Originally posted by kaishi00

I don't think the author's argument have as much to do with certain people's computer or the game's engine, as much as it has to do with funcom aiming at a very small minority of the population.

from a buisness standpoint, especially MMORPGs, you should make it so you can get as many people as possible, it's built on a community. If only a small % of people can even play the game, you already started off wrong. Saying how people's machines would catch up later isn't even a valid argument, that's LATER, the game's dead later if you don't start off strong.

Not sure if you were talking to me but thats what i was saying. It has to be for the NOW in MMO s people will quickly move on and especially now with so many MMOs on the horizon.

god another lame aoc thread by a poster i've never even seen in the WAR forums before...*sigh* ... this is becoming annoying now its enough ... if the aoc suxxor threads dont' stop coming here ... drawing the poor harried aoc fans out from their own forum to cause trouble...i'm going to seriously consider stop coming to mmorpg.com     Its like the moment a game has something bad happen people flip out and go to the supposed 'competitions' forum and start all these BS pointless threads...lets talk about WAR...this is the WAR forum after all.

Originally posted by elvenangel

god another lame aoc thread by a poster i've never even seen in the WAR forums before...*sigh* ... this is becoming annoying now its enough ... if the aoc suxxor threads dont' stop coming here ... drawing the poor harried aoc fans out from their own forum to cause trouble...i'm going to seriously consider stop coming to mmorpg.com     Its like the moment a game has something bad happen people flip out and go to the supposed 'competitions' forum and start all these BS pointless threads...lets talk about WAR...this is the WAR forum after all.

On a note as I have said many, many times on this forum if you expect to run Warhammer or AoC on a 5 year old WOW rig without upgrading anything, expect to have low performance and a lot of issues. A lot of people do not realize that upgrading is a necessary evil in the gaming industry, and if not done on occasions (don't have to do it every year) will bog down your performance big time in any game.

Originally posted by urbanmonkey
...

3. Releasing a game that requires a high end computer to run at medium settings goes against the whole point of an MMO ....

I agree 100%.

This is one of the biggest reasons WoW is so popular.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if more people can play it, more people will play it.  Good lord that’s like 1 + 1 = 2. 

And until WAR, Blizzard was the only company that figure this out.  Makes you wonder what these people are smoking.

Originally posted by Kilmar

When I want a game with wow graphics, I play on my old Amiga =(

I never had an Amiga, I’m still very sad about this.   I loved all those demos people would make.  Man those were good times in the computer world.

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Originally posted by baso80

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Originally posted by Kilmar

When I want a game with wow graphics, I play on my old Amiga =(

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Yes you do that. The MINORITY of players would agree with you.

The rest play what they think is fun out there. WoW, if anything, has proved that.

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Uh, I'm sorry but we don't need crappy graphics engines just to play MMOs.

WoW's engine is great to run on anything but it's also 3 years old and looks like crap. The problem with funcom is they are terrible at creating a engine that can perform on ANY machine, not just top end machines. They proved this with AO and are showing us they didn't learn a thing with AoC.

DAoC ran fine on most PCs of the day and looked decent. I suspect WAR will do the same... but it certainly doesn't look like the junk of 3-4 years ago.

Originally posted by Tonev

 

Originally posted by elvenangel

god another lame aoc thread by a poster i've never even seen in the WAR forums before...*sigh* ... this is becoming annoying now its enough ... if the aoc suxxor threads dont' stop coming here ... drawing the poor harried aoc fans out from their own forum to cause trouble...i'm going to seriously consider stop coming to mmorpg.com     Its like the moment a game has something bad happen people flip out and go to the supposed 'competitions' forum and start all these BS pointless threads...lets talk about WAR...this is the WAR forum after all.

Elven, no one is forcing you to read his/her posts (I hope), and if you see it as a problem thread send a moderator or admin a pm "it's not that difficult". His thread is clear, concise, and true of what I have read and noticed with people in the AoC community as well.

 

On a note as I have said many, many times on this forum if you expect to run Warhammer or AoC on a 5 year old WOW rig without upgrading anything, expect to have low performance and a lot of issues. A lot of people do not realize that upgrading is a necessary evil in the gaming industry, and if not done on occasions (don't have to do it every year) will bog down your performance big time in any game.

It bleeds into every thread here otherwise I wouldnt' get pissed off.  Reporting does absolutely no good.

