all people want now is an mmo...thats is extremely fast to level...and easy to get the highest gear.....i mean the hole idea of an mmo is to develop your character..and take your time...with him/her

any one agree...is it only moi

/discuss

disagree.

WoW will have positve long run effects.  Basically investors now see a market and they wanties.  You'll eventually see everything revisited(even your old EQ1 mechanics) and even new stuff from some developers after awhile.

shame MMO's go soo slow, and evolve even slower.  but that's to be expected since you have a server that is reminisce of a small-midsized corporations IT system(even then you'll likely end up with a much heavier load), then all the normal stuff you'd need for the game, that(client) needs to work within the bounds of the server to boot.

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Originally posted by paulscott
disagree.
WoW will have positve long run effects. Basically investors now see a market and they wanties. You'll eventually see everything revisited(even your old EQ1 mechanics) and even new stuff from some developers after awhile.
shame MMO's go soo slow, and evolve even slower. but that's to be expected since you have a server that is reminisce of a small-midsized corporations IT system(even then you'll likely end up with a much heavier load), then all the normal stuff you'd need for the game, that(client) needs to work within the bounds of the server to boot.

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what....i don't get what your saying...i didn't say anything about a client?

10 Millions users can't be wrong.  Peoples don't want any huge grind.   Peoples are busy these days, when they play a game they want to feel they are accomplishing something even if they have only 30 minutes to play.

First off learn to spell.

I agree that warcraft ruined the mmo genre. Most mmo's now are just how much time you spent on the game and not about if you are actually good at it (in other words have skill in it). My dream is to witness a mmo that is all skill based and not level based cause levels only show how long you played.

Originally posted by Housam

all people want now is an mmo...thats is extremely fast to level...and easy to get the highest gear.....i mean the hole idea of an mmo is to develop your character..and take your time...with him/her

any one agree...is it only moi

/discuss

WoW must have ruined your ability to type too.  I disagree.  Wow isn't the problem it's all these other developers who are trying to mimic wow and cash in on their model.  There are plenty of us ready for something new but someone out there needs to stop playing it safe and get creative.

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Originally posted by ASmith84
First off learn to spell.
I agree that warcraft ruined the mmo genre. Most mmo's now are just how much time you spent on the game and not about if you are actually good at it (in other words have skill in it). My dream is to witness a mmo that is all skill based and not level based cause levels only show how long you played.

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no need to be rude...

Originally posted by Housam

i mean the hole idea of an mmo is to develop your character..and take your time...with him/her

 

Actually the whole idea of playing games is to have fun...

Originally posted by ASmith84

First off learn to spell.

I agree that warcraft ruined the mmo genre. Most mmo's now are just how much time you spent on the game and not about if you are actually good at it (in other words have skill in it). My dream is to witness a mmo that is all skill based and not level based cause levels only show how long you played.

Wtf u think an mmo is?  its not a bloody action or fps game where u play 5 minutes a day.  Its a world where people can spend years and years in, so yes they achieve something by spending time within the game.  I suggest you play a fps game if u want real hardcore skill, unless your totally crap at fps games, which mean you have no skill to start of with. 

The only reason wow added epics for everyone to get, is so that people would stop complaining about the grind and it being a 24/7 job.  Now that they made it easier for casuals to get items, you complain its now easy, there is no bloody pleasing alot of people here.  before it was we hate the grind the 40 man raid, wow listened and lowered the level raid cap and gave epics to eevyone so everyone didnt feel left out, and now they give casuals and hardcore what they wanted , you still complain, I suggest you play a game where there is no lvl cap or wepaon cap or armour advantage,  and NEWSFLASH THAT A FUUCKING FPS GAME.

See how long you lats in an FPS game agaisnt pros. 

I disagree. 

World of Warcraft is just another "type" of mmorpg. Normally you have to grind for quite a long time before you get to the level cap. In WoW you didn't had to grind that much. Wich is a good thing. In Guild Wars it is just the same but even more faster. You can get your account to the lvl 20 cap and get the best gear out their in 1 weekend if you want!

This features just make it very nice to play a MMORPG. This kind's of MMORPG just focus alot more on eng-game content the the formal generation of MMORPGs!

skill based, and player skill(based) are two very different things.

skill based would be where you're given a few hundred(or fewer depending on the balance) abilities that you indenpendantly train.  An example would be EvE online, though I consider it a bad example for a few reasons.  versus I can move my mouse .1 seconds faster and negotiate lag better.

skill based is the ultimate of MMOiness (when it's balanced), such a pity we'll only be seeing D&D-grind for the next forever.  especially since some stupid developer inside game companies will be convinced that the classes are what makes WoW, likely the same developer that thinks system requirements don't matter.  Pity WoW does have some bad for it, developers will further take the grandfather's clause of stupidity to new levels(slight pun).   But we'll get more MMO's out of it, more chances to vote on what we want ect...

