personaly NCsoft should take private servers as a way of advertasment, like i said on another post it cant be considered copyright infregment unless you are saying it is yours and making your player pay for it, and your not giving some profit to the orignal company

Originally posted by Cabe2323

Man, I guess this is just what is wrong with the world today.  It almost makes me wish we could seperate the internet by country so it could be better regulated.  (Not really but almost)

If you can't see how this is wrong let me explain a different reason. 

If I make a movie with Mickey Mouse in it using my home computer and then distribute the movie for free (not charging anything) that still hurts Disney.  Why you might ask, since I am not making any money?  Well because I am hurting their copyright by hurting the quality of said copyright.  People will look at my version and will feel that Mickey Mouse isn't a very good character, when in reality my version may not be anything at all like Disney's version.  So Disney has ever right to protect their brand from unauthorized usage. 

The same thing goes for MMO games.  Sure the people running games might not be making any money off the game (and some of them are though) and sure the private server might be doing a better job in customer service (but not all of them are) so they may or may not be helping Lineage 2 as a brand.  For instance if the first L2 server you played on was a private server and you then decide you would like to get all of the updated patches and content so you move to the retail server, but you just can't stand how you level slower on the retail server.  In this example the private free server hurt the Lineage 2 brand because that potential customer had unrealistic expectations about the product.  Expectations that they would not have if they had never played on a private server. 

It doesn't make a difference if you use emulated code or steal the code.  In either case you are commiting copyright infringement.  It doesn't matter if you charge money or not.  It still is copyright infringement. 

But I guess so many people are blinded by their socialist views of how horrible capitalism is.   I realize that people who feel this way will totally disagree with what I have written but I hope some people who might be on the fence will realize how it is wrong to steal someone else's work and represent it to other people. 

 

The thing that people need to keep in mind as well is this isn't a case of me buying the software and then making myself a server where I only play on it.  No these people are making servers and representing a product that isn't their own to thousands of other people. 

You make good points, but the ground on which they sit is still as shaky as those supporting private servers. Do you really think Disney would come after you for making a fan-film no matter what quality it is? There are Mickey Mouse pictures and movies on the internet that are MUCH more inappropriate than a poorly made "family-friendly" movie. Just typing in a couple of keywords will bring up tons of sites - many of which are right here in the U.S. WITH legitimate URLs. If you did make something like that and got a cease and desist letter, most people would take it down because it's not worth the effort to fight it out in court, not because they were wrong to make it. It just seems to me that most people (especially corporate entities) are too fond of seeing things entirely in black and white. Probably because they're dancing in a gray area themselves somewhere else, so they blow up everything that even remotely resembles someone doing the same to them.

Nobody is saying they dont have the right to do so or that it's not legal...or at least most don't. All we were saying is they have other major issues they need to be fixed first...

...and if your Mickey Mouse gets infested with parasites in the Disney version i can write them that i dont like it and they still wont do ****....gues ill end up watching home made version because they cheer me up. Private servers offer most of us the possibility of playing the game as it was made to be...a fair game. Look at SWG there is a full team of ppl trying to make an emulated server of the game pre-CU. Think of it as a way to punish teh game companies.

Originally posted by bubu_3k

Nobody is saying they dont have the right to do so or that it's not legal...or at least most don't. All we were saying is they have other major issues they need to be fixed first...

...and if your Mickey Mouse gets infested with parasites in the Disney version i can write them that i dont like it and they still wont do ****....gues ill end up watching home made version because they cheer me up. Private servers offer most of us the possibility of playing the game as it was made to be...a fair game. Look at SWG there is a full team of ppl trying to make an emulated server of the game pre-CU. Think of it as a way to punish teh game companies.

