World of Warcraft

Originally posted by brostyn

WoW is easy. EQ is easy. EQ2 is easy. I thought EVE was easy. DAoC is easy. Every MMO I've played has been easy. Some of these games have more depth, but certainly they are all easy to master.

There is a simple concept to MMOs. Kill. Get XP. Get money. Try not to die. Name one MMO where those aren't the goals, and maybe its hard.

You get the person or NPC you're fighting to die before you. That might mean you need to get more help. It may mean you can do it on your own. People are only fooling themselves who think the MMO they play is hard. Nah, MMOs are childsplay, but they are FUN.

 

Until they come out with MMOs where you have to formulate theories on nuclear energy, or solve calculus problems, or take about a car engine and figure out how to put it back together MMOs are not hard. They are easy!

 

 

go play Anarchy Online, and try building your own implants. Try twiinking a lvl 150 gun on to a lvl 60 toon.
 Try playing a GA fixer and not gimping yourself getting it on. Play a MP, and try getting a lvl 200 pet on at lvl 110. Play a 'Crat and try not getting killed by your own pets. Build your own luxury yalm. Assemble, energise, and spawn a pocket boss.

Try SWG, and take up armor smithing, beast master, chef, or shipwright. (although anything BUT crafting in this game is just WAY too easy).

While I wouldn't go so far as to describe any mmo in and of itself as hard, I would pretty much insist that there are highly varying levels of difficulty between games.  The problem is partially that mmo's have so many varieties of gameplay within them that it's not really fair to strictly say that one is harder than another.

However, I can tell you why I think wow and its various clones are easy.  It's because all but the newest, most difficult challenges put into the game (new instances requiring large raids, that kind of thing) can be overcome most of the time with mediocre players in your party.

The thing about WoW is that if I'm in a party with a tank, or a healer, or DD, or whatever who's not very good at his job, more often than not, the party is only slowed a bit because of it.  If the other players are decently skilled at their jobs, most challenges are still relatively easily overcome.

I'm going to use FFXI as a contrast because although I've played several MMO's for a very long time, this is one that I am extremely familiar the systems in place so I feel I can best illustrate what hard vs. easy means to me.

In FFXI, if you have a tank (for example) who isn't very good at his job, the entire party constantly has to drop everything they're doing and run for their lives.  The distance you will have to run is significantly greater, it is likely at least one if not more of your party members will die while running (remember there is a death penalty both in XP and time-sink after being rezzed), and nobody will be able to save you.  Also, depending on where you are at that moment, you may in fact risk killing every other party between you and the zone barrier (god I hate the jungle, though I've heard that they've changed this to stop the mob training, i.e. making the game easier).  Now there are circumstances where the party can make up for a weak team member just like in WoW, but in most cases this player has to be an absolute GOD (very rare), or there has to be an unusual/highly creative job make-up spread across the team to deal with the eventuality...and the efficiency of the team instead of being mildly hampered by a weak player is SEVERELY impeded.

Then there's the fact that the way the various jobs interact changes significantly depending on a multitude of things: The current level of each party member, where they are fighting, what subjobs everyone has equipped, what type of weapon each person is using, and what specific mob the party is currently fighting to name only a few...what time of day it is in the world can even impact these things.

WoW tends to have required variety in combat only when going against some bosses that follow a basic script to be handled in a predefined way that any monkey can learn to do. 

As a mage or a rogue in WoW, if I pull too much hate and it's one of the general mobs in the instance, most of the time I can take it down myself and I'll just need some extra healing.  In FFXI if I'm a damage dealing class and I pull too much hate *no matter what mob the party is fighting*, everybody panics a little.  It doesn't mean we won't get control back, but it does mean there is now a decent chance the party will now have to abandon post, or wipe.  This doesn't only happen on bosses...it happens on bunny rabbits...it happens on crabs...it happens on any mob that requires a party to take down. 

Having a situation like this means a variety of things:

Firstly, your team is only as good as its weakest player...period...there is no good way to compensate for this, there are even risks with a PL. 

Secondly, it is not only the job of the players involved to fix the situation when control of a mob is lost.  immediately every player must react attentively and quickly, or the entire party has to run for their lives or wipe...the entire party *must* be good at scrambling and adapting to changes in the immediate situation or the entire party has to run for their lives or wipe...the thing is EVERY party member has to be able to do this, not just most of them, or a few of them, or you quite literally end up standing around in game for hours waiting to get everybody together again in order to kill something.

Now when you have these qualities in a WoW party, you get a really badass party, but it's not required in order to advance.  A decent party in FFXI requires significantly more coordination, group timing, communication, and attention than a decent party in WoW (I'm not talking about amazing groups, just a decent PuG that gets you through the night).  Because the costs involved for not having a decent party in FFXI are significantly higher because having to run for your life or wipe costs a LOT more in terms of time, planning, and regrouping than it does in WoW. 

