For starters let me warn you that I most likely will say something to offend at the very least one of you. And thats ok, because I dont care :)
Obviously this is my opinion and its worth what its worth.

One more thing before I begin, my grahmar is terrible so if my "theres" and "theirs" and "theyres" get messed up--get over it.

As a small background, my first mmo was shadowbane, I went from Shadowbane to the RvR of DAOC, did a brief stint in SWG and onto WoW. I have predominantly played caster or ranged charachters. Many call them Glass cannons. I wouldnt have it any other way.

In practically every mmo Ive played, stealthers were weak or in time broken. They were always weak in Shadowbane. Dont let any leet, hardcore, basement living nub tell you any different.

In DAOC they were overpowered without a doubt. Casters had nothing to do once a half decent rogue was on you.

In WoW, I know the word BALANCE is laughable, but I have to honestly say they have given everyone a way to get out of all the CC and its fairly balanced now. At the very least more so that any other SOLID mmo+pvp Ive played.

And with that brief synopsis behind us, my opinion :)

I think its a cop out on Mythics part to not have Stealthers.

I think they caved from the tidal wave of tears about stealthers.
If you cry about a stealther or dont like the idea, or feel that its unfair--just realize that your a emobaby. Once youve come to grips with that fact-- get over it and roll "said hated class" whether its a stealther or like in WoW a Hunter (god I hate hunters, its ok, see Im a emo baby too :P)

Back to a more logical train of thought though.

Stealthers add another layer of RvR like they did in DAOC.
And Although in daoc they were overpowered, in a good group stealthers could protect the softie casters and warn you of where they were because in DAOC stealthers could see other stealthers, or at least a whole HELL of a lot better than you could and this in turned added another layer of pvp/rvr.

I know one of you warhammer, leet boardplaying-uber-nerds is gonna tell me how its not in the IP. You know what? I COULDNT GIVE a BLEEP what is and what isnt in a IP. WIthout EAMythic, Warhammer is nonexistent as a successful mmo.

If warhammer is about WAR and PVP then lets KEEP what has BEEN IN ALL GREAT MMOS. And before someone mentions that people cant go invis in real warfare, well answer me this, whens the last time youve seen someone shoot fire out of there fingertips? Point being that its FANTASY!! IP's can be bent by the company with the most money.

For many hardcore players, its in there nature to play a stealther. Thats what they like, thats what theyve gotten good at, thats what theyve tailored there skill set around. If there were no melee in Warhammer what would you think about that? Or if there were NO casters or NO healers in game--what would you think if that was your favorite class to play?

k rants over

Im tired, worked for the last 7 days straight and have 5 more to go before I can sleep in--- sooo FLAME AWAY :)

Your not very up to date are you?  They're testing an implementation of stealth ... 1 for Order and 1 for Destruction..and it won't be like WoW stealth or DAoC stealth...though there's no word on if it'll make it to launch. 

I for one hate stealth..but only because the implimentations that I've witnessed and had to deal with were heavily exploitable and made the entire play experience for everyone incredibly unfun.  Stealth shouldn't be a way to gank fiesta your way through the game...simply a tool to help lighter characters get into a battle without being completely obliterated.

I must ask, why do you care so much if you dont even play a stealthy class? another thing to think about is that if you look at past MMO's and even a statement by EA/Mythic about DAoC, you will see that stealth layer has NEVER been successful in any MMO out there. Yes, it satisfies the addiction for those few that like sneaking around like ninjas, but ultimately devs are ALWAYS balancing out stealthers and thus creating that vicious cycle of balancing that most MMO's get stuck in and never come out of. I think it's actually about time they got rid of class that takes no skill, i mean c'mon how hard is it to stealth run up to a guy AMBUSHSINISTERSINISTERSINISTER and hope to kill him before you die? (ok i dumbed it up a bit but you know what i mean) Getting rid of stealthers is garunteed a risky move but i completely feel as tho it will only help to improve the overall quality of the game. And you know what, if all those stealther nub guys leave for another game, FINE everyone else will be much happier!

---

Originally posted by elvenangel
Your not very up to date are you?  They're testing an implementation of stealth ... 1 for Order and 1 for Destruction..and it won't be like WoW stealth or DAoC stealth...though there's no word on if it'll make it to launch. 
 
