Darkfall

Originally posted by renier

 

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

The AI you see in games like WoW? Rudimentary and childish, much like the script kiddies who wrote it.

 

Ya you're right because everyone knows that Blizzard Entertainment hires script kiddies to code their games.

If anyone working for DarkFlop would walk into a Blizzard office for a job they would laugh them out of the building in 2 seconds flat.

Blizzard hires nothing but the most elite developers...

And even TRYING to compare Blizzard coding  to DarkFlop's is beyond laughable...  I'll gurantee you their Network code alone is so much more advanced and so far beyond anything Darkfall has that it's on another plane of existence.

Really?  I didn't know monsters standing there waiting to be attacked and walking around in lil circles was challenging AI.  I didn't know that complex AI monsters just stood there, not reacting to anything unless they get hit!  I thought monsters with AI should be able to react to different things, instead of walking around mindlessly.

Geez, I must be       to think that.

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Here's an article about adaptive AI performance optimization (purchase the full text to read it all, expect to have to pay for this kind of information).

Plenty here about game AI development.

None of this talks about the actual programming and optimization, however. That's because the information is only available at workshops at the GDCs and other such events.

You may have forgotten that game AI development is still an evolving field and those who make new findings will want to keep it exclusive, just as a scientist guards his findings until he can secure the rights.

I can't and won't relate to frustrated people who refuse to find these things out for themselves. Visit a GDC or E3 and you'll see for yourself that just about everything is possible in games these days (with the exception of real world physics and real-time water simulation or "fluid dynamics").

Most of the articles I read had nothing to do with the scaling of Bot instances with hardware requirements. That is what I have been talking about all along. Could DF have very complex Bot AI, yes. The chances that they are running enough to test the game is not. Also if you take a look at many industry leaders in gaming AI they tend to work with colleges because they are on the pioneering edge. Aventurine has not done this so it is unlikely that they HAVE developed ground breaking AI that could skill up and act "nearly" human.

Originally posted by atziluth

 

Originally posted by Plasuma!!!

 

Here's an article about adaptive AI performance optimization (purchase the full text to read it all, expect to have to pay for this kind of information).

Plenty here about game AI development.

None of this talks about the actual programming and optimization, however. That's because the information is only available at workshops at the GDCs and other such events.

You may have forgotten that game AI development is still an evolving field and those who make new findings will want to keep it exclusive, just as a scientist guards his findings until he can secure the rights.

I can't and won't relate to frustrated people who refuse to find these things out for themselves. Visit a GDC or E3 and you'll see for yourself that just about everything is possible in games these days (with the exception of real world physics and real-time water simulation or "fluid dynamics").

You should read the articles you post links to. There is an interesting link in one of them about the F.E.A.R. AI that many in the gaming industry consider a foundation to game AI development today. In that document they make a comment about how when testing their AI many players compared it to HL which was released 5 years earlier. They even go on to say that they hope the future makes larger breakthroughs since in that 5 year span perceived progress was minimal.

 

Most of the articles I read had nothing to do with the scaling of Bot instances with hardware requirements. That is what I have been talking about all along. Could DF have very complex Bot AI, yes. The chances that they are running enough to test the game is not. Also if you take a look at many industry leaders in gaming AI they tend to work with colleges because they are on the pioneering edge. Aventurine has not done this so it is unlikely that they HAVE developed ground breaking AI that could skill up and act "nearly" human.

Of course you can have some knowledge in making AI but pretending youre knowledge is of such quality that you can make us believe that youre way of discussing this topic will make us trust you and disbelieve Tasos cause you say so is just hillarious. What do you know of 2008 AI and whats possible and whats not?

Originally posted by Aragon100

 

Your knowledge in this matter is very low compared to the state of the art game developers.

But there are not state of the art game developers building this...   So I guess that would mean they don't know as much as this guy does?

Originally posted by Aragon100

 

Game development is progressing each year

Too bad Darkfall isn't.

Originally posted by EMortalOne

 

Originally posted by Aragon100

 

Your knowledge in this matter is very low compared to the state of the art game developers.

 

But there are not state of the art game developers building this...   So I guess that would mean they don't know as much as this guy does?

 

 

Originally posted by Aragon100

 

Game development is progressing each year

 

Too bad Darkfall isn't.

ROFL!!

Youre a funny one. Youre implying that the boardwriter Atziluth have more knowledge in AI then the Pro:s?

Thank you for making a fool out of yourself.=)

Originally posted by Entreri28

Originally posted by atziluth

Since I have been quoted, attacked, and questioned in this thread it is time for me to respond.

First the article I posted a link to is old. I even stated that and if you bothered to read the contents it goes beyond what was current technology and into the mathematics of scalable AI. It was also written in reference to single player games with small instances of AI.

So the article is very valid still today when estimating the resources required to run AI cycles. AI is not linear in resource use but exponential. That means for those that need a bouncy ball to follow along, Each Bot added requires more resources for it to function. At a certain point you hit a wall with hardware technology. While the wall has been pushed back since the article was written it still exists.

