General Discussion

Seriously.  What is so fun and rewarding about raiding that it is now considered a basic element of any new MMO?  Why is that usually the big "end-game" and why is raiding something lower-levels demand be open to them as well?  Is it because that's the only thing companies can think of for an "end-game"?

I remember in EQ1 it just seemed to eventually happen.  I don't think it was anything originally formulated really.  Just people got so high, so fast (relatively fast... compared with what Verant thought was fast, not compared to WoW), so they created "impossible" enemies.  They turned out not to be so impossible when faced with 10 groups of 6 players each all informally linked. 

I just thought of this reading through a bunch of unrelated posts... none of them having to do with raiding, but raiding was brought up as something that absolutely must be accomidated for.   Why is that? 

Because it's fun.  What else is there that is harder than grouping?

Teamwork I guess. Forces players to organize into guilds and social structures. A player connected to a social network in game is much more likely to continue paying the monthly fees.

Originally posted by mrudis

Seriously.  What is so fun and rewarding about raiding that it is now considered a basic element of any new MMO?  Why is that usually the big "end-game" and why is raiding something lower-levels demand be open to them as well?  Is it because that's the only thing companies can think of for an "end-game"?

I remember in EQ1 it just seemed to eventually happen.  I don't think it was anything originally formulated really.  Just people got so high, so fast (relatively fast... compared with what Verant thought was fast, not compared to WoW), so they created "impossible" enemies.  They turned out not to be so impossible when faced with 10 groups of 6 players each all informally linked. 

I just thought of this reading through a bunch of unrelated posts... none of them having to do with raiding, but raiding was brought up as something that absolutely must be accomidated for.   Why is that? 

2.  Because long standing, large guilds who base their self worth on the exclusive nature of the raiding end-game put pressure on devs to accomodate their wishes at the expense of everyone else.

And I think you're right about EQ1.  I'm pretty sure that raiding was an unforseen development in that game.  Originally there was Naggy and Vox for "end-game" content.  I'm pretty sure they were intended to be dealt with by the usual six person group.  It's just that they were meant to be very, very difficult for a 6 person group to beat. 

So, naturally, the players started taking more than six people and suddenly the encounters were much easier.  The dev's response was to increase the toughness of the encounters.  So the players took more people.  So the devs made the mobs tougher.  And players took even more people.  And thus raiding was born.

And now we have to watch developers ruin game after game with that most boring and un-fun playstyle because a tiny fraction of mmorpg players discovered that, because most players don't have the time for it or the willingness to endure the boredom of it, it gives those who do have the time and dull wittedness to endure the boredom an e-peen ego boost.

I would not say that its the staple of all MMOs, but the PVE centric MMOs.

In PvP centered MMOs, for example DAOC..sure there are raids, but it is NOT the staple nor focus of that game.

Its the easiest way to create endgame content that will keep the most players playing the game for years and years.

Its all down to earning money. Raid dungeons are very very cost effective when you compared development cost compared to the revenue they create.

   Raiding has become a staple mainly due to the gear awarded, not so much the fun (though for many it is fun as well).

  Casual players well seldom see 2-3 nights of raiding/week, and yet some (if not all) of the highest gear is found there.

  So the complaint is usually from the casual players, envious of those who have the time/effort involved. I am not implying this in the OP's case, as it would only be speculation.

  Those who do raid alot with guilds or friends tend not to mind it since they enjoy it and have the possibility of acquiring those items.

  As to the balance it has between casual and hardcore gamers...the difference is huge, but how else would you reward those with more play time than the casual player? More content/story but without tangible rewards? It isn't realistic from the raider's p.o.v.

Maybe they should only allow the raiding gear to be used in raids and the PvP gear (in some games) to be used in PvP only....but that would cause even more of a debate. 

Put yourself in a developers shoes.  Suppose you got a loan from a bank or investor for millions of dollars and they wanted you to make a game that would entertain thousands of people at a time for years. They give you a few years to produce it.  Now your company needs money to pay off that loan soon.

Your game has a fair amount of content but after about a month of playing, your playerbase is screaming boredom. Why? Becuase they have maximized their level, they consider the game "won".

How do you challenge them after they reached and surpassed all the barriers you put up?

The easiest method is raid content.  Similar to a lottery, you get a rare chance to have items no one else has, unless you overcome this type of content. It isn't a perfect answer, as many from these boards will tell you.

- Raids provide a means for players to keep playing a game.  A decade ago in the EQ1 days, it was considered the ultimate achievement because of the organization in forming a raid, organization in completing the run and time involved to complete the run.

You got better ideas?

PvP - Good direction. DAOC and EVE proved that. However, meaningless PvP brings out the ugly behavior or ganking, griefing, camping players.  So games that throw in PvP as an afterthought or expansion do not get much bang for their buck.  To be sure, pure PvP games do not see the longevity as PvE games do.

Player created content - do not know too much about this one. Only game I know that offers it extensively is Ryzom. City of Villian expansion has some player base content which can be raided but thats about it.

Strictly my opinion, but i believe that raiding is what destroys mmo's. It divides developer time and resources, stretches real estate too thin between the player types and creates divisivness between people as well.

Looking strictly at EQ1 prior to raidmode, the game was very different. Sure, people grouped up outside of raidmode to kill vox/naggy, but that was a once a week deal. People loved getting together for these kills, but it wasn't the formula for success. Dungeons were.

People expanded on the theme a bit when Plane of Fear was opened up. It offered more of a chance to get together to delve into the plane. Still, only one group per kill got exp and it had to generate a lot of honesty when it came to dividing loot.

Then came raidmode. People's tempers changed, and their idea for what was considered "fun". This forced the dev teams hand, forcing them to give more and more to the raiding types, who burned through content faster than it could be produced. Why soe didn't have the foresight to see the way things were going is beyond me.

Anyway, to tag along with things, i believe there are two crowds in raiding itself. You have the energetic, intelligent types who work hard at putting raids together, coordinating efforts and trying to please a lot of people at once. Then you have those who ride the coat tails of others work. People who personally don't care about the success of a guild, they are just there to get theirs so they can be ahead of the curve. This type is poisonous to any guild in any game.

In my personal opinion, i think raiding belongs in rts mmo's and not in traditional ones.

I think its a social thing.

Or to be more specific social organizations tend to get more attention even if they are not at popular.

For example at the University I went to for my Bachelor's degree the Helenic stuff, fraternity and sorority, was not very popular, probably less than 25%.  At the other major state school the Helenic stuff was very popular and ingrained in the social atmosphere, ie. the good parties were frat parties whereas at my school the good parties were usually non-frat parties.

Yet both schools had the same official support for greek stuff.  The various frat type people tried to act like it was the big thing and important even thoug no one cared.

Having been to various schools and getting a grad degree at a different school I noticed that the more the frats can corner the social scheme and convince people they are important the greater their enrollment.  And the more they claim to be the coolest thing in the world.  Even though from what I can tell most people actually do not like the frat scene and if given a real choice would not join a frat or sorority.  Further frats tend to