Originally posted by waverat81

Originally posted by Xris375

What do you mean ? Can you give an example ?

Example of what? Unless I've missed something, I haven't read anything saying DF will be a free release and I'm saying the statement Tasos' says about trying before you buy doesn't guarantee a free release. 

What is the difference between a "try before you buy" and a "free release" ?

Originally posted by singsofdeath

 

Yes, it's speculation. Just like you are speculating on Darkfalls release and the state of the game -when- it releases. So? What point are you trying to make?

 

 

To put it all in one sentence. If you are remotely interested in AoC, wait until after release and you will get a chance of trying it before you buy it (this is my belief and is just as valid as yours at this point).

 

Trying to say FC is ripping people off is just plain and simple -wrong-. No one is forcing you to buy anything until -you- choose to do so.

Originally posted by Xris375

Originally posted by Isane

 

 

Currently playing Vanguard thought i'd go back and see how it was. And guess what having great fun with small groups no rat race / lots of content and people playing as a community. Can't say that for most other MMOs at the moment.

Can they show helmets yet ? Glad you are happy with it I'm not paying for beta.

 Well lets say i have everything running on max settings no lag no crashes and yes i believe i have a nice helmet with nice horns on it. As a very experienced gamer you have just shown yourself up for what you are a troller plain and simple. The anal statement about beta makes me laugh and shows and makes me wonder why you are here . You aren't interested in DF just trying to goad people... Each to their own.

Originally posted by Xris375

Originally posted by waverat81

Originally posted by Xris375

What do you mean ? Can you give an example ?

Example of what? Unless I've missed something, I haven't read anything saying DF will be a free release and I'm saying the statement Tasos' says about trying before you buy doesn't guarantee a free release. 

What is the difference between a "try before you buy" and a "free release" ?

Like it or not, buddy keys are a "try before you buy" for someone.  Doesn't matter if someone else bought the game, if I received a buddy key, I didn't buy it and I'm trying the game before "I" buy it.  Free trials are a form of "try before you buy" and so is a "free release", however I can't see a "free release" being practical.  Games take money and time to make, how can anyone expect to stay in business if they gave all their product away for free? If Darkfall were to offer a free release, and the game isn't up to expectations, guess what they probably won't have any money to fix it and go belly up pretty dam quick.  Then again, lets say it's a very good success, I'm not trying to be negative or condescending towards anyone at all but most people won't "volunteer" money if they don't have to. 

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by Xris375

Can they show helmets yet ? Glad you are happy with it I'm not paying for beta.

 Well lets say i have everything running on max settings no lag no crashes and yes i believe i have a nice helmet with nice horns on it. As a very experienced gamer you have just shown yourself up for what you are a troller plain and simple. The anal statement about beta makes me laugh and shows and makes me wonder why you are here . You aren't interested in DF just trying to goad people... Each to their own.

That is nice! It took only, what a year ? I'm sure SOE is happy that they have such loyal customers.

I never claim I'm an experienced player but that paying for beta really isn't my thing. As for the trolling part, I leave that to the judgement for the moderators.

Originally posted by waverat81

 

There is none, however there is a perception issue I think we're running into. 

 

Like it or not, buddy keys are a "try before you buy" for someone.  Doesn't matter if someone else bought the game, if I received a buddy key, I didn't buy it and I'm trying the game before "I" buy it.  Free trials are a form of "try before you buy" and so is a "free release", however I can't see a "free release" being practical.  Games take money and time to make, how can anyone expect to stay in business if they gave all their product away for free? If Darkfall were to offer a free release, and the game isn't up to expectations, guess what they probably won't have any money to fix it and go belly up pretty dam quick.  Then again, lets say it's a very good success, I'm not trying to be negative or condescending towards anyone at all but most people won't "volunteer" money if they don't have to. 

Your argument about staying in business is valid BUT if you have faith in your product, you "know" the customer will be hooked. In fact if it's free, more will probably try it out and IF the game is good enough you will have more customers. It seems Aventurine have enough faith in their product that they will let you try their product for free, hoping you sometime in the future you will become a paying customer.