You have no right to "punish" the game companies other then to not purchase their service.

by playing on a private server i'm not doing anything wrong...me personaly not the guy with the server. So i think it a very legal way to punish them, same as not playing and paying on their official servers...so i do have the right to punsih them ...and i said it before ill prolly even try again L2 if they do a cleanup on their servers...all those private servers should have been motivated them, but instead there are private ones that pass the official ones...now thats weird 

Originally posted by bubu_3k

by playing on a private server i'm not doing anything wrong...me personaly not the guy with the server. So i think it a very legal way to punish them, same as not playing and paying on their official servers...so i do have the right to punsih them ...and i said it before ill prolly even try again L2 if they do a cleanup on their servers...all those private servers should have been motivated them, but instead there are private ones that pass the official ones...now thats weird 

Why?  Because you're basically encouraging criminals to go back and steal more.

Originally posted by bubu_3k

by playing on a private server i'm not doing anything wrong...me personaly not the guy with the server. So i think it a very legal way to punish them, same as not playing and paying on their official servers...so i do have the right to punsih them ...and i said it before ill prolly even try again L2 if they do a cleanup on their servers...all those private servers should have been motivated them, but instead there are private ones that pass the official ones...now thats weird 

Yeah, you are doing something wrong, but lack the ability to discern it.  You are stealing from NCSoft, no matter how you justify it.  Its pretty simple.

And to those folks who say its OK if they code it from the ground up, wrong again.  Software "Look and Feel" has been protected for a long time now (Lotus Corp fought that battle back in the 80's) and Intellectual property (like lore, character design, graphics) are all protected by copyright laws the world over.

I'm not an NCSoft shill, but I do develop software for a living and fully appreciate their need to protect their intellectual property.

And to the two or three posters who claim this is all about "greed".  Of course it is. As Gorden Gecko once  said, "Greed is good".  Its all how a capitalistic society is run, we all work hard creating something of value and expect fair market value for it.

Once in a while, we hit the jackpot, and figure out how to make something for cheap, and sell it for a lot.  That's all part of the plan, and we aren't being "greedy" by wanting to enjoy the spoils of our good fortune.  Stop being so jealous of the people who have succeeded and instead work on making yourself a success.

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

You would not, in any way or form be punishable in any court on this planet for giving away free food, just call it sharity.

In fact I bet Burger King would PAY you to give away free hamburgers called whoppers.

I am not arguing about the fact that these things cost the companies money, alltough I really think the loss is miniscule and could easily be retained by NOT paying lawyers increadible amounts to sue said services.

But as one who likes analogies I need to say, yours is one of the worst I have ever read.

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

I can assure you, if you were giving away free hamburgers you would not need to call them whoppers to unload them.

 

You would not, in any way or form be punishable in any court on this planet for giving away free food, just call it sharity.

In fact I bet Burger King would PAY you to give away free hamburgers called whoppers.

I am not arguing about the fact that these things cost the companies money, alltough I really think the loss is miniscule and could easily be retained by NOT paying lawyers increadible amounts to sue said services.

But as one who likes analogies I need to say, yours is one of the worst I have ever read.

But the point remains that Piracy of software and offering the servers to other people is a competition to the owner of that software.  I just can't understand how people don't see the wrong in doing so. 

I honestly feel that people who see doing things like this as okay are the same people who would steal from stores and then claim if the company didn't want it stolen they should charge less for it. 

@therain93 ,kyleran

If you put it like that from a technical point of view in any democratic country your innocent till proven guilty,right? That means they have to prove that i was aware that was a pirate server,right? Kinda hard to prove that since I can always say i went to www.lineage(2).<insert your country> downloaded the game and played.

I have bought a Lineage 2 box from NC Soft , i am playing and paying TR from NC Soft  also, i do like to buy software so the developers can develop the software further (im working in the software business too)....but at the same time i encourage anyone to steal from developers that don't know to manage and respect their customers because it will be a waste of a good quality software and many others. If you can't do it let someone else do it.Maybe they should do it like with the medicine patents where they can produce a certain medicine for 4 or 8 (don't remember exactly) year in exclusivity then other companies are allowed to develop that too.

