In the first of our New York Comic Con panel reports, News Manager Keith Cross recaps some of the things that were said at the Turbine panel with Craig Alexander and Kate Paiz as the two discussed both Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons and Dragons Online.

At the New York Comic Con, Sunday was the big day for MMO fans, with a day full of panels, demos and discussions about the industry, its fans, and the games that keep us coming back for more.  Two of those games were Lord of the Rings Online and Dungeons: The shadows of Angmar and Dragons Online: Stormreach, both from Boston based developer Turbine, the largest privately held online game studio in North America.  Craig Alexander (LotRO), Vice President of Product Development, and Senior Producer (DDO) Kate Paiz were on hand to give presentations on each of these products and answer questions from journalists and fans alike.

The talk started with Kate Paiz giving us an overview of DDO’s history since it launched two years ago to a lukewarm reception.  There were a number of complaints from fans early on.  There was no wilderness adventuring, the early game was a bit dull, many veteran D&D players weren’t fond of the Eberron campaign setting which was relatively new at the time, and there were no dragons.  To many, running around Eberron as a Warforged and not slaying dragons in the wilderness just didn’t feel like D&D.  The game received a lot of flak early on from nerds like me, because the promise of a persistent world with many different players all playing at the same time sounded like it would be the truest incarnation of D&D in an electronic game space that had yet to exist.

Read it all here.

I couldn't get into LotRO's static feeling combat system.  It seemed very lacking with a dumbdowned approach; can face away from the target and still hit with a weapon, like most MMO's.  

DDO on the otherhand, very weak at launch but has an intuitively tactile combat system that emulates D&D in real time and one of the most dynamic character building systems availble in an online game.  While I hated the game at launch and stepped away for a year it's now become something that's likely to be emulated by future game developers.   

I'm surprised how narrow minded the majority of gamers are in terms of online games.  DDO is a game all gamers could benefit from experiancing, in it's current form. 

This was my favorite quote from the article:

"defeated monsters will be paying off with more rear items."

I'm not so sure I want to find out what that means.

Originally posted by mindspat

can face away from the target and still hit with a weapon, like most MMO's.  

Funny, I always get "must face target" if I try hitting while not facing.

I have to agree with the inteviewer, I THINK he was quietly referencing the fact that so many gamers feel that every released game has to have as much content in it at release as an established game has.  LoTRO's approach has been great, yet they still had a lot of people at release complaining because it wasn't as big as WoW.  Personally, I think the developers and staff have done a FANTASTIC job.

Originally posted by angerbeaver

Originally posted by mindspat

can face away from the target and still hit with a weapon, like most MMO's.  

Funny, I always get "must face target" if I try hitting while not facing.

Yep, that's completely untrue. You cannot hit a target if you have your back to it. In fact, in every MMO I've played over the last 5-6 years, you couldn't do that either.

I'd love to return to DDO, but I've been away from it too long for one. For two, the community meta-games, so it ruins the experience when you're running through something for the first time. For three, where the hell are the prestige classes?

Right now, a person can pick up a Never Winter Nights 1 or 2 copy, have more character customization, prestige classes, more content and the ability to play with other people for free. I still think Turbine didn't do the IP justice. It should have atleast been better than any other DnD game out to date.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I'd love to return to DDO, but I've been away from it too long for one. For two, the community meta-games, so it ruins the experience when you're running through something for the first time. For three, where the hell are the prestige classes?

Right now, a person can pick up a Never Winter Nights 1 or 2 copy, have more character customization, prestige classes, more content and the ability to play with other people for free. I still think Turbine didn't do the IP justice. It should have atleast been better than any other DnD game out to date.

Also, like they said, MMO's are a game in progress.  If you want prestige classes then hang in there.  Maybe they're coming, who knows.  When you see them create them, then you have the option to start playing again.  That's part of the growth of the game as a whole.

I wish Turbine would revisit Asheron's Call again.  I really miss AC2.

Screw AC2, I want to see a new AC1 with todays graphics.

I like LotRO but it just didn't grab me enough to subscribe.  The combat did feel lacking to me compared to some other games.  There was nothing specific I could point at and go "that's wrong" but it didn't quite work for me.

I really wanted to like DDO.  It's too bad Turbine ignored alpha/beta testers and continuously made it less and less like tabletop D&D.  As with another poster, I'd rather play NWN 1 or 2 (with how DDO turned out).

Originally posted by gnomexxx

 

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I'd love to return to DDO, but I've been away from it too long for one. For two, the community meta-games, so it ruins the experience when you're running through something for the first time. For three, where the hell are the prestige classes?

Right now, a person can pick up a Never Winter Nights 1 or 2 copy, have more character customization, prestige classes, more content and the ability to play with other people for free. I still think Turbine didn't do the IP justice. It should have atleast been better than any other DnD game out to date.

