General Discussion

CCP (creators of EVE Online) has proven that you can do a real PVP MMO (AoC, WAR, WoW etc. arent PVP at all) building on UO's (the founders of CCP played UO) true PVP system.

If you die in a mmo and there's no real loss, it's not real PVP.

What CCP perfected is the expanded crafting system and using crafted item as the base of 'good gear' so to speak - and when you die nothing is 'soulbound' = you can loot your targets 'corpse'. This makes crafting a central part of the games economy and suddenly you can 'PVP' in crafting and economy as well.

CCP are now developing a first person MMO based upon Whitewold's Vampires universe. Taking all they learnt in EVE, and putting it to use to make a true first person PVP MMO.

Let's hope Iceland doesn't go bankrupt before it's launched :D

Originally posted by Miklos

CCP (creators of EVE Online) has proven that you can do a real PVP MMO (AoC, WAR, WoW etc. arent PVP at all) building on UO's (the founders of CCP played UO) true PVP system.

If you die in a mmo and there's no real loss, it's not real PVP.

What CCP perfected is the expanded crafting system and using crafted item as the base of 'good gear' so to speak - and when you die nothing is 'soulbound' = you can loot your targets 'corpse'. This makes crafting a central part of the games economy and suddenly you can 'PVP' in crafting and economy as well.

CCP are now developing a first person MMO based upon Whitewold's Vampires universe. Taking all they learnt in EVE, and putting it to use to make a true first person PVP MMO.

Let's hope Iceland doesn't go bankrupt before it's launched :D

...dude. Death in WoW has losses. Screenshots of /flex over a dead corpse is humiliating when posted on the forums, thus can cause emotional and mental issues like truama or /gamequit. :D

As recently discussed, Twink'd 12-year-old pwns leveling 40-year-old newb, thus /gamequit and /wowsux.

Originally posted by IShootBlanks

If wow is easy mode, why do people have to read up on raid bosses before they even attempt to try them?

Why does wow have such a large database for game mechanics alone?

Why are addons necessary if the game is so easy? Addons just prove how hard a game is. Without these addons, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to attempt to down any raid bosses at all. Nobody would know how much threat they are generating, or who has debuffs that need immediate dispelling? Or when the bosses will use their deadly raid wipping skill. Addons only make the game slightly easier, ultimately it comes down to player reaction, the ability to multi task and co-ordination.

Those who call wow ezmode, are probably the pitiful soulds who are still doing their 5 man instances. Just remmeber one thing, 5 man instance are NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING compared to 25 man.

You and the raiders are not playing "WoW ezMode", but  "WoW++ Raider".  Is a different game, with a different interface. And I guest is not easy, but maybe is hard, but still easier than other raider games.

If you need a mod to raid, that means the basic interface is soo dumbed down, is unnapropiate, and that fit with the idea, wow is a dumbed down mmorpg.

There is so much hate and misinformation in this thread.  It's hard to believe so many long time gamers can be so illogical.  It's like a friggin Jihad up in here.

I've been playing MMOs for over 10 years now.  I've played most of the major industry changing games out there.  All of this experience and time with WoW leads me to the conclusion that while it is indeed easier while in the level treadmill and pre-raid game, it is definitely just as hard in the raid scene as EQ was.  But everyone knows this pre-raid easy-mode is a big part of what makes WoW so successful.  Is it bad?  No.  Does it appeal to everyone?  Of course not.  Will people realize this and accept it for as much without hating it?  Haha!  Read this thread to figure that out.

By the way, WoW raiding is probably harder than EQ raiding, but there's a difference that actually tips the scales back to EQ.  My friend and I (we both raided quite a bit in EQ) came to the conclusion that what makes WoW raiding actually easier are the add ons in WoW like the threat mods and other helper mods.  In EQ you don't have any of these, so you have to learn intuitively how much threat you've generated, etc, and also watch the mob and the text for any hint they're about to pull off their signature moves.

So it's not really that WoW raiding was ever meant to be easier, but the mod community has really made it much easier.  Then again it is true that one person screwing up in a 25 man will wipe that attempt, which is not true in EQ due to unlimited res in battle.

In conclusion, I used to be a blood-frenzied WoW hater.  I wanted it to fail because so many 'Diablo kiddies' played it, but you know what after playing it and raiding into the high end, it's actually a really good game.  It's got difficulty for those that like it.  The only thing I don't like are the farming for raid consumables and the faction grinds.

So I would say stop being so biased, and actually look at the game from all perspectives.  It's really impossible to argue that WoW is anything but a good game.  Yes it doesn't have every aspect of great gaming covered, but then again it's not trying to.  Look at the game for what it is, and you can't see anything but an amazing game rivaling it's fore-father EQ (which we all know is another amazing game).

Originally posted by Thunderous

You can say whatever you want to defend WoW, here is why it is successful...

1.)  Kids can compete with adults.  WOW REQUIRES ZERO SKILL OR THINKING.

2.)  CPU specs are low.