I for one hate stealth..but only because the implimentations that I've witnessed and had to deal with were heavily exploitable and made the entire play experience for everyone incredibly unfun.  Stealth shouldn't be a way to gank fiesta your way through the game...simply a tool to help lighter characters get into a battle without being completely obliterated.

---

What I read was that stealth will in no way be like it is in WoW or DAOC.
Exactly what that is, is ofcourse speculation. But what I heard was... half stealth, not being able to see them at range but seeing them partway invis once they get close...and that seemed lame. Again, thats the only thing that I could think that would actually fit that bill.

Although I do think stealthers were overpowered in daoc as I mentioned before I hardly ever saw the gank fiesta that you spoke of. If I was alone, I was almost certainly dead.

But in a group, I usually lived.

I take you two are of the crowd that loathe WoW?

---

Originally posted by mrwasted
I must ask, why do you care so much if you dont even play a stealthy class? another thing to think about is that if you look at past MMO's and even a statement by EA/Mythic about DAoC, you will see that stealth layer has NEVER been successful in any MMO out there. Yes, it satisfies the addiction for those few that like sneaking around like ninjas, but ultimately devs are ALWAYS balancing out stealthers and thus creating that vicious cycle of balancing that most MMO's get stuck in and never come out of. I think it's actually about time they got rid of class that takes no skill, i mean c'mon how hard is it to stealth run up to a guy AMBUSHSINISTERSINISTERSINISTER and hope to kill him before you die? (ok i dumbed it up a bit but you know what i mean) Getting rid of stealthers is garunteed a risky move but i completely feel as tho it will only help to improve the overall quality of the game. And you know what, if all those stealther nub guys leave for another game, FINE everyone else will be much happier!

---

Mr Wasted and to both of you ty for being so kind when I was being a ass. Im tired and cranky and Im not all for "No stealth" in WAR like some people are. Since Im not a stealther you brought up a very good point. Why do I care?

Guess its in my nature. I also dont like corrupt foreign governments that take advantage of there citizens. Why do I care? Im not chinese right? (just an example).

Other reason being, the stealther as a whole has been a part of mmos for a long time. I hate to see it go if that is in fact what happens.

I agree that it is hard to balance. Either there weak or there overpowered..it goes back and forth.

I have to ask though when you last played WoW? The game is much different. Resilience has broken classes that are glass cannonish whether they be the melee form = Rogues or the caster form = Mages. WoW has fixed somethings but surprisingly the classes that were the most broke in pvp are now some of the strongest. Basically the tables were turned 180 degrees on the dps classes. No one can burn anyone down anymore.

I play a ice mage. I can kite 2 rogues around all day, kill one and get away from teh other and probably kill him too if he has the balls to keep chasing me (all the while my cooldowns are coming up)

But even way back when, I think your exagerating how "little skill" it takes to play a rogue. And lets get one major thing straight, NO CLASS TAKES SKILL. Every class Ive played and learned has at one point felt easy. Its just a way to play..a strategy. Every toon plays differently. Once you learn the rhythym and the flow whose to say that one class is harder to play than another?

Although and in some way I guess im contradicting myself, I will say that in Blizzards feable attempts to make WoW better they have taken the "easier to play" SIMPLE classes and made them stronger than the classes that take more finesse and timing. Its like sticking a better driver into a pinto and expecting him to win because hes a better driver. The with the ferrari who has but an ounce of skill is going to win and prolly think hes the best driver in the world.

Obviously Im still looking forward to the game. I hope they blow me away with there NEW stealth idea. Who knows, maybe it will be great.

Later

either you agree....

or my posts were entirely too long to have the attention span to read thru :P

I do actually have to work when im reading these threads rofl so some just get shuffled to the Eh whatever ranks lol No offense :) And don't worry on the crankiness we all have those days!

Okay here's my take on stealth.

It's part of warfare, hell it's becoming the center of modern warfare.

But vanishing in the middle of an open field with 10 people looking at you is frickin stupid. Why can't you just hide behind a building? Why not hide behind a tree and ambush someone? That's stealth isn't it, or is it not because you don't press a button?

Why don't you be creative and put a different spin on it.