Originally posted by Housam

all people want now is an mmo...thats is extremely fast to level...and easy to get the highest gear.....i mean the hole idea of an mmo is to develop your character..and take your time...with him/her

any one agree...is it only moi

/discuss

I have tried finding a meaning in your post and as I interpret it you think that because World of Warcraft allows faster levelling than other (unnamed) MMOs the whole genre of MMOs is now destroyed since no development can essentially take place?

If that's your point I don't agree at all.

Let's take the obvious first: Development means change, change involving an improvement. World of Warcraft does not lack this, your character develops as you play it.

Secondly I think that World of Warcraft is only showing one thing that MMOs can be, and there are some game designers that are trying to copy this formula (Lord of the Rings: Online as the most prominent example). My guess would be that since World of Warcraft is generating such a huge interest, subscription base and therefore revenue, the whole MMO genre seems more accessible (less daunting) from a developer point of view. And the easiest way to cash in quickly is to make something that is more or less the same.

That does not mean that innovation is automatically nullified, it just means that the consumers must be more aware of what they are demanding and vote with their vallets. If you dislike a game, don't play it.

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Originally posted by est0nia

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Originally posted by Housam

i mean the hole idea of an mmo is to develop your character..and take your time...with him/her

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Actually the whole idea of playing games is to have fun...

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I wrote an article on what Blizzard did right and did wrong with WoW. Read it HERE.

To say that WoW made things too easy and spoon fed the players is a bit of an overstatement. While they did simplify the leveling and progression of the players, there was a huge wall when players finished leveling and reached end game content. Progression through the end game was extreemly limiting to most players.

My opinion is that any problems caused by Blizzards simplifying the 'low game'  is vastly compensated by the fact that it drew in millions of new players that will benifit all MMO games to come

I disagree..

I think WoW has brought alot to the MMO genre. WoW has brought alot of people to MMO's who would have never tried them, and in doing so has helped the boom in MMO popularity.  It also has made the gamers less willing to play a bug filled game, and MMO's launching with a crap ton of bugs are dieing very fast. It has given other Devs something to try to beat, and we the gamers will be the ones to reap the benefits of the competition.  Not everyone likes WoW, and I have no problems with that at all. Not everyone is going to like the same thing, but WoW has done alot of good for the MMO market.

Originally posted by Housam

 

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Originally posted by est0nia

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Originally posted by Housam

 

i mean the hole idea of an mmo is to develop your character..and take your time...with him/her

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Actually the whole idea of playing games is to have fun...

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and its fun developing your character

 

From Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary:

Develop: to gradually grow or become bigger, more advanced, stronger, etc.; to make sth do this

Is your (personal) definition something else? Otherwise I find it hard to see how development isn't present in World of Warcraft and all other similar MMOs?

It is one experience among many.

I believe it happens to be a fantastic first experience, since it is accessible and fun. The fact that it is somewhat quick is good, since it doesn't overwhelm players who are new to the genre.

If anyone believes a single game means all the rest of the games in the genre are identical, then that person is naive. Daikatana is not the way I want to measure the FPS industry, and I know not every game is as good as Half-Life. Having a little capacity to appreciate differences is just a part of life.

well I agree and disagree heres why

First off I belive WoW has in some ways ruined the mmorpg market but it has also done some things to improve it. WoW ruined it because when you can lvl verry quickly and easily without any skill involved the game gets to be a boreing drag-on grind fest where you reach the highest lvl get the best gear all without even putting too much effort to it, this is a bad thing because then what do you do start a new char(some say toon but thats just belittleing things). Most in WoW play till they get to the highest lvl and dont even try to use the economy in the game they just spent all of thiers or most of the time mommy and daddy's money to buy gold from gold farmers so they can have it all. in every game I've plaied I've never bought gold or game money because that takes all the challenge out of the game and thus takes all the fun out of it. Like I have been saying for the last year WoW has brought on this whole thing where everyone just easily gets the highest lvl and best gear then goes out JUST to fight other players. Even the newest x-pac thats on the way is all about the pvp which is fine to have pvp but if you want nuthing but a fighting game go play mortal kombat lol. The one thing WoW did do right was the comunity envolvement, not that manny take advantage of it but still.

An MMORPG is suposed to be about the journey not the destination if ppl are soooo buisy these days as one person said and dont have the time to spend days weeks or even months playing then perhaps they need to either stop playing or find the time. So in the long run alot of MMORPG's are now being thought of by new gamers who are trying them for the first time as nuthing more than an arcadeish rpg/fighting game and not enjoying it. I plaied WoW since its original release and even waited for 8 hrs at my local wal-mart for the BC x-pac but I have heard new players over and over say the same thing "this game is no fun, I thought this was suposed to be an rpg but how can I do quests when everyone just wants to fight others"

So to conclude I agree mostly and dissagree only slightly, I hope for MMORPG's that get to the real point of what these games are suposed to be, remember as I said its suposed to be about the journey not the destination.

You know I have played alot of MMO's, unfortunatly I missed the MUD's from the day but I played alot of D&D games like pools of radiance back on the Tandy 1000TX.  Anyways my first real MMO was Asheron's Call, and I will tell you to date NOTHING compares to that game.  I know alot of people don't like AC, or won't look at it because it is almost 10 years old now but DAMN was it a good game.  I played alot since then, AC2, Anarchy Online, Starwars Galaxies, Eve, WOW, Cabal, Shaiya, COH, and COV, LOTRO, Pirates Online, and countless betas and f2p's.

