Originally posted by Josher

wondering around aimlessly got old over 10 years ago when I left college and realized I have a life and no time to get lost anymore.  I want to have fun and getting lost isn't fun.  Its the same reason I have a GPS in my car when I drive out of state.  Its a waste of time, not an adveneture.

This.

I don't play games that don't respect my time.

I'm there to be entertained, I'm not there to wander around lost. I'm not there to wait 5 minutes for the boat. I'm not there to yell "looking for group" for an hour.

I must be able to jump in for 30 minutes and have some fun.

I know there are plenty of college kids and people who have 10-15 hours of free time every day. I'm not one of them.

Life is short. Respect my time.

At the least, Id prefer that there were no GPS tracking in MMOs.  Its not so bad that you can pull up a mini-map, but when it has a big, flashing "you are here" sign on it that, well thats just lazy. 

Games really are MUCH more immersive when you have to pay attention to the game world, rather than the UI.  Try it on a game like Oblivion.  Dont use the map, just navigate for yourself.  It makes travelling more interesting and less like a chore.

The big issue here, is that the pace of MMOs is speeding up.  Now, its all about going through short, crappy quests as fast as you can.  We all get into this frame of mind, from time to time, and the newer MMOs encourage it.  We need more MMOs out there that will "push back" and make us slow down a little but.  There shouldnt be a rush...most of the endgames suck anyway... 

Being hopelessly lost, dying and not knowing how to get my corpse back does not appeal to me.

Time to find a new hobby...

I beleive this question is a false dichotomy.  Not that I blame the OP, its a false dichotomy that has been around since MUDs before the first MMORPG was even in development.

The problem is not the PITA mechanics.  The problem is a badly designed PITA mechanics. 

I point to Eve travel versus EQ1 travel.  Eve travel is far more of a barrier than EQ1 travel ever was.  Yet its also far less problematic because you can get everything you need to get done in a reasonable travel around your neighborhood.

XP penalties are similarly bad.  Baiscally when you die you just throw some of your time out the window.  Whereas in EvE losing a ship may or may not work that way.  It all depends on how you manage your finances.  You never want to lose a ship.  It is significant and can set you back.  But if you plan right you never waste your time like you do in EQ1 or, far worse, one of the older MUDs.

So in other words the problem is not that people get penalized its when these mechanics become actual barriers to what people want to do in the game.  Penalizing people is fine, undermining their goals is the worst thing you can do.

If you want travel to be substantial (and there can be very good reasons to do so), then don't force people to travel all over the place except for extraordinary reasons. 

If you put two different high end instances on opposite sides of the world and then make it take 30 minutes to travel between them.  Then of course your players will be pissed, because that is just plain stupid.

This is another reason why I don't understand why there is such negativity from people towards other games that they don't particularly like when they are not forced to play them like the WAR and AoC crap that gets flung around these forums or well just about any other game.

I'm completely in favor of having multiple top end games out and about doing well and sharing large pieces of the proverbial pie.  This gives people the chance to go do what they like and have fun.  The problem I think arises when the severe sense of entitlement that some people have rears it's ugly head and they start to believe that they should play just about every game and it should cater to their tastes and that it's their world and the rest of us just happen to live in it.

When people said that "variety was a spice of life" they were not kidding.

Ideas to fix what's been discussed here:

Bonus quest rewards, or progress towards a "master quester" title, for people who adventure with the minimap/compass turned off. This would have to be questing in a randomized area to prevent alt-tabbing to get a map from a website.

To compensate for the lack of features, you could give people a compass and the ability to mark their own map for the area.

Same goes for adding bonus rewards to run around without seeing little exclamation points or whatever over the heads of quest npc's.

That way it's an optional bar for people to jump through if they want to. Just being able to turn the minimap off for no benefit is a silly solution. If something is challenging it has to have an increased reward to match, or there's no point challenging yourself.

Just turn off your minimap if you don't want it. 