Many on here confuse AI complexity with the number of Bots. Both have a direct relation to hardware demands. The more complex the AI the greater resource demand for 1 Bot. Again adding 1 bot requires more resources then the previous one because the machine has to juggle each Bots cycles.

Now onto what Tasos wrote. Many hear ask how I came up with the number 5000. It is pretty simple actually. The official site says that each server will support 10K+ players. In order to test network code, server code, client stability, and game mechanics a company needs at least 1/2 of a server population to be present. Now for most betas this means inviting several thousand testers even in closed beta. Since we are talking about prof. testers (which contrary to what has been stated on here are paid employees) they probably at the most number around 100 and more likely are closer to 20 or so. That means the rest of the testing since according to Tasos it has been on going in house would have to be done by Bots. This is further indicated with the 50 or so player towns that are on the current build once again according to Tasos.

The argument about cutting edge AI and current robot technology is not even remotely related. While the robotics industry has made great steps in AI it is in reference to reaction time and manipulation of the physical world. What Tasos is talking about is the interaction within a virtual world so complete that even university simulation programs would be left in the dust. We are talking about an AI that plays almost like humans. They decide what skills to raise, where to gather resources, what to use in a fight, where to go with no set paths, and deciding when to fight/flee. These are extremely difficult to program individually and Tasos has indicated that their Bots do it all!

The resources it would take just to have 500 of these bots with this type of AI would be staggering. This kind of work just does not happen in a small indi company. They do not have the staff or the financial backing to pull this off. If they did they would not be bothering with a game, the AI alone would make more then DF ever will after being released several years.

My beef is not with DF or even with aventurine. I have a problem with Tasos month after month talking a bigger and bigger game. After all how long have we known about the professional testers. They must have had Bots by then, why is this information coming out now?

Every few months he dangles a new carrot that seems almost too good to be true. When taken as a whole the items ARE too good to be true.

According to Tasos DF will have.

Graphics that rival the industries best.

Can run on low end PCs.

No lag for massive battles.

10K+ servers again with 0 lag.

Cutting edge AI that makes mobs behave like players.

Completely on the fly self correcting graphics settings.

Huge world the size that takes 8 hours to cross.

hand crafted world that is completely filled.

 

Do you see where it starts getting a bit much. Also remember the game was feature complete 9 months ago. Tasos said they had a complete beta build ready to release immediately.

I am not telling people DF is vaporware, I only question what is being released by Tasos as truth. People have asked on here why would he have reason to lie? Aventurine is a company and as such wants to make money. They have a solid fan base, but in order to keep it until release they have to say something to keep interest. The longer the development time, the bigger the carrot has to be.

If Tasos came out and stated that they are a new company and had no clue what they were doing. That features they promised might not be in the game, how many people would stick with the game? They would bleed people to sexier games with big marketing or rivals such as the new one that just announced a few days ago. Tasos is selling something. He is selling interest in the game and he is doing it any way he can even by being misleading.

Your are right in one way. The truth will be known when it releases. Those who are hanging on Tasos every word will have their eyes opened soon enough.

Just stop, you are just making crap up.  I am assuming you are the same person from DFO forums.  Tasos was vague, so we really have no idea what the bots are doing.  He said it doesn't distinguish between players and bots, not that bots do everything a player does.  Just read my post on DFO because I don't feel like typing it all again, and I already addressed most of your issues.

Aye agree. Theyre making up stories, putting words into Tasos mouth he never spoke of. Pathetic.

 This is what Tasos said about AI last Dev Journal :

http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/devjournals/darkfalljournals/3570-Darkfall-Dev-Journal-25-Philosophy

[QUOTE] Tasos Flambouras :

Something that Darkfall has that other games may lack during testing is help from the AI. In Darkfall the game doesn't really distinguish between a player and the AI. The AI are bots actually living their life and skilling up within the game. The AI has been helping us test a large part of the game almost as if players were in it.

Our tools allow us to test features locally, we can run servers on any operating system and we run multiple clients per machine to which anyone in the office can connect to, in order to assist with what's being tested. At the moment we're testing clans and conquest and we're continuing the terrain testing which has been a long process. [/QUOTE]

Help from a AI that is skilling up ingame. I remember that even UO:s AI skilled up and that was over 10 years ago. No numbers of Bots is mentioned by Tasos, it can be 1 or 50. And testing features this way seems very possible to me, since they can run any operating system. It also seems like the smartest way to do it, with professional testers and Devs in sam location.

Originally posted by Aragon100

 Youre a funny one. Youre implying that the boardwriter Atziluth have more knowledge in AI then the Pro:s?

no actually I said that he is just as knowledgeable as the people building Darkfall since there are no state of the art dev's building Darkfall like you alluded too....

Originally posted by EMortalOne

Originally posted by Aragon100

 Youre a funny one. Youre implying that the boardwriter Atziluth have more knowledge in AI then the Pro:s?

no actually I said that he is just as knowledgeable as the people building Darkfall since there are no state of the art dev's building Darkfall like you alluded too....

You definatily know.