Originally posted by eugam

Biggest flop ? Nothing beats D&L. To beat D&L they have to release empty boxes.

 

I do see a lot of havoc. Not from people with medicore PCs. Quite the opposite. Hardcoregamers with highend rigs and very high (unrealistic)  expectations will complain most.  I think launch will be rather smooth and they probably will have 250k players after the first 3 months.

 

I do however feel as if you are overly optimistic about the population. If it moves 150K boxes off the shelf at launch and then retains more than 50% after the first month I would be very surprised. Maybe 100K after the first quarter if Funcom has a mediocre or better launch. There is just not that much room in the MMORPG world anymore, people have their favorite game and while they may bitch the whole time tend to stay there and complain when any game is not just like their old favorite.

I think AOC's biggest fans may be those who enjoy single player RPG's. Balance as some people have already pointed out will be the hardest thing for Funcom to overcome. It's always a bitch to balance the PVE and PVP issues.

I will still maintain this will be a game that starts with a medium population (40 - 50K in N America and  maybe another 50 to 75K in Europe )  and grows over time.This is one of those things I would be happy as hell if it turns out I  am dead wrong and severely underestimated those figures though. The genre needs a good new title and I have been a Conan fan longer than most of you have been alive.

For what it is worth I have more faith in Funcom than I do in SOE for fixing whatever problems it has at launch. I myself am leery of pre ordering ad probably will not be there at launch day unless I get in the beta at the last minute and like what I see. However I will be watching some of the smaller forums and talking to friends and if it looks like issues I can live with I will pick up a box the after a week.

Biggest flops:  AC2, Horizons, Anarchy Online (the other FunCom game), Vanguard 

I think that the industry in general expected more from AO and AC2 so they were bigger letdowns but Vanguard probably lost the most money. 

DDO could also probably be on the list but we weren't really expecting too much from Turbine at the time and the game isn't horrible. 

You can't say that a game is going to be a flop just because the company hasn't produced enough public info yet.  That's like making something a proof just because it can't be disproven (Jesus lives on Pluto now).  But if this game does flop it will be on the list.

I believe MOURNING still holds the title of "biggest flop" quite well.  Launching, getting only a couple thousand players, taking those players' money, then closing down the servers under a week later and shutting down for good is a complete and utter flop that is hard to surpass.  ;)

I think AO was a "flop that recovered".  They did a very good job bringing that game back from the brink.  And hopefully they've learned their lessons from AO about when a game is ready for release and when it's not!

Originally posted by Alan0n

 

Originally posted by Bigdavo

On another note, it'll be interesting when the NDA hopefully lifts, because these speculation threads are like every other speculation thread.

Will NDA be lifted ? That is the big question atm. 

 

Still thats just specualtion but I dont think it will be before release.  Or even the first month afterwards if the game has had torrid time in Beta.  Then it will all be about trying to make as much from early sales and that wont happen if Beta wasn't smooth.

A long time past when I was playing AO there were a bunch of conversations going on the forums about this exact thing, and it seemed a good majority of the community agreed with the non-NDA lifting approach.  They trusted FC to give them the information they wanted, and they'll judge the final product themselves when it's released.  They didn't care about what went on in beta, just what was happening in the release of the game and its expansions.

Personally, I have no reason not to trust FC or doubt their confidence in any of their products.  They may not give you the "straight poop" on their main pages, but if you do a little hunting you will find some employee giving you candid insight to nearly any topic you're curious about.  It'll just take a little work/time.

<<  There is just not that much room in the MMORPG world anymore...  >>

Every few years something comes out that pulls in more subs than anything before it.  But people have been saying that the market is saturated since before EQ1 came out.

There's plenty of room in the WoW fanbase for some people to leave if something that does a few things better comes a long.  And some people really do switch games even if they have sentimental favorites.  It's not about absolutes, if WoW and other games lose a few percentage points and AoC gets them, AoC will be very happy.  My guess is that more than a few percentage points will try AoC unless it crashes and burns horribly.

 Alan, I understand and appreciate your concerns but I just don't share them. 