One of those classic catch 22 scenario's...

Build the game to really look and feel next gen OR build it to be playable by the masses.  It's often difficult to do both.  In either case, gameplay or content shouldn't be sacrificed for 'cowbell'.

Some people will simply not be able to play new games.  A system that is 4-5 years old should be upgraded (either at a component level OR an entire system upgrade).  If that's not possible, then hopefully they can try to make adjustments to game settings to at least make it playable.  But they shouldn't expect to be able to really 'crank it up'.

A system that is less than 4-5 months old should be able to run any game.  Obviously there are a great deal of variables to be considered from system to system, but a current (newish) system shouldn't choke or sputter on an MMO...ever.

Originally posted by elvenangel

god another lame aoc thread by a poster i've never even seen in the WAR forums before...*sigh* ... this is becoming annoying now its enough ... if the aoc suxxor threads dont' stop coming here ... drawing the poor harried aoc fans out from their own forum to cause trouble...i'm going to seriously consider stop coming to mmorpg.com     Its like the moment a game has something bad happen people flip out and go to the supposed 'competitions' forum and start all these BS pointless threads...lets talk about WAR...this is the WAR forum after all.

B. While I do not tend to write often, I am a daily reader of this forum. I don't see the relevancy of me being a "new" face on the block.

C. I didn't claim AoC is the "suxxor". I merely pointed out some things that I hope and believe EA Mythic will learn and implement.

Don't stop coming to mmorpg.com just because of me. I kinda like the doom cat.

Can i know what's the specs of your computer UrbanMonkey? and if you are following this games since 2 years ago, you should know that they are more demanding in terms of Hardware. Couldn't you had save some money in those 2 years time to buy a new Rig? Cpu+Graphics+Mem+mobo  is quite cheap nowdays.. with 500 euros you can get something nice (excluding monitor).

Set your graphics to low and you will be fine.

<modedit>

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

Set your graphics to low and you will be fine.

<modedit>

Whats the point of releasing a game where 80% of the players have to lower their graphics to LOW.

It's Vanguard all friggin over again! I really wonder where some people have been for the last couple of years, spouting the same crap over and over learning nothing from what happened.

You call that guy pathetic and suggest he turns his settings to low, maybe he doesnt want to play a game where you have to turn it down to EQ1 level of graphics just to play the damn thing??

This will cause people to leave the game in droves, many people are buying the game thinking their going to play the game with the same look as the videos - they should know better but they don't - this alone will mean a huge disappointment to people.

Again Funcom has NOT learned the lessons of vanguard both on its level of graphics and its buggy release.  AoC is such a disaster waiting to happen its ridiculous.

<modedit>

Originally posted by Vortigon

 

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

Set your graphics to low and you will be fine.

<modedit>

Whats the point of releasing a game where 80% of the players have to lower their graphics to LOW.

It's Vanguard all friggin over again! I really wonder where some people have been for the last couple of years, spouting the same crap over and over learning nothing from what happened.

You call that guy pathetic and suggest he turns his settings to low, maybe he doesnt want to play a game where you have to turn it down to EQ1 level of graphics just to play the damn thing??

This will cause people to leave the game in droves, many people are buying the game thinking their going to play the game with the same look as the videos - they should know better but they don't - this alone will mean a huge disappointment to people.

Again Funcom has NOT learned the lessons of vanguard both on its level of graphics and its buggy release.  This game is such a disaster waiting to happen its ridiculous.

<modedit>

Nah there's plenty of people willing to follow the Boob n Gore master into the fiery pits of failure, if that is indeed what happens. PaRoXiTiC is probably a 14 year old who would gladly do said action. I agree with the OP, but there's ALOT of people who ignore it and just want to play because it feels so new and good. Good for them, I want more than one big kid on the block. AoC = 200k subs, WAR = 400k or more (over time for both of course).

Originally posted by Mooon

 

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by urbanmonkey

Well, actually it proved several things:

1. 2008 video cards are just not powerful enough to run and MMO using "realistic" graphics engine. At least not in an MMO. I mean look at the 88800 Ultra. A card released 18 months ago and still nothing can beat it. I remember times where you bought the best card only for it to be crap a year later. Sure Crysis looks great at full settings but only 0.1% of PC gamers have a rig that can run that decently (read MAX settings in DX10). And Crytek only had to deal with the engine and AI. No quests, no balancing, no crowded areas. In short, do the decent thing and stick to cartoony graphics as in WAR, LOTRO and WOW.