Neverwinter Nights is not an MMO.  Those are two completely different approaches to producing a game.  I like Neverwinter Nights and play it a good bit, but I could never begin to compare it with DDO.  Creating an MMO and a game with a limited server population of thousands less than a huge game like DDO is like apples and oranges.

 

Also, like they said, MMO's are a game in progress.  If you want prestige classes then hang in there.  Maybe they're coming, who knows.  When you see them create them, then you have the option to start playing again.  That's part of the growth of the game as a whole.

We are paying customers, whom pay a fee EVERY month. It's not that Turbine didn't know all of the races and classes available, because they did. It would be like my Direct TV company only giving me some of the channels and adding more channels every 10 weeks or so. That would be unacceptable to any reasonable person, because we are paying Direct TV a fee every month and we know for damn sure what channels are offered in other Cable/Satellite TV services.

Turbine COULD have released all races, classes, and prestige classes at release and still could have had plenty of room for improvement by releasing new content packs. Instead of defending a product, ask yourself which you would rather have. My vision of a DnD game at release or Turbine's vision? Then ask yourself what logical explanations could Turbine have for not having it in game at release? No one twisted their arm and made them release early last time I checked. I was there for Beta and for release.

Originally posted by mindspat

I couldn't get into LotRO's static feeling combat system.  It seemed very lacking with a dumbdowned approach; can face away from the target and still hit with a weapon, like most MMO's.  

DDO on the otherhand, very weak at launch but has an intuitively tactile combat system that emulates D&D in real time and one of the most dynamic character building systems availble in an online game.  While I hated the game at launch and stepped away for a year it's now become something that's likely to be emulated by future game developers.   

I'm surprised how narrow minded the majority of gamers are in terms of online games.  DDO is a game all gamers could benefit from experiancing, in it's current form. 

 

Dumbed down?  Compared to what?  I love the combat system, my Guards reactive abilities make every fight interesting for me.... what game are you playing that makes this looked dumbed down?  EVE is more complex, but that's apples and oranges.. no avatar based MMO I've tried has ever had a complex combat system.  At least not IMO.

I too tried DDO when it was first released, could not stand it and quit. I have since come back just a few months ago, and what a difference! I even posted some time back DDO should be packaged into an NWN type game, but the game is so much better now, and a lot of fun to play, especially for someone with limited game time like myself (Married with Children). I find the Comments of NWN being a complete game funny!, yes it is complete,plays very well, and very enjoyable. But do you remember when it (NWN) first came out?? It was horrible, more bugs than any MMO I ever played at launch, it was so bad I uninstalled it and did not come back to it at least  2 to 3 years after it was released. So Games like NWN do have somewhat of a developement curve like an MMO. Even though it is not an MMO it is MMO like (with persistent worlds and such).

DDO was and IS a failure.

If it had been made by people with actual creative talent, it would have had millions of sustained subscibers.

But as the arcticle shows, the inept people in charge arent willing to admit to themselves how badly they failed.

Its why MMO after MMO that comes out is utter crap.These dev teams are so bad, and so in love with themselves they cant see or smell what they just desposited in a box and called a product.

To them in their little reality challenged minds,its all roses that "just need more time" to grow .If only the paying customer would give them that time and cash, all would be just dandy.

If WoW hadnt come along, these lackwits would still be crowing about their 50 to 300K subscriber bases as if they had actually succeeded .

Biggest change the MMO market needs, is a complete purging of personnel.Its a real shame someone with loads of cash and some intelligence hasnt come along yet and "restructured" the entire MMO industry.Firing off the dinosaurs of hype like Brad,Smed,Garriot,etc...

Sadly the majority of them are showing ,they are not likely to leave voluntarily,and go into fields they are better suited for.Like politics,used car sales,religion,snake oil,the U.N. ,weather forecasting,etc...

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

Originally posted by gnomexxx

 

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

I'd love to return to DDO, but I've been away from it too long for one. For two, the community meta-games, so it ruins the experience when you're running through something for the first time. For three, where the hell are the prestige classes?

Right now, a person can pick up a Never Winter Nights 1 or 2 copy, have more character customization, prestige classes, more content and the ability to play with other people for free. I still think Turbine didn't do the IP justice. It should have atleast been better than any other DnD game out to date.

Neverwinter Nights is not an MMO.  Those are two completely different approaches to producing a game.  I like Neverwinter Nights and play it a good bit, but I could never begin to compare it with DDO.  Creating an MMO and a game with a limited server population of thousands less than a huge game like DDO is like apples and oranges.

 

Also, like they said, MMO's are a game in progress.  If you want prestige classes then hang in there.  Maybe they're coming, who knows.  When you see them create them, then you have the option to start playing again.  That's part of the growth of the game as a whole.