Originally posted by mk11232

 

Originally posted by Kien

 

 

A concept for over seven years... but the first beta announcement was 2003. For the announcement to have been made in 2003, development must have been quite advanced. Therefore, using the most conservative of estimates, Darkfall has been in development for over five years.

You might want to go back to math class.  If the beta was announed in 2003, then that means they were developing it well before then.  You don't announce a beta before you have the alpha, and that means the basic, near-complete, game mechanics are already coded.  Given most mmo's (including vsoh which was rushed out in 12 months) timeline, and being truely conservative, the game has been in development since 2001, which means at least 7 years.

 

You don't announce beta before you truely have a product.  If they can't get a beta out in 7 years, much less a finalized product, how long do you think it will take for expansions, patches, and updates to release??

The operative phrase was "using the most conservative of estimates".

Originally posted by Xris375

 

Originally posted by waverat81

 

There is none, however there is a perception issue I think we're running into. 

 

Like it or not, buddy keys are a "try before you buy" for someone.  Doesn't matter if someone else bought the game, if I received a buddy key, I didn't buy it and I'm trying the game before "I" buy it.  Free trials are a form of "try before you buy" and so is a "free release", however I can't see a "free release" being practical.  Games take money and time to make, how can anyone expect to stay in business if they gave all their product away for free? If Darkfall were to offer a free release, and the game isn't up to expectations, guess what they probably won't have any money to fix it and go belly up pretty dam quick.  Then again, lets say it's a very good success, I'm not trying to be negative or condescending towards anyone at all but most people won't "volunteer" money if they don't have to. 

Funcom could have said: Anyone who wants to try our game for free for two weeks can do so. They are not. Someone has to pay to get access. It's not free.

 

Your argument about staying in business is valid BUT if you have faith in your product, you "know" the customer will be hooked. In fact if it's free, more will probably try it out and IF the game is good enough you will have more customers. It seems Aventurine have enough faith in their product that they will let you try their product for free, hoping you sometime in the future you will become a paying customer.

It's still free to someone that gets a buddy key, which is the point you're missing.  In context "try before you buy" regarding this as unethical as it may possibly be, it's still a truth and a hook almost anyone in advertising will use.  This really isn't about AoC and Funcom though, I was speaking in regards to Tasos and DF.  He made the statement "You can try it before you buy".  What he was referring to is the question because any of the examples I and a few others have mentioned including a limitless open beta are various versions of "try before you buy" and to simply think he was only referring to free access for everyone on release would be setting yourself up for a possibly upsetting situation. 

As far as having faith your product will deliver, and "knowing" the customer will be hooked.  I think every company looking to make money from a product should have this mentality.  However, to put that much faith in people, thinking if they like your product enough they'll pony up the money eventually is not the mentality of someone that will stay in business.  I myself would love to have that much faith in people, but the reality is people will take the free alternative over the one that costs.  Sure, there will be those that have the morals to pay for it after they find out they truly enjoy the game, but "hoping" every person that tries your game will be this way is setting yourself up for failure.

What is the difference between a "try before you buy" and a "free release" ?

How do you know he didn't mean try before you buy with a mandatory entry of a credit card to be auto billed next month if you don't cancel?

That's a free trial.

Yea never going to happen. Move on.

Originally posted by almout30

Yea never going to happen. Move on.

Proof please ^.^

It’s the other way round, the developers have to provide proof.

You don't make sense. There is no reason for them to prove anything until release or open beta. Considering they don't have a marketing department, they are probably making as much publicity as possible with as little work as possible the way they are doing things right now. I don't think its the right thing to do, but it sure beats the shameless marketing some other MMOs have had.

Originally posted by Fukkfase

You don't make sense. There is no reason for them to prove anything until release or open beta. Considering they don't have a marketing department, they are probably making as much publicity as possible with as little work as possible the way they are doing things right now. I don't think its the right thing to do, but it sure beats the shameless marketing some other MMOs have had.

