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4/11/08 2:50:56 PM#21
Originally posted by JonMichael Yes it does. If a game has too few subscriptions, it is likely that it will close its doors. Building up a MMORPG char is a major endeavor and I don't want to waste time on a game that is likely to die in another 6 months. So while it does not matter to me whether WOW has 10 or 12M players (since it is so successful that it is almost certain that it won't die for few years), it DOES matter to me how many subscriptions for games like Tabula Rasa has before I would consider playing seriously.
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4/11/08 5:35:51 PM#22
Originally posted by SirBruceHeya Bruce, Not sure if you remember me from Grimwell but I posted there regularly. Hope you are doing well and all the old gang and frequent posters there are well also. Thanks for the update of the charts and all the work that you do. I tend to look at your research and numbers frequently and I also know that you do the best with that you are given. Like others have said, I, for one, wouldn't want to be the one that undertakes this and kudos to you for doing so. I look forward to your updated data and numbers when the big games of 2008 launch. Keep up the good work! |
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4/11/08 6:01:51 PM#23
Thanks Templarga, of couse Grimwell is a big man at SOE now and badmouthing my numbers. :( But hey, it's his job. Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer |
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4/11/08 6:43:02 PM#24
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Samuraisword
 Novice Member
Joined: 2/15/06
Gamers who use RMT are like athletes who use steroids |
4/11/08 7:49:27 PM#25
Originally posted by nariusseldonThis is important to me also since I am looking for the next MMOG to invest years into, not just 5 months like I did with WoW before I was bored. First and foremost a game has to hold my interest like classic EQ did, and I would consider playing a low population MMOG if I ever find another one of the same quality that is designed to be challenging unlike all the new simple craptastic games being released today. I liked Ryzom and played it for a while but the low population was a definite turn off and kept me from committing to it seriously. |
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Anofalye
Apprentice Member
Joined: 11/19/03
The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander. |
4/11/08 8:14:59 PM#26
Originally posted by SirBruce
SOE cancel button doesn't work properly. They prolly count peoples they wrongly charged and who want a refund. I hold them a grudge and I am far from done with my vindicative comments.
If anything, you should include a "cancel but denied" grey area for SOE.
EQ was a casual game in 1999, compared to other available MMOs (FFA UO, RvR DAoC, Pyramidal system in AC...). No matter what SOE says. There is room for hardcore games and system, but never at the expanse of your casuals. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn8u-JuDiFw - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation) |
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4/11/08 9:14:27 PM#27
Originally posted by SirBruce Keep up the good work! |
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4/11/08 10:33:10 PM#28
Got me what all the fuss is about, as I see it, Bruces numbers have been pretty dam accurate for years now as most on his list I have played and would easly concure the numbers just by my experiance alone as a player. Those here I believe that bash the numbers are those that have some ties to MMO's that are not fairing so well. Your only saving grace is to make an MMO people want, if you don't have the means or resources to do so, do what most people do. Find another line of work, don't bash Bruce's numbers because they put your MMO in a bad light. It is YOU that made your peice of dung, now you have to live with it. As to the Sony guys, here is a good peice of advice and you have heard it plenty, "don't fix what is not broken" and finally, your spy game has real good possibilities, I know many interested to see what becomes of it, don't screw that one up and you might just have a huge hit on your hands! salu! X "The monster created isn't by |
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4/11/08 10:42:24 PM#29
I love looking at those charts every few months. It makes me feel better about all the trash talking I did when LoTRO fanboys made a big fuss when turbine lied about having 9million characters active. The moderate fanboys said it was more like 600,000. They were both way off haha. I got to endgame before I realized that game imploded because the devs sought to please moderate and not hardcore gamers. Too late to go back and fix that mistake haha. |
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4/12/08 6:54:16 AM#30
(<Mod edit>) If it's really a useful industry tool and companies really look to its stats to judge how well they stand against their competition then great. In that case, the opinion of anyone here makes no difference either way. They either find it useful or they don't. For myself, I couldn't care less how popular a game is. That WoW has 9 million or whatever players when I played it made no difference to me... I found the game didn't keep my interest and I left. That FFXI has 500-600k players when I played it makes no difference to me. I don't care how many LoTRO has... I play the game because I enjoy it. Not so I can point to a chart and say "uh huh... .ya see that? My MMO can beat up your MMO!" My point? Some people in these forums put *wayyyy* too much emphasis and concern into those numbers as a way to prove either they're playing the "best" game, or that someone else isn't. Why do you need to justify what you choose to entertain yourself? Is the need to be validated that great for some people? Are they that insecure? Of course, many times it's merely a convenient "prop" to bolster whatever point-of-view they're trying to force down others' throats. Thus, when the numbers support their argument "they're accurate", when they don't, "they're way off" or "obviously fabricated". One of the people I parenthetically mentioned above has demonstrated that behavior numerous times in the past. He'll hastily post links to any stats he can find to "prove" a game isn't doing that great. Yet, just as hastily dismiss any that show otherwise. It's so blatantly duplicitous, I can't believe they expect no one to see right through it. The only meaning I take from any population numbers is this: Is the game doing well enough for the developer to continue supporting and expanding it. If 200k players is a large enough population to do so, then that's awesome. 199k other players and myself will continue to have a fun way to spend our time. But anyway... If nothing else, the article sure got a rise out of people here. |
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4/12/08 11:12:17 AM#31
First of all, id like to say that I appreciate your efforts and your commitment to your work. However, as many users pointed out (some in a very rude way), your data mixes valid and invalid information. If you want your work to be taken seriously, you should not mix facts with guessing, however intelligent that guessing might be. Rating sources for reliability is good, but not enough. If you mix real data (financial reports, official company statements, employee interviews) with guessing (anonymous tips, unconfirmed/unclear company statements, etc), then people will assume that all your data is just a guess. One way to avoid it is separate charts with confirmed and unconfirmed data. This way, when people compare various subs, they know that that data is solid or not. Once again, thnx for the effort. I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time. |
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4/12/08 11:16:00 AM#32
I'll accept the accuracy of SirBruce over any random rabid poster from this site. Ballpark figures are good enough for me, accuracy to a Tee is only important to accountants. I like the chart because it shows me which companies are on the up and up when they talk about their own business versus those who lie out their asses, like Turbine and SOE. Both have a history not only about misleading subscription numbers, but also in shady and unprofessional practices against their customers, mistreatment of customers on bulletin boards and so forth. All of these are reasons why I won't play their games, they just don't deserve my money. I also factor in their style of development and typical end product, which I have never like from both of those companies either. |
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4/12/08 2:38:37 PM#33
Originally posted by SirBruceBeautiful examples of your numbers being taken seriously. I never understood the semi-annual bitch-at-bruce marathon that occures with each successive release, but I've used your numbers a lot aswell. During my design meetings Ive often pulled out your charts to help look at different mmorpgs and their relative popularity. Personally I've also used them to try to find trends of things that led to what. How much of an effect bad lauches had for example. I think what Bruce has done is a great help to the industry and should only improve over the years.