And for the last time I'm not talking in general I'm talking in particular about NC Softs Lineage 2 case. They do deserve it and after all this years they still don't realize why although a total success in asia it was a total fail in US and to a certin degree in EU. I'm saying they do have the right and should hunt private servers...but only after fixing the issues they have "at home" because else will be an waist of time mostly because it will be impossible to close all and even if they could those people wont go on their servers...and I'm not talking about those that couldn't afford it anyway.

My stance is pretty straightforward: If you are aware that your activities are illegal and you get caught, you should be prepared to face the consequences associated with it.

If you disagree that the activities should be perceived as illegal, you should get involved in politics and change the legislation.

As long as people accept the consequences of their actions without moaning or pretending they didn't know I really don't have the inclination to debunk this or that argument. Read the law, if you chose not to abide by it, you will potentially face consequences. If you find the law obfuscate, review previous convictions in similar cases to determine any precedence.

Be aware that there will be huge differences in this from country to country (even within the EU) so know your local law, not just the law in the country of the poster above you.

Originally posted by dodsfall

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

 

 

I don't think a company could stay in business very long offering enough free whoppers to hurt Burger King's sales.  Someone has to buy the cow meat.

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

 

u know what?  While I wouldn't say it was the worst, you are quite right.  It made more sense when I was thinking about it and I was in a hurry and didn't reread it at the time.   (It wasn't very good)

 

But the point remains that Piracy of software and offering the servers to other people is a competition to the owner of that software.  I just can't understand how people don't see the wrong in doing so. 

I honestly feel that people who see doing things like this as okay are the same people who would steal from stores and then claim if the company didn't want it stolen they should charge less for it. 

Your logic is flawed. People that pirate crap aint got the intent to buy the software, so where is the loss? Or the competition? Its money the game developers will never see, no matter what. I do however see the wrong in piracy as it hurt the business some, but not even close to the big fantasy numbers they cook up. As I said earlier, go after the ones selling the pirated software, that is a loss, not the kid downloading crap on his dads pc. And as some gamedev said a few years ago when starforce was rampant, - 'The best copy protection is quality. People will buy quality.' They even proved it, and continue to prove it with putting no copy protection at all on none of their software. Still they get one bestseller after another, with the latest of the crop is some space rts game, Sins of the solar empire I think it was called. You second statement is really out there, so no comment on it.

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Originally posted by dodsfall

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

 

 

I don't think a company could stay in business very long offering enough free whoppers to hurt Burger King's sales.  Someone has to buy the cow meat.

 

The unspoken part of this analogy is that the hamburger meat (in this case the software) would be stolen directly from Burger King so there is no overhead.

 

 

 

 

So, what if I purchased this Whopper meat FROM Burger King? I've got a L2 preorder box and main game sitting on my bookshelf right now. They've been sitting there since 2004. I bought it when it first came out, but the game quickly fell out of favor due to most of the gripes others have (minus the grinding - I was coming from FFXI ). Now, how would you feel if you bought a Whopper patty from Burger King, but could only eat it if you rented a part of the store every month? I'm sure if other industries adopted the practices of the MMO industry, you wouldn't be too pleased.

Originally posted by jaix

 

. Now, how would you feel if you bought a Whopper patty from Burger King, but could only eat it if you rented a part of the store every month? I'm sure if other industries adopted the practices of the MMO industry, you wouldn't be too pleased.

Companies have to pay for the upkeep of the servers and to develop new new expansions (atcually thats for actually keeping their customers) so its only fair to pay a monthly fee...tho sometimes it doesn't add up (see the endless $/€/£ topics). That's only fair as long as the company doesn't treat you like ****. When you buy a mmo you know what you're getting yourself into. No one stops you from buying solo games but if you really think about that it will cost you way more to keep you entertained for a month then paying a monthly fee...

Originally posted by jaix

 

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Originally posted by dodsfall

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

 

 

I don't think a company could stay in business very long offering enough free whoppers to hurt Burger King's sales.  Someone has to buy the cow meat.

 

The unspoken part of this analogy is that the hamburger meat (in this case the software) would be stolen directly from Burger King so there is no overhead.