 Starting off with single player aspects to the game that moves on to a traditional multi-player MMO gameplay, which caters to solo'ers, pve'ers and pvp'ers throughout, from then on.  Yeah, it's a MMO, in every sense.

 -You choose to solo the whole way to lvl cap, fine, but your missing out on a lot.

 -You choose to pve, strictly, you miss out on the pvp aspects but raiding is still there and it's a serious focus, in the game.

 -You choose to go all out and pvp/pvp siege it'll be there for you.  But pvp sieges aren't a matter of loggin and deciding your ready.  You'll need a guild, highend crafters, pve city, time and resources to make that happen.  

 You could always merc' yourself out but it'll be when others need you and on their schedule.

 So, if your thinking that pvp battlekeep sieges are happening within the first 1.5-2.5months, you best be in a guild of, atleast, 50+ dedicated members.  But, even then there will be standard pvp instances, and the tower sieges, in the siege grounds.

 If your worried about CB tester's opinions, just remember there's nothing saying a development team has to show off everything about a game before it's launch; or that CB testers always get to test everything out, first, before a launch. 

 It would be nice but all development companies rely on the Alpha testers a bit more than a casual beta tester. 

 Seing how, in a CB, 35-40% of the testers are really carrying 80%+ of the load, in doing what's intended for a beta tester to accomplish.  While the rest are just there for an early look at the game. 

 Oh! maybe that has something to do with these invisible walls, afterall.  Funnel them where there needed, not where they like to be.  ../shrug

 Yeah, they'll offer mounts in a game so you can just sit there stuck in your mime box. ...lol! Right.

 It's fine, I understand you want perfection, to bad that doesn't exist anywhere in life.  

Im just curious how anyone can consider games a flop if they have been operating for 5 years or more.

If the game was so bad it wouldnt be around period, more than likely cancelled when it started to lose money.     If the game has a loyal fanbase and makes enough money to keep going and pay the bills...well its a success.

In the case of Vanguard...Sigil was a new company with no games under its belt, just a few veteran developers and they were destroyed for making VG. SOE breathing down thier neck and the only reason it is still going.

 In the case of Age of Conan you have Funcom who have several games under thier belt and one of if not the oldest / first Sci-fi MMO Anarchy Online.

So yes AO was buggy it was thier first MMO, but a business would not make several expansions and continue going if it was losing money.  So perhaps not as popular as some sure, but not really a failure.

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Originally posted by Alan0n
<Mod edit>

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This game has been a solo game for years, for the first 20 levels,  if you didn't know then you don't know much about the game.  It has not been designed for you to run around with your buddies from the get go.  If you come on here complaining about it being a solo game or about it being linear you had better read up on the developement of the game from the beginning.  It has only RECENTLY been changed so you can have LIMITED interaction with your friends at the early stage of the game.  And of course the game will be more linear at the beginning because you are following destiny quests to develope your character into something that has a clue as to what is going on in the game.    AFTER getting a clue, you get to run around with your buddies in a more open world.   

"There are invisible walls everywhere."  So what, you are going to let 10k beta testers run all over a 180 sq. mile world?  How exactly would that test anything?  You create barriers to limit them to areas simulating a higher population.   If you want to let in 3 million beta testers then you can open it up but with the limited amount of testers that would be ridiculous.  If you want to let in 3 million testers please enjoy processing the feedback from that many people.  

I don't know how you will have only 100,000 box sales when you have more people signed up for the beta testing alone.    At least 3/4 of the people who buy  games don't know what beta testing is and/ or have no idea  as to how  to go about getting involved in it .  I would take the number signed up for beta and times it by 3 for a conservative beginning sales number.  

Originally posted by Antarious

Well first off the title of your thread is a tad off...

The biggest flop in MMO history (and AoC can't surpass it) was Vanguard.

Why?  With all the "hardcore" EQ1 people that expected a return to that type of game.  Brad McVanguard.. I mean he was like a god who walked the earth and created game worlds.

AoC.. well Funcom... for an MMO they have shown us Anarchy Online.  I was there.. I played it from launch for about two years.  Heck I even beta tested it.

I'm suprised that the game... is still around and to some extent that Funcom is still around.  (I'm not bashing funcom).