Originally posted by Zindaihas

By that I mean that devs have added little tools to today's MMOs in order to save you time, but these tools remove that sense of adventure or "fear" as pencilrick says in the "Losing interest in MMORPGs..." thread.

Let me give you an example.  Mini-maps on the interface have become pretty standard in MMOs.  It's understandable because it saves time, but it removes an important sense of excitement from the game.  Where's the adventure when you enter into a dungeon knowing there's no possibility of getting lost?  If you take a wrong turn and get separated from the other members of your party, all you have to do is turn around and make your way back to the other dots on the mini-map.  On the other hand, if there's no mini-map, you actually have to grope your way through the halls not knowing what my lie just around the next corner.  Could be your group, could be a terrifying mob.

But obviously, in order to gain this benefit, you have to be willing to lose another.  Are you willing to do that?

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Nope. I really don't want to waste time searching for random NPCs/mobs. The fun part is the combat, not wandering aimlessly around.

Funny, Ive always thought that combat was the weakest part of MMOs, lol.  Seriously, theres a reason that so many of the MMOs in development are working towards some form of FPS game play...because combat has always been boring as all hell.  If it was for the "persistant world" and "immersion" elements, I wouldnt even stick around.  And, of course, those are the two features that people are most eager to get rid of...

Well its going to get boring if there is nothing to do but hit mobs.

To sum up what i like seee DARKFALL.

Read all what is going to be in that game.

That game you will work to make a living.

Always something you will have to do for your people and make your money at it to.

You will want to fight the enemy off your land to keep what you made. Something to fight for ya!

Just read DarkFall!

I Bet if that game has all it says it has in it ,  then this will be the most played game of all time.

People that spend 2 hours in other mmo will spend 6 hours in  DarkFall .

Just go READ there site! Read all of it and understand it to. Dont leave till you understand everything in that game.

Originally posted by Tatum

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Nope. I really don't want to waste time searching for random NPCs/mobs. The fun part is the combat, not wandering aimlessly around.

Funny, Ive always thought that combat was the weakest part of MMOs, lol.  Seriously, theres a reason that so many of the MMOs in development are working towards some form of FPS game play...because combat has always been boring as all hell.  If it was for the "persistant world" and "immersion" elements, I wouldnt even stick around.  And, of course, those are the two features that people are most eager to get rid of...

Yep, perpetual fighting gets old kinda fast.  It's the other elements (exploration, lore, immersion) that really make an MMO work.  If only more devs understood that concept.

Originally posted by fizzle322

 

Originally posted by Josher

wondering around aimlessly got old over 10 years ago when I left college and realized I have a life and no time to get lost anymore.  I want to have fun and getting lost isn't fun.  Its the same reason I have a GPS in my car when I drive out of state.  Its a waste of time, not an adveneture.

 

This.

I don't play games that don't respect my time.

I'm there to be entertained, I'm not there to wander around lost. I'm not there to wait 5 minutes for the boat. I'm not there to yell "looking for group" for an hour.

I must be able to jump in for 30 minutes and have some fun.

I know there are plenty of college kids and people who have 10-15 hours of free time every day. I'm not one of them.

Life is short. Respect my time.

Exactly!

When I was younger I might have had the time to waste with things like long travel times or keeping a tabbed and annotated notebook of EverQuest maps in order to find out where the hell I was going, but not anymore.

I've got OnStar and a GPS in my car. Hell, my cellphone has GPS and Google Maps so if I don't know where something is, I can look it up and find the best route quickly before I even leave. Why? Because I have a life, and I don't want to waste my time wandering around lost. I'd rather find out how to get where I need to go and then get there with a minimum of hassle.

If I'm like that in real life, why would I suddenly want to gimp myself in a game by not having a mini-map or a way to get around quickly? I play these games for entertainment, and because I enjoy the game worlds that they're set in. I don't play them to be frustrated, or to be forced to waste my time traveling, or trying to find where something is. My play time is limited because of work, school, and other obligations. If a developer can't respect that, they don't get my money. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Lidane

 

Originally posted by fizzle322

 

Originally posted by Josher

wondering around aimlessly got old over 10 years ago when I left college and realized I have a life and no time to get lost anymore.  I want to have fun and getting lost isn't fun.  Its the same reason I have a GPS in my car when I drive out of state.  Its a waste of time, not an adveneture.