Edit: I suppose these kinds of tactics aren't practiced much in MMOs because they're based on gear and abilities not skill and strategy. But that's something I hope WAR can change. And, I agree with light stealth, i.e. blending into shadows or camoflauge, but it should be easily detectable when you're up close and should only offer a slight advantage.

Aw np man, I guess I was expecting to be flamed up one side and down the other and when that didnt happen, left me scratching my head.

I guess I just dont have it in me to be controversial.

Back to the posts and a few of my concerns unrelated to stealth.

WAR looks awesome....but when compared to WoW ( I know I shouldnt have but I have to ) how will the variety be? I mean, take a look at all the movement buffs in WoW....the trinket and the variety of crowd control spells.

Some people say that Crowd Control ruins pvp.
To me thats like saying that Nascar isnt racing because they have to make four turns....and going STRAIGHT drag style IS REAL RACING!

Get my point? Its all the little things in a fight that make the fight fun and interesting.

-what cooldowns are up
-what trinkets you have
-what racials help you win
-your spec
-your strategy
-there trinkets, there cooldowns and there spec.

PvP at its simplest = Melee vs melee fights would just come down to who had better gear.

Melee vs range fights would come down to whether the ranged charachter tried to square off or just kept running.

The warrior charge, the mages blink, all the root and snare effects make pvp interesting. For me it adds more plots and twists.

What do you think?

---

Originally posted by Ascension08
Okay here's my take on stealth.
It's part of warfare, hell it's becoming the center of modern warfare.
But vanishing in the middle of an open field with 10 people looking at you is frickin stupid. Why can't you just hide behind a building? Why not hide behind a tree and ambush someone? That's stealth isn't it, or is it not because you don't press a button?
Why don't you be creative and put a different spin on it.
Edit: I suppose these kinds of tactics aren't practiced much in MMOs because they're based on gear and abilities not skill and strategy. But that's something I hope WAR can change. And, I agree with light stealth, i.e. blending into shadows or camoflauge, but it should be easily detectable when you're up close and should only offer a slight advantage.

---

Ok I mentioned this. This argument goes to the realism of stealth.

Ask yourself this...you see people in real life shootin fire out of there fingertips?

Do you know anyone that can carry a 200lb axe around and swing it precisely?

Do you know anyone that has came up on a car accident, rezzed a person that just died? (chuck norris doesnt count)

See what I mean?
If you want realism and warfare you can play a whole host of FPS's.

And then you gotta understand, as Im sure you do, that this is a video game. You wanna wait all day behind that tree in a VIDEO GAME?....just waiting for some action?? People want what they want and they want it now. Besides all that waiting behind a tree and you finally jack some unknowing passerby, all that built up excitement, you might just have to change your pants afterwards :P

Originally posted by logangregor

 

---

Originally posted by Ascension08
Okay here's my take on stealth.
It's part of warfare, hell it's becoming the center of modern warfare.
But vanishing in the middle of an open field with 10 people looking at you is frickin stupid. Why can't you just hide behind a building? Why not hide behind a tree and ambush someone? That's stealth isn't it, or is it not because you don't press a button?
Why don't you be creative and put a different spin on it.
Edit: I suppose these kinds of tactics aren't practiced much in MMOs because they're based on gear and abilities not skill and strategy. But that's something I hope WAR can change. And, I agree with light stealth, i.e. blending into shadows or camoflauge, but it should be easily detectable when you're up close and should only offer a slight advantage.

---

 

Ok I mentioned this. This argument goes to the realism of stealth.

Ask yourself this...you see people in real life shootin fire out of there fingertips?

Do you know anyone that can carry a 200lb axe around and swing it precisely?

Do you know anyone that has came up on a car accident, rezzed a person that just died? (chuck norris doesnt count)

 

See what I mean?
If you want realism and warfare you can play a whole host of FPS's.

 

 

And then you gotta understand, as Im sure you do, that this is a video game. You wanna wait all day behind that tree in a VIDEO GAME?....just waiting for some action?? People want what they want and they want it now. Besides all that waiting behind a tree and you finally jack some unknowing passerby, all that built up excitement, you might just have to change your pants afterwards :P

And no, covering yourself with shadows to dissapear is kind of dumb too since you can see shadows (just a response to something that might be suggested.)

I see your point but drawing lines in fantasy worlds between what is realistic and what isnt... rofl.. well just think about that.