Anyway the point is.. to be the biggest flop.. you have to have the biggest anticipation.. and AoC just isn't there.  I have it pre-ordered... but its no where near the top of my "MMO's I was most excited about" list.

Beyond that...

Are you in beta?

Has there been some massive bunch of NDA leaks/breaks I'm not aware of? (as with vanguard).

Or are you just basing everything you are posting on videos you've watched that were made to show a certain aspect of something.

I mean I'm in another beta.. where they show amazing videos... but no where in the "beta" version of the game.. can you find what the video's show.

So I guess there are two extremes to that video thing... Not showing enough.. and tech demo's that don't actually exist in your product.

I have to say between Vanguard or Dark & Light, Vanguard may win the title of Biggest Flop in MMORPG History.  That is a tough choice.  I believe that what puts Vanguard over the top is the confirmed drama that surrounded the development of the game and demise of the company.  From May to June of last year, it was amazing to see the Sigil saga unfold infront of our eyes.  It is very rare that a company that goes belly up has so much of the drama confirmed to the community the company was to serve.

The success or failure of AoC and Funcom will be realized over the coming weeks.  We all know by the 1st of June if the game will flop, survive, or to very successful like EQ2 or LOTRO, or WoW.  By June first, we'll know the story. (IF they release on time)

Originally posted by kujii

This game has been a solo game for years, for the first 20 levels,  if you didn't know then you don't know much about the game.  It has not been designed for you to run around with your buddies from the get go.  If you come on here complaining about it being a solo game or about it being linear you had better read up on the developement of the game from the beginning.  It has only RECENTLY been changed so you can have LIMITED interaction with your friends at the early stage of the game.  And of course the game will be more linear at the beginning because you are following destiny quests to develope your character into something that has a clue as to what is going on in the game.    AFTER getting a clue, you get to run around with your buddies in a more open world.   

"There are invisible walls everywhere."  So what, you are going to let 10k beta testers run all over a 180 sq. mile world?  How exactly would that test anything?  You create barriers to limit them to areas simulating a higher population.   If you want to let in 3 million beta testers then you can open it up but with the limited amount of testers that would be ridiculous.  If you want to let in 3 million testers please enjoy processing the feedback from that many people.  

I don't know how you will have only 100,000 box sales when you have more people signed up for the beta testing alone.    At least 3/4 of the people who buy  games don't know what beta testing is and/ or have no idea  as to how  to go about getting involved in it .  I would take the number signed up for beta and times it by 3 for a conservative beginning sales number.  

Well - its kinda funny that my post about first 20 lvs beeing about solo content was deleted if it was known from the start.  But since the first 20 lvls were intended to be single player I wonder if the game world is actually playable as multiplayer ?  Hope they have redesigned the "orginal" then cause we might be in for lagfest in a small world starting area.

im tired of all these fucking threads. go do something and shut up until the game is released

Someone mentioned saving up a few grand for a good pc. I just built a pc and only spent $800 all together with shipping for the parts and have a top-of-the-line PC. If your a smart shopper its not near that expensive.

I have : 2gb RAM, 3.2ghz AMD dual-core processor, 250gb HDD, Vista, and Nvidia 8800GT 512mb card. So it's not expensive if your a smart consumber, as with anything.

simple answer really

the game will own

why you ask?

because it just will own.

I'd like to start off by saying that the Top 3 MMO flops, at least in my book, are:

1) Mourning. This game and it's company drew more negative criticism than any other MMO company I have ever seen in history. Research Mourning, and tell me I'm wrong. You can't.

2) Vanguard. Vanguard failed because a) massive developer hype WITHOUT anything to back up the claims, b) Brad McQuaid, and his horrible mismanagement of funds, time, personnel, and direction of the project, and c) raging, retarded fanboys; the kind that lied so fervently and rabidly during the beta phase, that many bugs weren't even addressed, because legitimate beta testers were deterred by their negative attitudes. I, personally, consider Vanguard the biggest failure ever from a company who had adequate time, funding, and personnel.

3) Asheron's Call 2. For those of you who played the first one, you know the fun that was to be had. You wanna know how else it was terrible? It's one of the only MMO's that isn't running anymore.