The point is that having this level of complexity/difficulty forces parties to be significantly less tolerant of mediocre players.  This doesn't mean they act like jerks necessarily (although some always do), it means that, most of the time, they are in fact more helpful in getting their team members better at playing because they absolutely must if they want to get anywhere in the game (remember FFXI is an extremely long grind, the reason the game works so well is because level capping isn't the only interesting thing there is to do, unlike WoW). 

Party efficiency doesn't have even remotely the same level of significant impact in a game like WoW, party efficiency in a grind like FFXI is absolutely essential, and on top of that the method needed to achieve efficiency can change drastically by the swapping of a single party member, or weapon.  Which means you must play well, if you do not play well, your entire team either kicks you, or wastes hours of time getting nowhere fast.

Most of the time in WoW simply being level 70 is enough to get you through whatever you need to get through.  Being at the level cap in FFXI won't even stop you from getting killed just by running through about 1/3 of the zones in the game.

Originally posted by brostyn

WoW is easy. EQ is easy. EQ2 is easy. I thought EVE was easy. DAoC is easy. Every MMO I've played has been easy. Some of these games have more depth, but certainly they are all easy to master.

There is a simple concept to MMOs. Kill. Get XP. Get money. Try not to die. Name one MMO where those aren't the goals, and maybe its hard.

You get the person or NPC you're fighting to die before you. That might mean you need to get more help. It may mean you can do it on your own. People are only fooling themselves who think the MMO they play is hard. Nah, MMOs are childsplay, but they are FUN.

 

Until they come out with MMOs where you have to formulate theories on nuclear energy, or solve calculus problems, or take about a car engine and figure out how to put it back together MMOs are not hard. They are easy!

 

 

You're not making any sense.   We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.

if you're suggesting that every aspect of every  MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.

Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?

Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it.  You don't have to be any good at the game to advance.  The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games.  I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW.  All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.

Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.

Wow is much easier to play than Eve. Im not saying this makes Eve any better (it can get boring just as easy), but definately:

Eve is much more complex.
Eve has much more to learn.
If you die (lose a ship) most of the time its more of a loss than dieing 20 times in WoW, sometimes like dieing 10000 times in Wow (Titan anyone?).
You need much more teamplay.
You need to make decisions about skilling your character.

And Eve PvP is not even on the same planet as Wow PvP.

Originally posted by VultureSkull

I hear a lot of people say that WoW is easy and i don't full understand what they mean...

 

Do they mean that WoW is easy to learn?

In which case i would like to know which game is hard to learn?

 

Do they mean that it is easy to level up?

Again i would like to know about a game that is hard to level up.

 

Or do they simply mean that it is an accessible game and interface and in fact mean it as a compliment?

 

 

1) You go up in levels quicker than many other games.  I do not consider this easy, but many people espeically old timer EQ-type people think it is.  On the various boards here you can see many people saying games are way to easy because they got to some level in some amount of time. 

Personally I think this part is just silly.  But you will never get anyone who uses it to admit that.  And to some degree WoW itself uses this idea.  Just look at the time constraints on raids etc. 

2a) WoW has a very simple combat model.  This is true of EQ as well and since WoW is a copy of EQ that is not surprising.  The entier game is a very simple equation of armor, staight up % damage mitigation + healing versus damage.  The healing itself is extremely simple consistong mostly of only Heal over time or straight up static numbers.  It is a very simple equation really.

A quick examination of CoX and Guild Wars makes it quite obvious how simple and limiting the WoW game mechanics are.  Guild Wars have far more varied and deep healing mechanics and far far superior counter system.  CoX has much more options for defense and mititagation and offers a more intricate way of doing crowd control.  Just the addition of Magnitude on mezzes/stuns make CoX CC much more interesting.

2b) Also WoW for the most part is mapped out very explicitly.  You go from zone 1to zone 2a or 2b to zone 3a or 3b etc.  The instances you goto are limited to abotu 2 or 3 per level tier and for the most are very well known quote quickly.

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Originally posted by VultureSkull

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Originally posted by Ascension08

Rofl, first off you're not making the same points here. You have two different ones that you're trying to mix into one.
Point 1) You don't think WoW is easy
Point 2) You think Wow is like every other MMO
Well for Point 2, maybe that's why WoW is part of the MMO market? Because they're all similar? Wow who woulda thunk it. No one denies WoW is like other MMOs, in fact, most people argue new MMOs are all too similar to WoW.
Now, for Point 1, you'll find WoW to be a casual's paradise, and since I assume that's what you are, enjoy your game. It's hard for you. Don't try to accuse the hardcores and/or older players who used to play of being wrong just because Blizz took most of the older challenges out to cater to YOU. There's two different mindsets here, deal with it.