2. The best part in an MMO is the fact that you feel like you are a character in a parallel world. A seamless world just waiting for you to discover it. So what is the last thing you need in it? Loading screens. That is your greatest enemy. And AoC is basically a loading screen experience spiced up with some gameplay. I kid you not. That is why with all its shitty graphics people still play WOW. You can take a horse and run from Booty Bay to the Eastern Plaguelands without ever seeing a single loading screen. Try that in AoC.

3. Releasing a game that requires a high end computer to run at medium settings goes against the whole point of an MMO (FYI the first M stands for Massive). Anyone with a computer older than 2 years will not be able to play this game at all. Sure some people run dual 8800 GTS in SLI mode, but even them don't run the game very smoothly. These problems can be reduced after release, but a crappy game engine is a crappy game engine.

If WOW can avoid the loading screen plague and have the game running on average machines, it will have a decent shot at success. If the gameplay and combat are good of course :)

I almost wish AoC was done in the art style of WoW, but with the flare of a Savage Sword of Conan graphic novel.  That way it could be seamless like WoW and probably run way smoother than it does now.  

These graphics maybe cartoony, but these graphics don't drag a computer to its knees.

This is why WAR has beaten AOC now. WAR has everything and more to offer in the PVP/RVR stakes than AOC including an open rvr server just like AOC ffa server but most of all it has graphics like this... Be quick because this vid wont be on these forums long ...

 

This is the winning formula of the day..Mexican standoff..lol

www.dailymotion.com/error1987/video/8872555

3mins / 4mins 10 secs. looks like invisible walls on those maps. pretty linear and the video wasnt that impressive to be honest... everyone looks the same

Originally posted by GreenChaos

Originally posted by Kilmar

When I want a game with wow graphics, I play on my old Amiga =(

I never had an Amiga, I’m still very sad about this.   I loved all those demos people would make.  Man those were good times in the computer world.

Anywho, I agree with the OP in the sense that bleeding edge MMOs will always have a tiny player base because few will be able to play it. Most of my friends can barely play Lotro on their crappy computers much less AoC. Most people won't spend over a thousand bucks on a computer just for game playing. I will. But most of the people I know will not. Even if technology catches up and passes AoC and the standard Best Buy piece o' junk computer three years from now can run AoC, people will have moved on to other MMOs by then.  It's kind of a shame, really, but that's just the way it is.

I want my gaming computer to have a 6 year life cycle.

- I should be able to play things on high settings right when I first get it.

- In two years I should be happy running things on medium most times.

- In 4 years everything on low, but playable.

- In 6 years almost completely outdated.

This is a similar cycle to what consoles follow and it's a major reason for their success.

I'm 30 years old now, part of the Nintendo generation. I've got a wife, rent, student loans, a retirement account, car payments etc. Developers for computer games need to realize the Nintendo generation just never stopped playing. We are still here. Just like this new generation will probably not stop playing. We tend to have deep pockets, but we can't just keep shelling out hundreds or thousands of dollars every year or two for these rigs.

As far as MMO's are concerned, gameplay, content, and interaction are way more important than pushing the limits of some new GPU, and if the dev's don't figure that out soon they're going to leave an entire generation of gamers behind.

Originally posted by KatzuAion

Can i know what's the specs of your computer UrbanMonkey? and if you are following this games since 2 years ago, you should know that they are more demanding in terms of Hardware. Couldn't you had save some money in those 2 years time to buy a new Rig? Cpu+Graphics+Mem+mobo  is quite cheap nowdays.. with 500 euros you can get something nice (excluding monitor).

Thanks for trying to help me KatzuAion. But I really didn't start this thread out of frustration but out of concern. I run a 8800GTS 512MB OC with 4GB  DDR2 800 and a Core 2 Duo 8400.

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

I want my gaming computer to have a 6 year life cycle.

- I should be able to play things on high settings right when I first get it.

- In two years I should be happy running things on medium most times.

- In 4 years everything on low, but playable.

- In 6 years almost completely outdated.

This is a similar cycle to what consoles follow and it's a major reason for their success.

