? If there's no Quest Give you're supposed to talk to. WTF do you do? Walk around the 100 NPCs in Elywnn Forest until you find the quest giver? Gimmie a break. That's a very unrealistic gameplay, that isn't suited to the masses. You will never find a game with the popularity of WoW, and the system of this deadend no help, "open-ended" world.

Imagine, in Everquest, being a new player back in the day and being thrown into the town of Halas.  First, the entire ice village felt like it had many hidden mysteries, from the cellar with the intimidating sha