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If you read all the posts then you will understand what i am saying.
I hear a lot of peeps saying oh WoW is easy etc.
I am saying that it is just as hard or as easy as any other MMO out there period.
You got to look at what hard means here,
1) Hard to understand
2) Hard to execute
3)Hard to level up.
I personally don't find Wow or any other MMO hard with regards to the first two points. And possible not hard to level up either, it just a matter of time.
Lol at your post, how do you ascertain that i am not an older player. And i am not accusing anybody of anything.
My advice to you is to read through and understand posts before coming on here and making a fool of yourself by commenting on what you preceive is being talked about when infact you have no idea!
 
 

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I think by hard, in this case means depth or alot of options that can be tough to grasp for a new player of MMO's(Overwhelming sensation) Where do I go now ???..WoW doesn't really have that much surprises when it comes to this..as in you do not have many options to choose from as a new player

Look at the crafting in EQ2, even thou they made it easier than the original crafting system, it's still "harder" to understand and grasp than WoW's crafting system..It's also a tad bit more realistic than WoW's crafting...

But all in all..I agree with most of what you say here,,Easy or Hard what is that "really"...

For a MMO to be hard it need's better AI in the long run..

But ALAS..It can be "hard" to overcome a harch death penaly, aspecially if you play careless, and without death penalty people tend to be more careless

Originally posted by Wain

 

Originally posted by brostyn

WoW is easy. EQ is easy. EQ2 is easy. I thought EVE was easy. DAoC is easy. Every MMO I've played has been easy. Some of these games have more depth, but certainly they are all easy to master.

There is a simple concept to MMOs. Kill. Get XP. Get money. Try not to die. Name one MMO where those aren't the goals, and maybe its hard.

You get the person or NPC you're fighting to die before you. That might mean you need to get more help. It may mean you can do it on your own. People are only fooling themselves who think the MMO they play is hard. Nah, MMOs are childsplay, but they are FUN.

 

Until they come out with MMOs where you have to formulate theories on nuclear energy, or solve calculus problems, or take about a car engine and figure out how to put it back together MMOs are not hard. They are easy!

 

 

 

You're not making any sense.   We're talking about comparative difficulty between games, you're not.

 

if you're suggesting that every aspect of every  MMO is exactly the same in regards to difficulty because you can summarize them all under an extraordinarily generalized content label then I feel I must point out to you that this post doesn't make you smart, it doesn't make you special, and your comment here is completely irrelevant and specious...I don't care if you were kidding, you're not clever for this post.

 

Now then, if you are in fact saying that playing any of these games is easy and they pose no challenge, then how come there are so many shitty pullers, tanks, off-tanks, healers, damage dealers, team leaders, guilds and players out there in the mmo world?

Ppl calling WoW easy are doing it because they are sick of dealing with players who don't do their jobs well and still get rewarded for it.  You don't have to be any good at the game to advance.  The bottom level required in order to pass in WoW and its clones is significantly lower than in several other games.  I'd like there to be fewer players in my guild at level cap who aren't completely incompetent morons...but you don't have to develop a decent playskill to advance in WoW.  All the guild needs is a handful of good players and a bunch of mediocre ones and a copy of the script to pass around and any instance can be taken down.

 

Does this situation change much from MMO to MMO, no, not really, they are all similar in a variety of manners, but there's no way the guy who's drooling into his keyboard and initially tried to "click on a button on the hotbar" by tapping it with his fingernail should be at level 70...AND STILL TRYING TO CLICK ON THE HOTBAR WITH HIS FINGER.

People are bad players, because of a few reasons.  One reason may be they are new to the genre. Once you get the hang of tanking, or pulling, or anything it becomes second nature. Secondly, its unfortunate, but a lot of people in this world are really, really not very bright. I've seen 8 year olds play EQ. If they can do it, trust me it isn't too hard. I met plenty of morons in EQ and DAoC.

There are certainly good players and bad players, which is what you are eluding to. You want recieve any arguments from me.

These games do pose a challenge. Just a very small one. Once you have the AI figured out, guess what? It doesn't change. You've mastered it, and you can post it on the internet, so every group leader or guild leader can tell you what to do. And people follow those directions.

As for you saying I'm not special or smart. I beg to differ. God made me, so I'm special.

On a serious note, you do realize people do instanced dungeons in WoW, and its not all about solo play, don't you? Granted, one can very well get to 70 without doing it. There is PvP in WoW, which may not be the best implentation, but is certainly better than going against the same AI hours on end. There are more paths in WoW than the "easy" solo route straight to 70. Like most games, WoW is what you make it.