The Bible has a nice number of interesting stories in it. In them, men are wicked and they are punished. Or they show righteousness and are rewarded. But is this really the case? Let's examine some of the stories.

The garden of Eden. Man is without knowledge of good or evil. Adam and Eve walk nude as they have as little knowledge of humiliation as they have of obedience. God tells them not to do something. Later, a creature tempts them to do what god told them not to. Not having any inkling about why disobeying God and obeying the snake is bad, the fruit is eaten. Now, God flies off the handle, he punishes not only Adam and Eve, but every one of their children. And for his trickery, he punishes not the snake, but all snake-kind too. And for his final act, he lashes out in fear. Adam and Eve must not eat from the tree of eternal life and become like him. No, they must be cast out. God acts out of fear. Fear that he may have an equal.

Noah's Ark. Here, god decides that he has gone wrong. He wishes to start anew, so perhaps he may get the job done right a second time. Wicked, he deems, every human on earth but handful. Women, children, children unborn. They all are killed by his hand.

Tower of Babel. Here, mankind unite under a single cause, building a huge monument to which no one shall question the wonder thereof. Mankind, in working in harmony together towards something that demonstrates their mastery over the land, their ability to devote so much effort and resources, together, to such a single goal. But god sees this differently. He covets his land as the tower approaches and he strikes the tower down, and, again out of fear, he curses man to speak in divided languages so that they may never conspire together again.

Abraham and Isaac. God asks Abraham to sacrifice his son. "Surely you love me more than your own son." God proposes. Abraham proves his devotion, nearly ready to slay his own son for the glory of god. Though he may have been stopped, the promise that he may call upon this level of devotion is evident. People who hear a command from a mysterious source may attribute it god, or may be told they are being relayed a command from god, and expected to obey. Here lies danger, as people are open to dangerous manipulation.

The first commandment. Exodus 20, where the typical 10 commandments are drawn from. The first one bears a long explanation. Touted simply as, "I am the lord, have no other gods before me", it goes on. God is jealous, and covets the attention his followers give him. And very vengefully to. So much so, that those that do not worship him shall not only be punished, but so shall their children, and their children's children, and so on for five generations, such that even the child who has never known his great grandfather shall be punished for that one non-believer.

Is this a figure so many in America look to so dearly and hold up as source of morals? And there is so much than this as well. Next time someone tells you about god's love, also remember his wrath. And his fear. And his jealousy.

Why don't we just start using throwing matches recklessly at a gas station???????

I dont think you will get quite as much flame that way though.

but ill bait.

As far as adam and eve go they had one command one temptation, they had everything they needed and could every want and were in paradise. Casting the children out of the garden of eden was the responsible thing to do, they were already cursed with the knowledge of good and evil. As such they wouldn't have enjoyed the garden much, and couldn't live there.

Noah's ark, and Soddom and Gamora are almost pure instances of wrath, in the latter of the two god barely tries to find people worth saving and it is up to the angels.

The tower of babel is a clear instance of defiance towards god, whereas if you believe in god, man was trying to surpass god. Which brings us to the sin of pride, vanity, etc.

Abraham and Isaac god is watching Isaac and protecting him the whole time, he is not harmed or discomforted in any way.

as for exodus that book is worse if you read a much closer translation.

The old testament is a pretty vengeful book to say the least.

Christianity if you read the new testament clearly refutes the old testament the blood of jesus christ destroys the old rules entirely.

The old testament is however still worshiped in Islam and Judaism.

Its less of a christian issue, and a lot more for  the older religions of family branch.

Originally posted by Vampir

Why don't we just start using throwing matches recklessly at a gas station???????

I dont think you will get quite as much flame that way though.

It is much safer to take on Christianity...you don't have the whole chopping off heads thing.

Ave Satanas

Originally posted by Vemoi

Originally posted by Vampir

Why don't we just start using throwing matches recklessly at a gas station???????

I dont think you will get quite as much flame that way though.

It is much safer to take on Christianity...you don't have the whole chopping off heads thing.

Please for the love of god i hope you all get that joke.

If you want to clump American Christians into one big group, I'd say you'd need to look more at the New Testament rather than the Old Testament.  They are distinctly different, and sometimes contradictory in regards to God's disposition toward mankind.