You know what MMORPG means to me, a game where I am not limited, a Sandbox style game with interesting random encounters.  Equipment that means something, a community that you can interact with, a story line that you feel a part of.  Random Loot, No real classes but instead a skill based system.  The heart of an MMO is the RPG, and how many people have played a real RPG, no on a computer but instead the old paper and pencil style with dice?  A group of 5 friends or more getting together for a night of fun, and excitement.  In most cases the GM's edited certain rules for games so that you could make the character you wanted.  Most RPGs were class based, but a few expanded on the class sytem even more and turned RPGs into a skill based system, not a feats system, a true skill based system.  Paladium did it with there games, Robotech, Rifts, Heros unlimited, villans unlimited, etc.  You could choose a class in these games then you had a basic set of skills that you got but you were always given choices for Extra skills.  Example:  TO be a destroid pilot you could choose x amount of primary skills but you needed to have Pilot destroid as one of those skills.  Other then the very basics you were not limited, a destroid pilot could take pilot Vertitech if they wished, or could take Cooking.  Either way your character developed and grew to your expectations, also your attributes were random all dice rolls to start but after that you could raise them with skills and each level.  This is an RPG your taking over the role of a character you created, not an all powerful god that can destroy anything.

Now to add MMO into the RPG all you do is have a corporate GM, and they hold a strict set of rules for everything that can't be bent.  So as a result most MMO's follow the cookie cutter system, you choose your class and go, all skill decided for you.  Your character is the same as every other character out there, one paladin is the same as the next.  Individuality is only defined by feats, Talents or any other stupid name you want to give them.  In reality you are VERY limited even in this sense, there are only so many permatations for talent trees.  In a game like wow you are bound to find thousands of people with the exact same talent build.  SO where is your individuality?  In most cases your quests are handed to you on a gold platter, and you are to go from A-B-C kill x of monster y - head back to A in order to get quest z, till you have no quests left.

I know alot of people want a pure skill based MMO and I think EVE was a good attempt at this but the game is dry for most, including myself.  Where are the random Alien encounters?  Why do I have to fight the same pirates over and over again?  What is really the excitement of going to some far off galaxy?  There isn't one the same pirates will be there in an asteroid belt.  I will admit the economy is great in EVE but it still lacks alot.  The skill system is ok, I don't like the training while you are offline, its the only MMO that I can pay for, for the next 10 years and only log in 5 minutes a day to change what skills I am training.  I never have to use them at all, just click a skill and hit train.  10 years later I have all the skills but I haven't done a damn thing really.

So this is why I go back to OLD school mmo's like Asheron's Call, which to myself is the last true sandbox MMO out there.  One that puts the RPG into MMORPG, you assume control of a character that is your creation from the start.  From stats to skills to equipment your character is your creation and yours alone.  I know that alot of people follow a template but the OPTION is there to go outside of the box.  This is the equivilant of the GM saying, if you want here are some premade templates, but choose the skills that you want, essencially make your own creation.  Assign your own stats, and skills from trained to specialized, and lets begin.  Over the course of your characters life you gain experiance for levels but every point of experiance can be distributed into your stats or skills, and you can see the effects each stat has on each skill.  With the logarithmic incriments of cost per point, it makes it so you have to decide efficiantly on how to develop your character.  Anyways I can go on here for DAYS about AC's system and why it is good but let me touch on one more point.

In your characters life you choose where to go, no quests that you HAVE to do to level, you just decide I want to explore this or that, and go out and do it.  If you want to go out to the Obsidian plains Great but you will have to become a bit powerful, how do you do that?  Well you have to go kill things, complete some quests possibly.  Nothing guides you down a path, the path is yours to create for yourself, and along the way you have fun meeting people, facing hordes of ORIGINAL creatures, picking up random loot from everything, heck I remember when a drudge level 30 dropped a yumi(bow) that was max damage and max percentage on it for me.  That was clearly a level 60 or 70 weapon but it dropped it, random loot drops, the question of what was over that next hill, and the ability to overcome the problems that arise.

Has WOW ruined what people belie is a MMORPG, no it wasn't just wow there were alot of games leading up to WOW that slowly erroded away at what an MMO was.  WOW is just the culmination of all of these things dissapearing and it is in the spotlight more then any other game on the planet.  I would really like to see a new MMORPG that goes back to being original like AC was, but that is just me I guess.

For those of you out there who want to step out of the box, try out AC, the graphics are very dated, hell the game has being out for 10 years now I think, but they still update the game EVERY MONTH, content updates and fixes.  Now that is a good GM.  Before you try it though remember please this is not your cookie cutter MMO this is a COMPLETELY different experiance, but in the end I believe you will love it.

ok I will agree with zantax on some levels, and I have and still do play the tabletop game of D&D with some friends, the dice,paper and the imagination of my mind and my friends. so yeah I can agree