Please try to look at this from my point of view. I accept that MMORPGs are a work in progress, but the core game should be there. I understand NWN isn't an MMO. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the differences between the two. The point I am making is that NWN is complete. Meaning it has all of the races and classes, including prestige classes, at the release of the game. Don't forget, NWN also has expansion packs. The difference is that NWN releases new content with the expansion packs, not races and classes that should have been there at release.

 

We are paying customers, whom pay a fee EVERY month. It's not that Turbine didn't know all of the races and classes available, because they did. It would be like my Direct TV company only giving me some of the channels and adding more channels every 10 weeks or so. That would be unacceptable to any reasonable person, because we are paying Direct TV a fee every month and we know for damn sure what channels are offered in other Cable/Satellite TV services.

Turbine COULD have released all races, classes, and prestige classes at release and still could have had plenty of room for improvement by releasing new content packs. Instead of defending a product, ask yourself which you would rather have. My vision of a DnD game at release or Turbine's vision? Then ask yourself what logical explanations could Turbine have for not having it in game at release? No one twisted their arm and made them release early last time I checked. I was there for Beta and for release.

You are aware that Turbine worked along with the D&D folks themselves, right?  It's not like you can peg all the blame on Turbine.

Originally posted by tkobo

DDO was and IS a failure.

If it had been made by people with actual creative talent, it would have had millions of sustained subscibers.

But as the arcticle shows, the inept people in charge arent willing to admit to themselves how badly they failed.

Its why MMO after MMO that comes out is utter crap.These dev teams are so bad, and so in love with themselves they cant see or smell what they just desposited in a box and called a product.

To them in their little reality challenged minds,its all roses that "just need more time" to grow .If only the paying customer would give them that time and cash, all would be just dandy.

If WoW hadnt come along, these lackwits would still be crowing about their 50 to 300K subscriber bases as if they had actually succeeded .

Biggest change the MMO market needs, is a complete purging of personnel.Its a real shame someone with loads of cash and some intelligence hasnt come along yet and "restructured" the entire MMO industry.Firing off the dinosaurs of hype like Brad,Smed,Garriot,etc...

Sadly the majority of them are showing ,they are not likely to leave voluntarily,and go into fields they are better suited for.Like politics,used car sales,religion,snake oil,the U.N. ,weather forecasting,etc...

When I feel like you, I do breathing exercises.  It tends to calm me down a whole lot and put a new view on things.  Anger releases hormones in your body that are very detrimental in the long run.  Take care of your health. 

the content of both games might be improving but I still cannot stand the way their characters look - even on the highest setting with direct x 10 lotro characters just look dull, drab and muted.  No I dont think they should have wow brightness but comparing world to characters (esp with lotro) its a huge difference in details.

Cant play a game that has ugly characters no matter how "improved" the world is.

Originally posted by mylin1

the content of both games might be improving but I still cannot stand the way their characters look - even on the highest setting with direct x 10 lotro characters just look dull, drab and muted.  No I dont think they should have wow brightness but comparing world to characters (esp with lotro) its a huge difference in details.

Cant play a game that has ugly characters no matter how "improved" the world is.

 

 

I think the avatars need a lot more detail and "life-like" upgrades. I also don't like how unnatural the avatars stand (the Elves) in both games.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi
Please try to look at this from my point of view. I accept that MMORPGs are a work in progress, but the core game should be there. I understand NWN isn't an MMO. It doesn't take a genious to figure out the differences between the two. The point I am making is that NWN is complete. Meaning it has all of the races and classes, including prestige classes, at the release of the game. Don't forget, NWN also has expansion packs. The difference is that NWN releases new content with the expansion packs, not races and classes that should have been there at release.

 

We are paying customers, whom pay a fee EVERY month. It's not that Turbine didn't know all of the races and classes available, because they did. It would be like my Direct TV company only giving me some of the channels and adding more channels every 10 weeks or so. That would be unacceptable to any reasonable person, because we are paying Direct TV a fee every month and we know for damn sure what channels are offered in other Cable/Satellite TV services.

Turbine COULD have released all races, classes, and prestige classes at release and still could have had plenty of room for improvement by releasing new content packs. Instead of defending a product, ask yourself which you would rather have. My vision of a DnD game at release or Turbine's vision? Then ask yourself what logical explanations could Turbine have for not having it in game at release? No one twisted their arm and made them release early last time I checked. I was there for Beta and for release.

while i agree with your opinion, i have to say that NWN didnt have prestige classes at launch. they were added with the expansions (a few with SoU, and more with HoU).

still, i prefer to play NWN than DDO. yes, DDO is massive, but its almost all instanced, and that spoils the sense of massiveness for me. i prefer 64 players on a NWN module than 200k on DDO but everyone on its own dungeon.