Edit:  I hadn't read vampir's response before I posted this...

I see we have a new local troll.

Everyone move along, allow this thread to be rightfull locked. Don't feed the troll. Nothing to see here folks, just the same flamebait/hate rhetoric...moving on...

Originally posted by Aldaron

I see we have a new local troll.

Everyone move along, allow this thread to be rightfull locked. Don't feed the troll. Nothing to see here folks, just the same flamebait/hate rhetoric...moving on...

wait, so all the posts that keep cropping up about religion are fine except for this one?

Originally posted by Wharg0ul

Originally posted by Aldaron

I see we have a new local troll.

Everyone move along, allow this thread to be rightfull locked. Don't feed the troll. Nothing to see here folks, just the same flamebait/hate rhetoric...moving on...

wait, so all the posts that keep cropping up about religion are fine except for this one?

No. All the posts that crop up that do not involve the initial post having the sole intention to bash/defame/spread hate towards a religion, are fine.

Objectively the bible is one of the most violent books out there. Given the era it comes from thats no surprise, most stories in those age where violent. If the churches have some good people, its DESPITE the bible, not because of it. Its all a mix of many sources, thus the many different "morals". Someday when humanity has evolved above religion and superstition they will see with clear eyes. Goodness is inside human beings or nowhere, its not in books of whatever nature. I mean the good Jesus cursed a fig tree because he didnt have fruits for him. Nothing that would give him a go with Greepeace, huh? ;)

Originally posted by daeandor

If you want to clump American Christians into one big group, I'd say you'd need to look more at the New Testament rather than the Old Testament.  They are distinctly different, and sometimes contradictory in regards to God's disposition toward mankind.

 

Edit:  I hadn't read vampir's response before I posted this...

So, why the persoanlity differences? Is the God of the Old Testament the same God as the New Testament? Does God have a personality disorder? Or are we talking about two distinctly different Gods?

Why the change from fire and brimstone, smoting the unbelievers, to loving and caring?

Originally posted by olddaddy

 

Originally posted by daeandor

If you want to clump American Christians into one big group, I'd say you'd need to look more at the New Testament rather than the Old Testament.  They are distinctly different, and sometimes contradictory in regards to God's disposition toward mankind.

 

Edit:  I hadn't read vampir's response before I posted this...

Okay, I'll bite.....

 

So, why the persoanlity differences? Is the God of the Old Testament the same God as the New Testament? Does God have a personality disorder? Or are we talking about two distinctly different Gods?

Why the change from fire and brimstone, smoting the unbelievers, to loving and caring?

 

 

To be honest, I don't know.  Well, I know, but don't really accept the explanation, so...  In the end though, it depends on the specific religion you are asking about.  Different ones have different stances on the Old vs New Testament.  Many even say that the Old Testament is essentially null and void as they are actually called the Old and New Covenant, which are contracts with God.  I could type on and on, but in reality you can google Old and New Testament and get a better answer.  I've always liked the Old Testament better than the New though.  I have always found it interesting that many discount the Old Testament even though nearly all Christian Churches accept that it is the part that actually contains the words of God, Himself.

Old Testament and New Testament are two different gods. Like a new age hippy movement, Christianity came preaching love, tolerance, and peace. It was easier to swallow and more enticing. Where Old Testament says nothing about followers going to heaven, as Jews only believe in Sheol, the grave, Christianity offered the kingdom of heaven to its followers. Eternal life. Of course, it also offered eternal damnation. As icing on the cake, it also is very missionary-based, whereas Judaism is more of an inherited thing.

That the Old Testament is included at all is something meant to make it easier to accept, as something meant to build on top of the current religion than merely something totally new. For examples of this happening in more recent history consider pagan holidays that have been "Christianized" to make it easier to convert the populations that celebrated them and also consider Mormonism, where more books were added to their Bible.

If you study the connections between Old Testament and New Testament, you'll find that they are rather weak. Thomas Paine did a critique on the prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled from the OT about 200 years ago.