That's why.  The game is built for a child to navigate, women can get into it as well.  It's like the Super Mario Brothers of the MMO world.  It reaches ALL genre of people.  it just has an enormous customerbase to pull from.  My friends 10 year old was getting addicted to it so he grounded him from it.  The 10 year old had several toons with elite levels...

Personally, I want to play a game with adults, not kids.  WoW isn't for me.  However, WoW clearly is for 10 million other people.

Children, women, Asian subscribers, and first time MMO players can easily get into this game.  That is why it is so successful.  Plus, Blizzard provides quality content and a very dumbed-down level.

Gee, thanks pal. Try that line out on the next girl you wish to date--I'm sure she'll be charmed.

Yes, I started with WoW. It was my introduction to the world of gaming. When I was studying computer animation, I watched the guys in the lab playing the beta and it looked like fun. The thing however the tipped me to actually try out the game was how Blizzard ended the beta. If anyone remembers that far back, rather than simply post a message saying "Our beta testing period is now over", the developers simply let loose hordes of impossible-to-kill creatures into the world and let the mayhem ensue. We sat in the lab just laughing our asses off as we watched players feebly attempt to band together to try and take these things down.

In short... WoW has a sense of humour. It's a GAME and it knows it.

As a CG junkie, I have been trying to find other MMORG games with better graphics to get into, but I always end up going back to WoW for the simple reason that, unlike much of its competition, it doesn't have a big ol' stick up its butt.

If that makes it accessible... if that makes it "carebear"... fine and dandy with me. Please point me to other games that aren't going to treat us evidently *inferior* female players like dirt.

Originally posted by nethervoid

There is so much hate and misinformation in this thread.  It's hard to believe so many long time gamers can be so illogical.  It's like a friggin Jihad up in here.

I've been playing MMOs for over 10 years now.  I've played most of the major industry changing games out there.  All of this experience and time with WoW leads me to the conclusion that while it is indeed easier while in the level treadmill and pre-raid game, it is definitely just as hard in the raid scene as EQ was.  But everyone knows this pre-raid easy-mode is a big part of what makes WoW so successful.  Is it bad?  No.  Does it appeal to everyone?  Of course not.  Will people realize this and accept it for as much without hating it?  Haha!  Read this thread to figure that out.

By the way, WoW raiding is probably harder than EQ raiding, but there's a difference that actually tips the scales back to EQ.  My friend and I (we both raided quite a bit in EQ) came to the conclusion that what makes WoW raiding actually easier are the add ons in WoW like the threat mods and other helper mods.  In EQ you don't have any of these, so you have to learn intuitively how much threat you've generated, etc, and also watch the mob and the text for any hint they're about to pull off their signature moves.

So it's not really that WoW raiding was ever meant to be easier, but the mod community has really made it much easier.  Then again it is true that one person screwing up in a 25 man will wipe that attempt, which is not true in EQ due to unlimited res in battle.

In conclusion, I used to be a blood-frenzied WoW hater.  I wanted it to fail because so many 'Diablo kiddies' played it, but you know what after playing it and raiding into the high end, it's actually a really good game.  It's got difficulty for those that like it.  The only thing I don't like are the farming for raid consumables and the faction grinds.

So I would say stop being so biased, and actually look at the game from all perspectives.  It's really impossible to argue that WoW is anything but a good game.  Yes it doesn't have every aspect of great gaming covered, but then again it's not trying to.  Look at the game for what it is, and you can't see anything but an amazing game rivaling it's fore-father EQ (which we all know is another amazing game).

Yeah raiding in wow is pretty tough (especially if you do it prenerf). You're right about the mods making raiding signifcantly easier. However, blizzard has stated that it designs encounters knowing players have access to these mods. Some abilities, like archimonde's fear, is on a cooldown but when he does it is random. His doomfires, are random and players have to react to that.

Vael, considered one of the most difficult bosses pre-tbc would be a joke now because of threat meters. Those didn't exist when guilds were first doing vael. If threat meters had existed when BWL came out, Vael would not have been designed like it was. However, BWL was the first time managing threat became supremely important. Broodlord, vael, and the three drakes all put threat to the forefront of raid encounters. AQ and naxx took it to the next level and thus modders started creating threat meters.

Imo, intuitively knowing your threat sucks. How in the hell do you know how much tps your tank is doing? Some people hate threat meters, but I have found it to be the most incredible dps tool (and for tanks as well). I guess I'm spoiled now, but not knowing your threat will be so alien when I try my next mmo...

Originally posted by Elikal

We all have to admit it, whatever we feel and think about WOW, it overshadows all we do and see it here like a giant. Now we as small ants can hate the mountain, but for the time being it will be there. My own personal stance towards WOW is entirely neutral, I dont hate nor love it. I played it about 2 months or so up to level 45 (Nightelf Druid), mainly because a good RL friend was there daily, but it never appealed me enough to stay. But since then I watched it closely and get regular reports and watch it with friends playing.