 

This.

I don't play games that don't respect my time.

I'm there to be entertained, I'm not there to wander around lost. I'm not there to wait 5 minutes for the boat. I'm not there to yell "looking for group" for an hour.

I must be able to jump in for 30 minutes and have some fun.

I know there are plenty of college kids and people who have 10-15 hours of free time every day. I'm not one of them.

Life is short. Respect my time.

 

Exactly!

When I was younger I might have had the time to waste with things like long travel times or keeping a tabbed and annotated notebook of EverQuest maps in order to find out where the hell I was going, but not anymore.

I've got OnStar and a GPS in my car. Hell, my cellphone has GPS and Google Maps so if I don't know where something is, I can look it up and find the best route quickly before I even leave. Why? Because I have a life, and I don't want to waste my time wandering around lost. I'd rather find out how to get where I need to go and then get there with a minimum of hassle.

If I'm like that in real life, why would I suddenly want to gimp myself in a game by not having a mini-map or a way to get around quickly? I play these games for entertainment, and because I enjoy the game worlds that they're set in. I don't play them to be frustrated, or to be forced to waste my time traveling, or trying to find where something is. My play time is limited because of work, school, and other obligations. If a developer can't respect that, they don't get my money. It's as simple as that.

Sounds like you folks shouldn't even be playing MMOs anymore then, but should just stick to video games.  You can't create a vast immersive world without having to invest in some time sinks.  If you want to get rid of travel times altogether, try DDO online.  I felt like I was in a fish bowl in that game, but hey, at least, I got to where I was going quickly.

This is where things like community and immersion come into play.  If you feel like you are really in the world in which you are playing and you have plenty of friends to talk too, then the tedious tasks don't seem so menial.  MMOs are by their very nature time intensive games.  If you try to turn them into fast food, you are more likely to end up with an upset stomach.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

 

Sounds like you folks shouldn't even be playing MMOs anymore then, but should just stick to video games.  You can't create a vast immersive world without having to invest in some time sinks.  If you want to get rid of travel times altogether, try DDO online.  I felt like I was in a fish bowl in that game, but hey, at least, I got to where I was going quickly.

This is where things like community and immersion come into play.  If you feel like you are really in the world in which you are playing and you have plenty of friends to talk too, then the tedious tasks don't seem so menial.  MMOs are by their very nature time intensive games.  If you try to turn them into fast food, you are more likely to end up with an upset stomach.

I'm doing just fine in LOTR Online and City of Heroes/Villains, thanks. And I'm also going to be trying Age of Conan when it launches.

I don't mind some time sinks, because they give a sense of scale to the world. What I mind are pointless time sinks, like forcing me to waste hours of playtime traveling across a world, or making getting around harder by not having simple tools like maps and mini-maps in a game. The original EQ was particularly bad about this, and it's been an improvement in MMO's that most of them have gotten rid of that nonsense.

Let's put it this way-- I'll sometimes get in my car and drive around aimlessly to clear my head because I find it relaxing. But I'm not about to get in my car and drive cross-country without a map or some clue where I'm headed, since that would be stupid. Same goes for my games. In LOTR, I'll often spend hours at a time just working on tradeskills and wandering around doing resource gathering, taking in the world of Middle Earth because it's fun for me. However, I'm not going to run across the world without a plan to minimize my travel times, and to get where I need to go more efficiently. That's my point.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

 

Originally posted by Lidane

 

Originally posted by fizzle322

 

Originally posted by Josher

wondering around aimlessly got old over 10 years ago when I left college and realized I have a life and no time to get lost anymore.  I want to have fun and getting lost isn't fun.  Its the same reason I have a GPS in my car when I drive out of state.  Its a waste of time, not an adveneture.