I'm 30 years old now, part of the Nintendo generation. I've got a wife, rent, student loans, a retirement account, car payments etc. Developers for computer games need to realize the Nintendo generation just never stopped playing. We are still here. Just like this new generation will probably not stop playing. We tend to have deep pockets, but we can't just keep shelling out hundreds or thousands of dollars every year or two for these rigs.

As far as MMO's are concerned, gameplay, content, and interaction are way more important than pushing the limits of some new GPU, and if the dev's don't figure that out soon they're going to leave an entire generation of gamers behind.

 

I am in about the same situation as you do. Close to 29, Wife, job, etc.

I am a game dev myself and I still think a great gameplay in a conventional style (graphics) would any day beat beating edge graphics with decent gameplay(not speaking about poor gameplay at all).

Despite I can afford to upgrade computers it is not a good choice for an MMO to "subtley" require you to update your computer to bleeding edge specs.

Imho for an MMO if you want to have a decent subscriber base for your new game the recipe should be the following: 
- create a great fun gameplay for casuals and hardcores players
- try to make the world as seamless as possible(open world) instances for dungeons only
- keep what was good and become industry standards (hint: WoW UI.)
- get rid of the things people didn't like in their previous game
- invent, innovate some new stuff to add fresh stuff to the market
- add great amount of content for the beginning
- make it look decent on the mainstream computers (great solution to use convetional graphics)
- then polish and fix bugs, then polish and fix bugs for 1 more year, then polish again a bit more.

That's what Blizzard realized and worked out greatly. And I am really happy that EA-Mythic with Warhammer is on the same track here.

It has a nice art style that sticks to GW's Warhammer IP. Will run extraordinary good on bleeding egde computers and probably it will be still very enjoyable on the mainstream gaming computers while it still looks good.

It has promised content for casuals and hardcores, it has new innovations, while keeping old working designs and it is less demanding on peoples rig. I am glad they realized that and not gone Vanguard/AoC direction that is destined to suffer badly by the core design failures(sacrificing gameplay and seamless world on the altar of bleeding edge graphics which imo still looks plastic photorealistic without a coherent art style)

last note I agree with a previous poster who said a more "cartoonish" world with old comics design could do a lot more justice to Conan's world rather than using bleeding edge.

Longevity mayhaps?

Wow graphics were outdated when it got released, and now several years later, it's almost prehistoric.

By using a cutting edge engine that nobody can use now, you ensure that the game will still look nice in a few years time.

I remember first time I played Farcry and had to run everything on low to get acceptable fps, then a few years later, I could run everything on max and it still looked nice compared to games coming out then.

And you say that people with old hardware shouldn't have to turn their settings down, so instead they should make crappy graphics so that people with old hardware can run on high while people with new hardware can run on .. ehh .. high? Wouldn't it make more sense that people with old hardware get to run it on low while people with new hardware can run on medium/high?

1) It's still a beta, stop with the woe cries.

2) The open beta client is actually two builds older than the current closed beta one. This was done to create abnormal stress to their servers and find a LOT of quest bugs.

3) The Debugger is still running since the last patch, even though we were told it was going to be shut off :(.

4) The Client is SO large because it is currently uncompressed so the debugger can work at 100% efficiency and help find problems MUCH faster and easier than if the client were compiled.

5) Due to the client being uncompressed the textures have to be called correctly and THEN go through the debugger. This causes excruciating lag. Since not being compiled alone can cause a lot of lag when loading resources. The debugger really isn't helping any at this point with promotion of AoC. However, it is helping by leaps and bounds on their technical side!

6) Keep in mind there are still roughly 25k people across 4 servers crammed into about 6% of the current game world. Theres going to be lag with all the above for mentioned stuff.

7) There is still the Gold build that will be in the boxes shipped out at release. This is at least 3 to 4 builds ahead of the current OB build (considering it's age). A LOT will change from now till then. So any class issues etc "should" be different by then!

So in the end, saying that AoC is in a state of utter crap 2weeks before launch = showing your low IQ. Please read the official announcements and closed Beta leaks before you start crying and making up complete nonsense.

Your statements are ignorant and do not reflect the actual gameplay of AoC at launch. If you had taken ANY time to search for the CORRECT information you'd know this. You have failed at the interwebz.

PS: Nothing I have said here is under NDA. It is all official Mod/Dev statements made in the open forum and NOT in the closed off areas that are NDA restricted.

-Faded