What does having a marketing department have to do with anything? So you really believe anytime one of the more credible gaming sites on the net.  Does a hands-on preview of a game it's because the developer or even the publisher paid for it?  Not all trips as those are paid for by the developer/publisher.   Sometimes it is out of pocket expenses.

Do you really expect people to believe for even a moment.  Considering ALL the features that Darkfall promises to bring to the table.  That if they contacted a creditable gaming site/gaming mag.  Saying we'd be more then happy to show you the current build of our game.  That their response would be "Sure, but only if you are paying for our travel cost?" Alot of the more creditable sites even have over-sea's affiliates.  That they could send in their place, just to keep the cost down.

If they didnt want to talk about their game until release or OB, that would have been a different matter.  Fact is, they have talked a great deal over a long period of time, but shown very little in comparison.  That invites reasonable inquiry. 

If Aventurine had a solid product, as they claim, they could solve 2 problems very easily.  Simply allow a few from the reputable press organisations play that feature complete and stable beta that was announced in Jan 2007 (now with 15 months of additional polish) and write an article.  They would get TONS of free marketing (the good kind!) and also silence vaporware claims.  There is no downside to doing this...unless the "feature complete and stable beta" actually isnt complete and stable. 

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Simply allow a few from the reputable press organisations play that feature complete and stable beta that was announced in Jan 2007 (now with 15 months of additional polish) and write an article. 

Agreed.

Like it or not, Marketing is part of MMORPG development.   Any company that ignores Marketing will suffer for it.   Allowing the press to preview a game is part of marketing and most interviewers from the major sites/magazines are reasonable enough to understand if they see bugs or glitches. 

Darkfall's problem is the Devs only went half-way into their Marketing.  They release a trailer that makes incredible claims as if their game is going to change the entire genre then don't follow up.

If they didn't want to show anyone their game before release, they should have been completely secretive and not revealed ANYTHING.   Then imagine the splash they would have made then they released it onto an unsuspecting MMORPG market. 

That is, if they actually have a working game.   I don't think it's vaporware but after disasters like Vanguard and Gods and Heroes, I'm amazed anyone in the MMORPG community is willing to simply accept claims from Developers without indepedent sources as back-up. 

As good as darkfall looks, they have a point. Seems to me they could.. with minimal effort, destory all the naysayers claims and add tons of free marketing..... why wont they??

This is just free advertisement for Aventurine. I think those articles are fun to read.

Originally posted by Seggallion

This is just free advertisement for Aventurine. I think those articles are fun to read.

Now all Aventurine needs is an actual product to advertise, and they will be all set!

Originally posted by Roin

 

Originally posted by Fukkfase

You don't make sense. There is no reason for them to prove anything until release or open beta. Considering they don't have a marketing department, they are probably making as much publicity as possible with as little work as possible the way they are doing things right now. I don't think its the right thing to do, but it sure beats the shameless marketing some other MMOs have had.

 

What does having a marketing department have to do with anything? So you really believe anytime one of the more credible gaming sites on the net.  Does a hands-on preview of a game it's because the developer or even the publisher paid for it?  Not all trips as those are paid for by the developer/publisher.   Sometimes it is out of pocket expenses.

Do you really expect people to believe for even a moment.  Considering ALL the features that Darkfall promises to bring to the table.  That if they contacted a creditable gaming site/gaming mag.  Saying we'd be more then happy to show you the current build of our game.  That their response would be "Sure, but only if you are paying for our travel cost?" Alot of the more creditable sites even have over-sea's affiliates.  That they could send in their place, just to keep the cost down.

Very good point, I have to agree with you.

I will make a speculation though: In the long run, being so dubious might have gotten them more publicity than if they were 100% credible from the start.

I don't actually think that's true, and if it was true, I don't think it's true anymore. If they did what you're proposing, and got good reviews, the hype would explode I think.

And another thing:  "Considering they don't have a marketing department, they are probably making as much publicity as possible with as little work as possible the way they are doing things right now" actually seems much more accurate if we assume they don't have a game they will ever be able to release in a proper condition. I don't see what the point of that is, but still :D