 

This.

I don't play games that don't respect my time.

I'm there to be entertained, I'm not there to wander around lost. I'm not there to wait 5 minutes for the boat. I'm not there to yell "looking for group" for an hour.

I must be able to jump in for 30 minutes and have some fun.

I know there are plenty of college kids and people who have 10-15 hours of free time every day. I'm not one of them.

Life is short. Respect my time.

 

Exactly!

When I was younger I might have had the time to waste with things like long travel times or keeping a tabbed and annotated notebook of EverQuest maps in order to find out where the hell I was going, but not anymore.

I've got OnStar and a GPS in my car. Hell, my cellphone has GPS and Google Maps so if I don't know where something is, I can look it up and find the best route quickly before I even leave. Why? Because I have a life, and I don't want to waste my time wandering around lost. I'd rather find out how to get where I need to go and then get there with a minimum of hassle.

If I'm like that in real life, why would I suddenly want to gimp myself in a game by not having a mini-map or a way to get around quickly? I play these games for entertainment, and because I enjoy the game worlds that they're set in. I don't play them to be frustrated, or to be forced to waste my time traveling, or trying to find where something is. My play time is limited because of work, school, and other obligations. If a developer can't respect that, they don't get my money. It's as simple as that.

 

Sounds like you folks shouldn't even be playing MMOs anymore then, but should just stick to video games.  You can't create a vast immersive world without having to invest in some time sinks.  If you want to get rid of travel times altogether, try DDO online.  I felt like I was in a fish bowl in that game, but hey, at least, I got to where I was going quickly.

This is where things like community and immersion come into play.  If you feel like you are really in the world in which you are playing and you have plenty of friends to talk too, then the tedious tasks don't seem so menial.  MMOs are by their very nature time intensive games.  If you try to turn them into fast food, you are more likely to end up with an upset stomach.

I *do* play video games. MMO is just *one* of the games i play.

Plus, luckily developers listen to people like us and not pad the world with boring stuff like travel time. The first time is exploring, the second time going on the same route is a chore.

Furthermore, it is my money and i damn well to spend it to games that please me. If i like the hack-n-slash & cool loot aspects of a MMO, and not the boring running around part, who are YOU to say othewise. I vote with my money and we will see who the developers listen to.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Furthermore, it is my money and i damn well to spend it to games that please me. If i like the hack-n-slash & cool loot aspects of a MMO, and not the boring running around part, who are YOU to say othewise. I vote with my money and we will see who the developers listen to.

The fact that there is more people out there like you "voting with their money" makes any other part of the community have nowhere to go since they are now a minority.

Im still searching for everquest 2 myself.

Originally posted by Illius

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Furthermore, it is my money and i damn well to spend it to games that please me. If i like the hack-n-slash & cool loot aspects of a MMO, and not the boring running around part, who are YOU to say othewise. I vote with my money and we will see who the developers listen to.

The problem with your statement is that I too spend my money on what pleases me.  It's just that self entitled pompous shmucks like you think that their way is the right way and anybody else is just WRONG.  It's because of people like you that the mmo has turned into what it is today, a giant race to get to the end where there should really be no end.  Thanks, maybe you can go over to the FPS market next and make it so that all maps are 6 foot by 6 foot squares and everybody has a machine gun with unlimited ammo and nowhere to run.

 

The fact that there is more people out there like you "voting with their money" makes any other part of the community have nowhere to go since they are now a minority.

Overexaggerate much?  An FPS with a tiny map and unlimited ammo makes the game worse.  A MMO that forces you to do tedious chores that most people just don't want to do also makes the game worse.   Haven't you figured it out yet?  The minority old timers who haven't adapted to the new market don't matter any more in MMOs.   Luckily I've adapted to the genre as its adapted to its players and am quite happy all these changes are taking place. 

well in wow i would rather it be lazy considering it takes 1983749345874 hours to level up.