You could even change the idea behind the Stealth. Maybe the stealther is a rogue/masshypnotist--- You dont see him because he mind controlled you into beleiving nothing was there!!

TAKE THAT :P

Really though my whole beef is with the simple fact that stealthers/rogues/thieves are a staple to every mmo ever played. They are just as relevant as tanks, priests, and ranged dps.

What star wars be without lightsabers?

What would football be without running backs?

What would mcdonalds be without extremely obese folks, that you had the bad luck of getting behind in line while they order for a bus full of midget carnies.

Again I dont play the class and that confuses some people as to why I would even care. The only other charachter that even looks remotely interesting to me other than my ice mage would be a stealther. Who knows, maybe Im a stealther at heart. Ive been a caster thru so many games, I just might love playing a stealther. I will most likely leave wow for good and Id like the oppurtunity to play a interesting stealth melee class in WAR.

Originally posted by logangregor

I see your point but drawing lines in fantasy worlds between what is realistic and what isnt... rofl.. well just think about that.

 

You could even change the idea behind the Stealth. Maybe the stealther is a rogue/masshypnotist--- You dont see him because he mind controlled you into beleiving nothing was there!!

TAKE THAT :P

 

 

Really though my whole beef is with the simple fact that stealthers/rogues/thieves are a staple to every mmo ever played. They are just as relevant as tanks, priests, and ranged dps.

What star wars be without lightsabers?

What would football be without running backs?

What would mcdonalds be without extremely obese folks, that you had the bad luck of getting behind in line while they order for a bus full of midget carnies.

 

Again I dont play the class and that confuses some people as to why I would even care. The only other charachter that even looks remotely interesting to me other than my ice mage would be a stealther. Who knows, maybe Im a stealther at heart. Ive been a caster thru so many games, I just might love playing a stealther. I will most likely leave wow for good and Id like the oppurtunity to play a interesting stealth melee class in WAR.

Lol well I dunno about all those examples, but people want games who try new things right? Well a liminited and/or non-existant stealth system may turn out for the better, I support it but to each his own

wow is balanced?  you dont balance a game with gear.

so theorycraft.....

stealth = 5 sec to go into stealth and you have 15 sec to move towards a target before coming out of stealth. during which time you will be invis until you get close at which point you become translucent/shadowy hard to see.

would you take it? because remember... these classes are fighters not rogues.

the point is to help the light armored classes close on their targets. not scout, not hide not, infiltrate a keep or walk past monsters to solo a cave encounter. I for one would rather them add a charge ability like the warrior class has in wow.

Originally posted by kraiden

wow is balanced?  you dont balance a game with gear.

so theorycraft.....

stealth = 5 sec to go into stealth and you have 15 sec to move towards a target before coming out of stealth. during which time you will be invis until you get close at which point you become translucent/shadowy hard to see.

would you take it? because remember... these classes are fighters not rogues.

the point is to help the light armored classes close on their targets. not scout, not hide not, infiltrate a keep or walk past monsters to solo a cave encounter. I for one would rather them add a charge ability like the warrior class has in wow.

 

I dislike the charge ability because of the stun.  The warrior hamstrings you, walks away from you and intercepts you, rinse and repeat till the target dies.

  I really do not care for stealth, but it makes it in, some shape or another its ok.  As long, they do not put in abilities that keeps a person stun/CC till they die.

Originally posted by adfoam

Originally posted by kraiden

wow is balanced?  you dont balance a game with gear.

so theorycraft.....

stealth = 5 sec to go into stealth and you have 15 sec to move towards a target before coming out of stealth. during which time you will be invis until you get close at which point you become translucent/shadowy hard to see.

would you take it? because remember... these classes are fighters not rogues.

the point is to help the light armored classes close on their targets. not scout, not hide not, infiltrate a keep or walk past monsters to solo a cave encounter. I for one would rather them add a charge ability like the warrior class has in wow.

 

I dislike the charge ability because of the stun.  The warrior hamstrings you, walks away from you and intercepts you, rinse and repeat till the target dies.

  I really do not care for stealth, but it makes it in, some shape or another its ok.  As long, they do not put in abilities that keeps a person stun/CC till they die.

 

Rince and repeat? I don't know about intercept but I'm pretty sure you can only use charge when out of combat?