Actually the old testament and new testament God are the same.... The old testament shows God's law, justice, wrath. The new testament shows his mercy, grace, love and his willingness to have us closer to him. I know some of you are thinking then why cast us out in the first place? God has rules just like we have rules/laws of this world. Judges obey and enforce the man made laws of this world. God is the Supreme Judge he is pure/good and evil can not be in his presence. The old testament shows how God couldnt reveal himself entirely to moses or anyone else because his power and his greatness wouldn've surely killed them. The New testament shows God coming in the form of man leaving his glory and becoming as us to save us and to show us that he loves and wants us no matter how imperfect we are.

Everyone has more than one emotion / attribute and so does God. I have patience, love, and i also have hate and anger, saddness..... does that mean im a different person? Nope simply showing my many emotions....my many attributes. To a man who has done me wrong he would see my anger and saddness side...to someone who is kind to me will see my friendly, loving side. Which side of God do you want to see? =8-)

In case you haven't noticed, man hasn't changed a whole lot. Thanks to technology, the setting has changed, but man as a whole hasn't. All of those stories well versed by Dickens and Dumas still apply, as well as even those of earlier authors.

So I ask, why wait 1000 years between OT and NT? So much time of telling people they are going to the grave, and suddenly, now they can go to heaven? Its easy enough to say they are two sides of the same coin when you have too books, but when you consider that only one book existed for a very, very long time, that argument becomes difficult to defend.

Again, I point out that adding books is not unheard of. There are the Catholic books, there are the Mormon Books. Jehova's Witnesses have their own doctrines on top of the NT. The NT could very well be the same kind of splintering as the OT. After all, not every Jew converted to Christianity. And why should they? NT is no more convincing to Jews as the Mormon's Bible is to Protestant Christians or Catholics.

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

Actually the old testament and new testament God are the same.... The old testament shows God's law, justice, wrath. The new testament shows his mercy, grace, love and his willingness to have us closer to him. I know some of you are thinking then why cast us out in the first place? God has rules just like we have rules/laws of this world. Judges obey and enforce the man made laws of this world. God is the Supreme Judge he is pure/good and evil can not be in his presence. The old testament shows how God couldnt reveal himself entirely to moses or anyone else because his power and his greatness wouldn've surely killed them. The New testament shows God coming in the form of man leaving his glory and becoming as us to save us and to show us that he loves and wants us no matter how imperfect we are.

Everyone has more than one emotion / attribute and so does God. I have patience, love, and i also have hate and anger, saddness..... does that mean im a different person? Nope simply showing my many emotions....my many attributes. To a man who has done me wrong he would see my anger and saddness side...to someone who is kind to me will see my friendly, loving side. Which side of God do you want to see? =8-)

If God is the Supreme Judge and is pure/good, why does he tell us that we should not kill, then go ahead and strike down those not up to snuff? I mean, why destroy Sodom and Gomorrah early, when those people would go to damnation for eternity anyway? Is it good, or evil to kill? Is he setting a bad example?

Also, he tell us not to covet our neighbor's wife, yet he goes and gets Mary, a married woman, knocked up with his son? Why is it evil for us to knock up another man's wife, but pure/good for him?

Originally posted by olddaddy

 

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

Actually the old testament and new testament God are the same.... The old testament shows God's law, justice, wrath. The new testament shows his mercy, grace, love and his willingness to have us closer to him. I know some of you are thinking then why cast us out in the first place? God has rules just like we have rules/laws of this world. Judges obey and enforce the man made laws of this world. God is the Supreme Judge he is pure/good and evil can not be in his presence. The old testament shows how God couldnt reveal himself entirely to moses or anyone else because his power and his greatness wouldn've surely killed them. The New testament shows God coming in the form of man leaving his glory and becoming as us to save us and to show us that he loves and wants us no matter how imperfect we are.

Everyone has more than one emotion / attribute and so does God. I have patience, love, and i also have hate and anger, saddness..... does that mean im a different person? Nope simply showing my many emotions....my many attributes. To a man who has done me wrong he would see my anger and saddness side...to someone who is kind to me will see my friendly, loving side. Which side of God do you want to see? =8-)

Okay, I'll take another bite of the apple.....