 

 

 

 

 

So, what if I purchased this Whopper meat FROM Burger King? I've got a L2 preorder box and main game sitting on my bookshelf right now. They've been sitting there since 2004. I bought it when it first came out, but the game quickly fell out of favor due to most of the gripes others have (minus the grinding - I was coming from FFXI ). Now, how would you feel if you bought a Whopper patty from Burger King, but could only eat it if you rented a part of the store every month? I'm sure if other industries adopted the practices of the MMO industry, you wouldn't be too pleased.

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Originally posted by jaix

 

Originally posted by Daffid011

 

Originally posted by dodsfall

 

Originally posted by Cabe2323

So if a company came out and offered free Whoppers that were cooked faster and didn't have any pickles, Burger King shouldn't claim they lost business because if people wanted the real whoppers they would be paying for them? 

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.  Of course piracy and private servers are hurting the Software industry and they should be shut down.  It is illegal and it costs the people that designed the software hard earned money. 

 

 

I don't think a company could stay in business very long offering enough free whoppers to hurt Burger King's sales.  Someone has to buy the cow meat.

 

The unspoken part of this analogy is that the hamburger meat (in this case the software) would be stolen directly from Burger King so there is no overhead.

 

 

 

 

 

So, what if I purchased this Whopper meat FROM Burger King? I've got a L2 preorder box and main game sitting on my bookshelf right now. They've been sitting there since 2004. I bought it when it first came out, but the game quickly fell out of favor due to most of the gripes others have (minus the grinding - I was coming from FFXI ). Now, how would you feel if you bought a Whopper patty from Burger King, but could only eat it if you rented a part of the store every month? I'm sure if other industries adopted the practices of the MMO industry, you wouldn't be too pleased.

I would tell you that comparing MMOs to hamburgers doesn't make much sense which is why most analogies fail, because they don't accurately represent all the finer points of what is being discussed.

 

 

 

Haha, we've already established that it's a pretty bad analogy (even the original poster of the analogy acknowledged it), but it's been the one used for the length of the thread, so we have to make do with it

And to bubu_3k - that's the issue being discussed - why should it be wrong to play on a private server when you choose to forgo any expansions or the other benefits of live servers, and remove the overhead of maintaining YOUR character? "You know what you're getting yourself into," goes only so far and I don't know if it can go as far as it does for the MMO industry.

Originally posted by bubu_3k

@therain93 ,kyleran

If you put it like that from a technical point of view in any democratic country your innocent till proven guilty,right? That means they have to prove that i was aware that was a pirate server,right? Kinda hard to prove that since I can always say i went to www.lineage(2).<insert your country> downloaded the game and played.

I have bought a Lineage 2 box from NC Soft , i am playing and paying TR from NC Soft  also, i do like to buy software so the developers can develop the software further (im working in the software business too)....but at the same time i encourage anyone to steal from developers that don't know to manage and respect their customers because it will be a waste of a good quality software and many others. If you can't do it let someone else do it.Maybe they should do it like with the medicine patents where they can produce a certain medicine for 4 or 8 (don't remember exactly) year in exclusivity then other companies are allowed to develop that too.

And for the last time I'm not talking in general I'm talking in particular about NC Softs Lineage 2 case. They do deserve it and after all this years they still don't realize why although a total success in asia it was a total fail in US and to a certin degree in EU. I'm saying they do have the right and should hunt private servers...but only after fixing the issues they have "at home" because else will be an waist of time mostly because it will be impossible to close all and even if they could those people wont go on their servers...and I'm not talking about those that couldn't afford it anyway.

You are wrong.  They do not have to prove that you were aware of this.  They just need to make a good argument that the jury believes that a "reasonable" person would be aware of their actions.  That is easily done, since you had the retail box, but made a conscience decision to go download the game from a different site.

Irregardless, I feel most of the comments here are ridiculous.  If you want to steal and are proud of that, than just say that.  To try to convince people that stealing is morally ok is just stupid.  To further suggest that it is the company's fault that you want to steal the game shows a failure to take responsibility for your own actions.