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4/12/08 8:20:39 PM#34
Originally posted by SirBruce Do you really think he does that? That doesn't seem like him at all. He's usually the nice guy. In fact, I thought he used to stick up for you (not in a pervy way) now and then, back in the olden days. I still peek at his blog now and then, and I don't remember him dissing you anywhere, though I'm sure I've not read everything there. |
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4/12/08 9:26:44 PM#35
Originally posted by Signe Yeah, I was disappointed too: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=414100 Mind you, I know a lot of PR folks and they are frequently called upon to cast doubt on mmogchart as part of their job, and I am perfectly understanding of that; they aren't perfect after all. But in this case Grimwell went way too far in pretty much disparaging the whole site based on the supposed fact that some of the SOE numbers are more than 10% off, which isn't surprising since many are over a year old. But instead of simply saying in a nice way that the numbers aren't exact, he attacked the whole of the data, which honestly really hurt my feelings as in the past Craig and I had always gotten along. Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer |
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BaronJuJu
 Novice Member
Joined: 2/27/04
"Just because it happens to you doesn''t make it interesting" |
4/13/08 4:00:37 AM#36
Originally posted by SirBruce Bruce, Ihave a question reguarding a statement you made on the EQ2 site you linked. You stated: "If he is questioning the accuracy of some of the more recent numbers for games like SWG and EQII, that's understandable, but in many case those numbers are for periods a year or more ago; they were accurate *then*, but are probably no longer correct for *today*, which again is not surprising and certainly not contrary to what I claim. " Yet on your site you state for SWG in particular: "As of October 2007, sources indicate the game has approximately 100,000 subscribers, but I believe the number could be much lower. http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/" If you comment on the EQ2 site that your numbers are from a year or more ago, how can you state on your page that as of Oct '07 sources indicated a number for SWG and you have that number on your chart? Essentially, are the numbers you show, for SWG in particular, a year or more old as you stated on the EQ2 site, or are they current as of Oct '07?
"If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike" |
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4/13/08 4:09:21 AM#37
Originally posted by nariusseldon
I think you misunderstood their question. What JonMichael's asking is "If the game is popular enough to have enough players to interact with - does it matter how it ranks?" I think you interpreted it as him asking if it matters how many players it has. Of course it matters whether they have enough players to sustain the game or not. Players are a MMO's life-blood and they need enough subs to pay the bills, at the least. But as far as how it ranks? I don't think that's nearly so important - unless one cares that much about how popular their chosen game is, or needs to feel they're part of some "in-crowd". Personally, I couldn't care less. I play because I enjoy it - not because others do. |
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BaronJuJu
Novice Member
Joined: 2/27/04
"Just because it happens to you doesn''t make it interesting" |
4/13/08 7:19:03 AM#38
Sorry Bruce, one more question: On your site you state: C – This indicates that most or all of the data points provided are merely industry “best guesses” or are otherwise questionable. Usually, I will not chart MMOGs that rate C or lower. Their numbers should be taken with a large grain of salt. DAOC, SWG, PotC, V:SOH and TR are all rated as a C, yet you have consistently charted their course. If the numbers for these game should be taken with a "large grain of salt" and normally you would not chart rate C or lower, why chart them? Are the ratings for the games in need of an update or are games in which "best guesses" going to be charted from now on? "If we don't attack them, they will attack us first. So we'd better retaliate before they have a chance to strike" |
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Cabe2323
 Novice Member
Joined: 8/03/06
The nine most terrifying words are: I''m from the government and I''m here to help. -Reagan |
4/13/08 9:12:08 AM#39
I do have a question about the LOTRO numbers. It was stated that LOTRO sold over 350K copies by Augustish of 2007 in NA alone. Yet the subscribers you list are at 150K? That wouldn't be too bad out of 350K total copies sold. But what about the copies sold in EU, Russia, China, and Korea? So you are telling me that out of all of those markets the total subscriber base is 150K? Sorry but I don't believe that. Currently playing: Looking Foward too: |
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4/13/08 11:33:20 AM#40
Originally posted by BaronJuJu Perhaps I could have written that more clearly. I was speaking in general that many SOE games have old numbers; the SWG number is as of October 2007 but sometimes numbers reported can lag behind the actual numbers. Bruce
Analyst, Consultant, Writer |
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