Ok so you "don't care" what people think and then you apologise in advance for your grammar...

So in fact what you mean is that you do care, just a little too much but you don't want anyone else to know about it so act like a prick instead. Well done.

You could have just apologised incase anyone was offended...

As pointed out, you're not very upto date on whats going on in WAR.

Its pretty likely that stealth will be included in the game to some extent but they are doing their best to make sure that a class can't hide permenantly and then jump out causing massive damage.

It will be more in a defensive or closing distance stealth and i suppose it will have a cool down or have some other effect that makes it short term.

Well the OP's view is pretty much complete crap in my opinion. There is hardly anything in that post which was right or made sense.

     To start with there hasn't been a PvP MMO with stealth classes that hasn't overpowered them. The comment about them being weak in Shadowbane was a joke, on War server I was a part of a guild which ran primarily stealth early, which conquered the server and I would happily have put my rogue barbarian against any of your glass cannons even without using stealth. In DAoC they bounced back and forth but for quite some time certain stealthers like the Shadowblade could insta-kill most classes and not even lose stealth while more hybrid stealthers like the minstrel could devistate groups from stealth with CC and hit and run tactics. In WoW the rogues have been broken from the beginning thanks to stealth and to CC. The simple fact of the matter is that being able to choose your fights close to 100% of the time gives an advantage which is neither fair nor fun for anyone but the stealther.

     Mythics choice to not put stealth in WAR for many reasons is far from a cop-out and I for one am glad. To begin with WAR will not be the first PvP MMO without stealth, AC didn't have stealth and to this day it is still one of the most interesting PvP experiences I have had and a ton of fun during its time. The OPs comment about people not wanting stealth being emo babies is retarded and sounds like the kind of thing a barrens chat rogue would say after his chuck norris jokes ran out. Stealth doesn't add a different layer PvP, it adds frustration and contempt. Nothing ruins a great battle between groups more than having a stealth class wait by the side lines until someone is too weakened to fend off that specific class. The side that is winning doesn't want their tactics trivialized or their kills stolen by some lamer who only contributed 2% and the side thats losing doesn't want the possibility of them making a recovery removed by someone they couldn't even attempt to prepair for. PvP without stealth puts all of the risk and reward into the hands of the people fighting the battle, with stealth there is more often than not someone around more than happy to ruin it for both sides and then talk a bunch of smack like they have skill.

      As a bit of advice to the OP, when your parents send you off to college in a few years make sure you take some speech classes, if you wanted to make any point other than that you are a incapable of making a point without trying to insult people then you failed. WAR isn't going to be changed by people like you into a WoW clone. They aren't going to add stealth just because you like it and the vast majority of the posts on the topic have shown that the community doesn't support stealth either. You see while you don't care what's in an IP, the fans of the IP and the makers of the IP actually do. When you make a game based on an IP like WAR you do so because of the fans, you do so because of the features already present which fit your idea of the genre you are working in. What your asking for is the equivalent of demanding a Naruto MMO not have Ninjas because you don't like Ninjas, it's rediculous at best.

     Hardcore players have no more of an association with stealth classes than any other. Unemployed basement dwellers either in or out of school who lack a social life of any kind, maybe, but not hardcore players. Hardcore players balance groups capable of handling all content, they work together in organized and efficient ways to get results as quickly as possible and generally to dominate the competition. Stealth classes never bring that to the table with the stealth alone and the ones that have fit the mold generally do so with the other benefits of the class which are normally high dps and some sort of CC.

     What it really all comes down to is, if you don't like it don't play it. From the quality of your post I'm positive I won't miss you on the server I play on and I'm sure Mythic won't miss your sub either. Now get out there and deliver my paper I need something to read written by an english speaker!

Originally posted by Curl

     Mythics choice to not put stealth in WAR for many reasons is far from a cop-out and I for one am glad. To begin with WAR will not be the first PvP MMO without stealth,

Um, you do know WAR will not be a MMO without stealth right?  It's in right now, however limited. So unless they actually toss it out again this argument doesn't hold up :)

Well logangregor i hope your happy because you got flamed now for what you said. Oh and i was carefully reading this thread, not ignoring you. I figured i already put my two cents in so i refrained from saying anything else. As we can see, some things are best left for the trolls. That is what you wanted.....isn't it?