No one has a "right" to play a game.  If you want to play it, pay the owners.  Otherwise you shouldn't play.

Ok, my question is simply this.. how is using the art/game assets in a private, open source game server/engine any different from creating Machinima? Either way, you're using the software devs' game assets for a fan-created project that was not intended.

So is Machinima a copyright violation as well?

If the private server charges a fee, then yes, it's a copyright breach. Just like it would be for someone to create a video using game assets and then charge for it. Likewise, if someone downloads a retail version of a game without paying for it and uses it to play a private server, that would be a copyright violation as well.

But if someone pays for a retail copy of a game, or uses a freely released (by the original production company) trial version of a game to play on a private server, that simply would fall under fair use, no? The person paid for a copy of the game assets or acquired a legal and freely distributed copy of those assets, and they're simply using it for their own enjoyment.

I have no qualms with software developers charging money for their IPs--I do it as well, but if you're going to go to extremes to prosecute those using your IPs fairly then you really need to make sure you prosecute all instances of copyright violation--which would include fan-made videos and screenshots and desktop backgrounds, etc...

Using a private server is simply fair use of previously purchased copyrighted material--unless you've stolen the actual company's server code or executables.

Originally posted by bubu_3k

@therain93 ,kyleran

If you put it like that from a technical point of view in any democratic country your innocent till proven guilty,right? That means they have to prove that i was aware that was a pirate server,right? Kinda hard to prove that since I can always say i went to www.lineage(2).<insert your country> downloaded the game and played.

I have bought a Lineage 2 box from NC Soft , i am playing and paying TR from NC Soft  also, i do like to buy software so the developers can develop the software further (im working in the software business too)....but at the same time i encourage anyone to steal from developers that don't know to manage and respect their customers because it will be a waste of a good quality software and many others. If you can't do it let someone else do it.Maybe they should do it like with the medicine patents where they can produce a certain medicine for 4 or 8 (don't remember exactly) year in exclusivity then other companies are allowed to develop that too.

And for the last time I'm not talking in general I'm talking in particular about NC Softs Lineage 2 case. They do deserve it and after all this years they still don't realize why although a total success in asia it was a total fail in US and to a certin degree in EU. I'm saying they do have the right and should hunt private servers...but only after fixing the issues they have "at home" because else will be an waist of time mostly because it will be impossible to close all and even if they could those people wont go on their servers...and I'm not talking about those that couldn't afford it anyway.

That's some self-serving (and short-sighted) morality you have there.

I find it interesting how you opted to open with an innocent until proven guilty stance to wiggle around the issue.  If you were so passionate in your beliefs, you would accept the consequences and use it as an opportunity for change.  No, I don't think so -- your justification is flimsy.  Even if you're found innocent based on lieing (sp?) in court, now suddenly your illegal server has justified NCsoft's stance that the look and feel is deceiving and ultimately stealing customers (because technically NCsoft doesn' have to prove that illegal players would pay).  Law enforcement isn't going to come after you though, they want the big fish.

Tangent: You, in the software business?  Color me skeptical.  If you're in the software business then you are either an administrative assistant or stuck in the bullpen with 30 other coders so far removed from decision making that you perceive no ownership of the product and thus have no empathy that would otherwise reinforce a basic moral compass.  Not like it matters what you claim anyway (since this is the internet.....)

So far as you buying Tabula Rasa and paying for it, well that's all well and nice.  NCsoft owns the game and it deserves to recover and profit from that endeavor just like it does for any other game.  It sounds like you're suggesting it's okay to steal the dvd from the shelf because you paid for the bubble gum at the counter -- that logic doesn't fly.  And encouraging people to steal because the company has poor customer service is just perverted logic at best.  If you're so disappointed with that customer service, you should dissuade people from using the product, perhaps suggesting to play something else -- that sends a clear message to NCsoft that their practices aren't good enough. 

As KorovaMB says, man up and admit you're stealing -- claiming that you're justified because you don't like a part of the service does not justify taking it illegally.