Now that I got that off my chest, let's move on to Age of Conan.

I'll start off by saying that I'm not in the beta. I wish I was. I've made requests on this board, and on many others, for a beta key. However I was unsuccessful. So everything I say here are simply educated guesses, speculation, and personal opinions.

I think the biggest problem with this game (initially) will be performance issues. The system requirements are demanding, period. No matter how you slice it, this game is designed to look pretty, and as such, you're going to need a pretty solid graphics cards. I know people don't like buying new ones every year or so; I happen to be one of those people. So for the folks who are dancing along the lines of the minimum requirements, I have a feeling we're going to see a lot of threads here discussing poor framerates, lag, and the usual sort of problems faced by lower-end machines. A potential problem that I used to experience in AO regularly were the CTD's. I hope that crashes have been addressed. I don't mind the occasional bug, but when the game was constantly crashing for no apparent reason, it forced me to lose interest in the game.

A second problem is always the hype. I think a LOT of people are hungry for a new game, especially after the dismal failure that was Vanguard. LotRO was a solid game in my eyes too, but I don't think a lot of people are playing that necessarily because it's a unique game (it's really not, but it's still a good game) but because they need something to bide their time. Compliment that with the fact that WAR was delayed again, and you've got a huge pool of "Maybe" category players who have not/are not doing their homework on the game, and will set unreasonable expectations about this game, which may or may not be met. AoC is the next big MMO coming out; it'll draw in a lot of 1-monthers. The question is whether or not it can impress and retain those one-month players.

I am also in the group that believes in showing off your open beta. You need to have confidence in your product by now, and if you don't, then delay it. While I wouldn't be pleased, I would rather have a full year of delays before I ever play another Vanguard again.

Then there's just the little things that make or break the game for each individual. For example, I strongly despise the idea of instanced player cities. In fact, a huge determining factor of whether I will or will not stick with this game will depend on how much I love/hate this system. I *am* a fan of minimal guild involvement, so the whole being able to solo all the way to the cap is spectacular in my eyes, but I'll have to see the end-game. Lastly, I'm curious to see how significant the crafted gear system works. I for one have always despised the best items coming from monsters, and I'm hopeful that the synthesized armor with the proper gems will be able to match raid-quality gear. However, I would imagine many people would disagree with me here.

I think, much like Jackdog said, this game will have a fairly average-solid beginning. I would expect no less than 150k subs, regardless of it's problems. Why? Simply because there's nothing else "fresh" out there.

I suppose we'll really just have to wait and see though, eh?

www.canyourunit.com

Go to this site, it checks your computer compared to the released specs and lets you know how well the game will be run, and where you can upgrade your unit to make it work better.

Originally posted by MaGicBush

Someone mentioned saving up a few grand for a good pc. I just built a pc and only spent $800 all together with shipping for the parts and have a top-of-the-line PC. If your a smart shopper its not near that expensive.

I have : 2gb RAM, 3.2ghz AMD dual-core processor, 250gb HDD, Vista, and Nvidia 8800GT 512mb card. So it's not expensive if your a smart consumber, as with anything.

4 gig ram is better. Especially for an MMO, and you'll be running that pile of shit Vista in the background too.

DOOM THREAD

This NDA beta debate to me seems a little weak.  We all want a complete and polished product no matter what we purchase.  So why then do we as MMO players absolutely have to have the inside scoop on everythin an MMO does?  I don't see movie fans bitching becuase they can't see a film in post production.  And honestly why would you want to?  Of course the movie/ game is going to be crap.  It hasn't been polished for release.  All you get are people who have limited experience of beta running around screaming doom becuase they tasted a 10th of a game which isn't finished.  And low and behold they are disappointed because the game isn't up to expectations.  Seriously what the f do you expect?

*passes around doom & gloom cookies*

Tea or coffee to go with that?

Anyways. "Biggest flop in history of MMOs incoming ?" I hope not. Can it get worse than what I've read happen to certain MMO's during/a couple of months after launch?

All I know is it can only get better with time. I hope Funcom listens to feedback and not whining.