 

If God is the Supreme Judge and is pure/good, why does he tell us that we should not kill, then go ahead and strike down those not up to snuff? I mean, why destroy Sodom and Gomorrah early, when those people would go to damnation for eternity anyway? Is it good, or evil to kill? Is he setting a bad example?

Also, he tell us not to covet our neighbor's wife, yet he goes and gets Mary, a married woman, knocked up with his son? Why is it evil for us to knock up another man's wife, but pure/good for him?

 

 

Ever heard of the Virgin Mary? Jesus was born w/o sin and for that to happen he had to be born of a virgin. You taking this way out of context.

Also the OT should not just be droped. God said the sacfrice was no longer needed but didnt just say forget all the other laws.

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

The old testament shows how God couldnt reveal himself entirely to moses or anyone else because his power and his greatness wouldn've surely killed them. The New testament shows God coming in the form of man leaving his glory and becoming as us to save us and to show us that he loves and wants us no matter how imperfect we are.

As an agnostic, I have nothing of substance to add to this debate (enjoyable as it may be). I just had to comment on how this paragraph immediately struck me as "The great and powerful OZ".

Originally posted by olddaddy

 

Originally posted by daeandor

If you want to clump American Christians into one big group, I'd say you'd need to look more at the New Testament rather than the Old Testament.  They are distinctly different, and sometimes contradictory in regards to God's disposition toward mankind.

 

Edit:  I hadn't read vampir's response before I posted this...

Okay, I'll bite.....

 

So, why the persoanlity differences? Is the God of the Old Testament the same God as the New Testament? Does God have a personality disorder? Or are we talking about two distinctly different Gods?

Why the change from fire and brimstone, smoting the unbelievers, to loving and caring?

 

 

just out of curiosity...how much of the Bible have you actually read?  Be honest now.

Originally posted by Arndur

 

Originally posted by olddaddy

 

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

Actually the old testament and new testament God are the same.... The old testament shows God's law, justice, wrath. The new testament shows his mercy, grace, love and his willingness to have us closer to him. I know some of you are thinking then why cast us out in the first place? God has rules just like we have rules/laws of this world. Judges obey and enforce the man made laws of this world. God is the Supreme Judge he is pure/good and evil can not be in his presence. The old testament shows how God couldnt reveal himself entirely to moses or anyone else because his power and his greatness wouldn've surely killed them. The New testament shows God coming in the form of man leaving his glory and becoming as us to save us and to show us that he loves and wants us no matter how imperfect we are.

Everyone has more than one emotion / attribute and so does God. I have patience, love, and i also have hate and anger, saddness..... does that mean im a different person? Nope simply showing my many emotions....my many attributes. To a man who has done me wrong he would see my anger and saddness side...to someone who is kind to me will see my friendly, loving side. Which side of God do you want to see? =8-)

Okay, I'll take another bite of the apple.....

 

If God is the Supreme Judge and is pure/good, why does he tell us that we should not kill, then go ahead and strike down those not up to snuff? I mean, why destroy Sodom and Gomorrah early, when those people would go to damnation for eternity anyway? Is it good, or evil to kill? Is he setting a bad example?

Also, he tell us not to covet our neighbor's wife, yet he goes and gets Mary, a married woman, knocked up with his son? Why is it evil for us to knock up another man's wife, but pure/good for him?

 

 

 

Ever heard of the Virgin Mary? Jesus was born w/o sin and for that to happen he had to be born of a virgin. You taking this way out of context.

Also the OT should not just be droped. God said the sacfrice was no longer needed but didnt just say forget all the other laws.

Mary may have been a virgin, but she was also a man's wife. And to be a virgin indicates her husband hadn't the privledge. Unless a woman can be a virgin twice? So, did God claim the first right of a man's wife, or not? 

So, basically, God chose a married woman to bear Jesus. By that I mean he chose someone's wife.

Considering he is the Creator, couldn't he just have created Jesus as his son, couldn't that have been accomplished without sin also? Why was it necessary to use a man's wife? He had created Adam, Adam was human, God had that ability.

As to forget all the other laws, that is why prison conversions to Christainity are popular. You can commit murder, and all you have to do to be saved is to believe Jesus died for your sins. The prison teaching is that you will go to heaven not based upon deeds, but based upon belief in Jesus Christ. So, the Old Testament is out.