General Discussion

My question is quite simple on the surface, though looking into it provides a bit more complexity.

How far would you be willing to go to ensure that success in MMO PvP is based on how good/skilled the involved players are, instead of how much time they've spent farming for a rare drop, or for how long they've spent grinding out experience, or on how good their connection is?

As PvP is in most MMOs right now, there are few measures taken to ensure that the outcome is based on skill. Now, granted, skill is a large factor in many confrontations. However, in battles between players where there is a great level, gear or latency discrepancy, skill is a non-factor.

For example, no matter how good at playing WoW I am, I will never, never be able to defeat a level 70 with a level 10 character, or even a level 20, or 30, or 40 character, assuming of course that the 70 knows how to push at least 1 button on his keyboard, and is not afk.

Similarly, no matter how skilled I am at playing WoW, my level 70 in quest greens and blues will never, ever defeat a level 70 in black temple epics or the newest arena gear, again assuming that the 70 knows how to push at least 1 button on his keyboard and is not afk.

And again, no matter how skilled I am at playing WoW, my level 70 will never, ever defeat a comprably geared level 70 opponent if I am running at a 2500 latency, while he is clocking in at 50 ms.

In each of these three situations, a single factor plays such a large role in the outcome of the battle that skill has become irrelevant. And this is the case in most, if not all MMOs, although perhaps not will all of these examples.

And so, considering that quite a few MMO players seem to think that PvP isn't really PvP at all when it's just a gank (i.e. a sure or nearly sure victory for one side because of superior levels, gear, numbers, etc.), I figured it would be interesting to see just what all players are willing to do so that the playing field is at least a little bit more level. Hence the question above.

Now I know that MMORPGs aren't FPSs, where everyone has the same weapon and the same number of hit points, and where it is knowledge of the map, the game in general, and reflexes/skill (which are somewhat innate, but honed by play time) determine who wins and who loses. But I find myself thinking that it would be nice if the battlefield in MMOs was a little more level.

Sure, maybe that level 1 will still never be able to defeat that level 70. But beyond that? Assuming equal skill, connection, etc., shouldn't a level 30 have at least a small chance (<20 percent?) of defeating a level 70? Shouldn't any level 70 be able to defeat any other level 70, even though one has all that leet gear and the other is a fresh 70?

I think so. What about you?

 Edit - Damn it! I hit post before I finished the friggin poll. Oh well. Discuss, I suppose.

It's funny that this post came up, because I was thinking of starting one with exactly the same comments when I got home from work.

Basically, this is why I don't bother with PvP in MMO's. There is no skill involved - as long as you have better equipment or are a higher level, you're going to win on a one-on-one. Thats why I laugh when I'm asked to duel from someone 10 levels higher than me. What does he want? To feel superior or something? He knows I can't win.

Every MMO has been the same since the birth of time, and I think thats why amongst some people MMO PvP is so popular. Because it doesn't involve skill, you don't need to be a great player, just as long as you've spent a nerdy amount of time grinding and raiding for the right equipment and levels, you win. And for the geeks who this applies to, this makes them happy. They can't play FPS games so they come and pick on the little guy in MMO's.

EVE is the perfect example of this. Play for long enough and you can fly around in your galaxy bashing Titan, annihilating everything with the touch of a button. You'll have more skills to affect the damage your weapons do and the amount your shields can take, and you can kill with impunity those little guys who have only been playing a few months in their frigates.

Though of course most EVE PvP is about a bunch of ships sitting on a warp gate waiting for Lone_Soldier_3 to appear so they can turn him into dust. Woo. You go guys, thats real skill at work.

Anyway, got off topic there. What I'm really saying is, MMO PvP is awful, whatever the game is. Games like Planetside are the only places where PvP should take place, all the rest is about gear and levels - skill comes a far distant last.

When I want skill based PvP I play CS or CoD.  I personally think that MMORPGs are about what pen & paper RPGs are about...your character getting cool loot and leveling up while playing with friends.  I don't see a problem with level and gear differences affecting PvP.  Of course, that's my opinion.

Well I hate to be all elitist on ya, but to me one of the main points of an MMO is to spend lots of time with pve to develop your character and find phat lootz; then to use those rewards to attempt to smash other players at or near your level.  If I wanted a level playing field, I'd be playing a first person shooter.

That being said, I think there would certainly be a market for an rpgish game with the typical classes that's super easy to level and then completely focuses on the pvp aspect without the pve and gear collection process.  Of course, at that point the game is no longer an mmo in my opinion.  Perhaps those of you who want these type of games can push for the creating of a new genre, because that's exactly what you're asking for.

go enjoy some guildwars, in the low level arenas you'll see some people rushing themselves to the end areas or other places and getting some of the best gear+pets and maybe a skill capture here and there.  Only to be defeated by a team that hasn't done so that is organized and making good use of the 'starterish' skills+armor in the area.

Originally posted by zaxxon23

 Of course, at that point the game is no longer an mmo in my opinion. 

I think it could still be an MMO just not an mmoRPG.  I think what you're after is only a small part of the MMO formula.  After all it's supposed to stand for Massive Multiplayer Online.  Nowhere does it state that it's a Massive Multiplayer Collect Loot To Be Better With Tons of Time Invested RPG.  Just figure I'd point that out.

Originally posted by Illius

Originally posted by zaxxon23

 Of course, at that point the game is no longer an mmo in my opinion. 

I think it could still be an MMO just not an mmoRPG.  I think what you're after is only a small part of the MMO formula.  After all it's supposed to stand for Massive Multiplayer Online.  Nowhere does it state that it's a Massive Multiplayer Collect Loot To Be Better With Tons of Time Invested RPG.  Just figure I'd point that out.

Originally posted by Illius

Originally posted by zaxxon23

 Of course, at that point the game is no longer an mmo in my opinion. 

I think it could still be an MMO just not an mmoRPG.  I think what you're after is only a small part of the MMO formula.  After all it's supposed to stand for Massive Multiplayer Online.  Nowhere does it state that it's a Massive Multiplayer Collect Loot To Be Better With Tons of Time Invested RPG.  Just figure I'd point that out.

Agreed...

not all Role Play is vanilla, I mean dungeon and dragons.