There has been much rumor and hearsay spread about WOW, wether in praise or condemnation. Anytime you enter a beta, you can bet a VAST time of OOC chat is about WOW. It seems even those who hate it cant stop talking about it, and thats some not so small success in itself. I mean, the sheer numbers must be disheartning for every MMO developer to begin today. How can one stand in the face of 10 million subscribers? No matter how cool and smooth they talk I am sure inside they are all in "shock and awe".

 

Lets start to take down some myths about WOW.

- WOW was so bug-free and complete

We hear that myth often. Sure, it wasnt bug ridden like Vanguard, but the truth is, it was FAR from bug free. When I spoke to friends who were in since the first days, and compared it to the first days of EQ2 we didnt find such a big difference. Sure, WOW caught up with most bug soon enough, but other MMOs did that as well. Like all MMOs, many features, especially central one like the skill tree came MUCH later and were NOT in the game at launch! Other features they spoke about, like housing, never ever entered the game.

- WOW is easy and carebearish

Sorry, but thats blatant ridiculous. It is true WOW has a much easier learning curve. It has a great tutorial and leads new players slow, step by step into the game. But ask anyone of the high end players, wether they go to difficult dungeons or raids or PVP, to get all that high end stuff is a LOT of HARD WORK. It is true there is something for less versed players, but all high end gear is attained only but very hard gaming.

- WOW is for kids only

Likely the most stupid assumption. First, every experience with players shows me, there is nothing wrong with kids in the first places. Older ppl are by chance just as immature or aggressive than kids. And beyond that, its just not true. There are a LOT of older people, parents especially playing with their kids or big raid guilds with ppl in their 20ies to 40ies. Its merely a myth. On the contrary, if WOW has accomplished ANYTHING in that matter, it is that OLDER people suddenly started to play a MMo who never before had!

 

So then, what DID World of Warcraft make so succesful? Well, its five simple things, no real mystery here.

1.) WOW is playable by EVERY computer.

You might say you dont like the comic style, it isnt my thing either. But currently LOTRO has proven that even with low polygon counts you can create VERY beautiful game worlds due to todays standarts and STILL make a MMO relatively broad accessible. Its just very difficult when a game like once EQ2 or later Vanguard only runs *somewhat* on high end machines at launch. And as I said, you CAN make beautiful landscapes with less demand, see LOTRO landscapes.

2.) WOW has wiped out all non-fun elements

Its something of a mystery to me, why so many developers STILL cling to elistist definitions of MMO gaming and the whine when only a few hundred ppl are on their servers. So many MMOs still have this concept you have to go a long pathway to find and begin the fun. Be it travel time, boss mob respawn timers or quests in your vincintiy. When you play WOW, you can log in and just START the fun, you dont have to read lengthy internet walkthroughs just to know what to do! You dont need to travel many hours over the world to find your group. There is always something to do RIGHT THERE AND NOW. Surprise, surprise, but most *working* ppl dont enjoy wasting their time with tedious things.

3.) WOW offers something for all ranges of difficulty

Again it eludes me why both devs and gamers are so religiously fixated that a game is either carebear OR hardcore. Why can a game not offer something for ALL levels of difficulty. Thats what WOW did. You can do something if you have just one hour and you are a Mom who barely has used a computer for a short time, and also if you are a MMO geek playing for years and aim for that uber raid prize. There are very difficult to attain long-term rewards who need many months of work and short-term goal, giving you just some small fun reward for that one hour you had. So many games only offer mid and long term rewards. Those who have just one or two hours end mostly with a few badger claws or skeleton bones for the vendor. EQ2 is particularly PLAGUED with this awkward philosophy, and all follow-up games like VG. People want something small, even if only symbolic for their small time they sacrifice, they dont want to log out with empty hands. It doesnt mean those with much time and effort to contibute dont have high goals, but unfortunately many gamers are unable to jump over this merely ideological gap.

4.) WOW always has a new, higher toy to fight for

I find this the most evil and disgusting part about WOW, seriously. One of the MMOs I loved most was City of Heroes, because it had NO items and gear at all! No greed, no comparision, no hamster-wheel run for the new EVEN BIGGER shoulderpads! But it is of course a part of their success, like it or not. You always have some new toy for farm faction for. Really evil. But it works, at least in numbers.

5.)  The WOW world is easy to get into

If you enter the world of Azeroth and play one of their many races, you have a sort of cultural reference which is very easy to understand, a social code which is plain and direct. Take for example Trolls. If you see how they walk and dress, how they live and speak, you get a feeling for them right away. They are very archetypical, somehow like a mix of Raggae-beach-hash-smokers and punk crossover. Its something you instantly recognize as a stereotype, and WOW plays with those stereotypes ideally. Its something everyone can identify somehow, not just some few. If you take AoC, for instance, its all a very grim and fucked up world. Now some may like that, but the scope of characters and cultures to chose is WAY narrower. And you need much more specialized knowledge to get in, as with many other MMOs. Its more the worlds mental and cultural design which is cartoony in WOW than the mere look.

Now you may all like these points or not, the fact is, they can not be repeated nor can they be nullified. WOW is going to stay, and its going to be "king of the hill" for a long time. Thats a view I dont really like, because despite the several good things WOW has brought to the MMO genre, it also prevents a