Originally posted by Riddikulus

 

Originally posted by Hvymetal

While I do agree that blanket immunities generally suck and seem to be an easy way out, I can also look at the other side and realise something had to be done. Let's face it the raids were trivial and to some extent the still are (well most of them).

However, like any MMO & and P&P game with a semi-decent DM adjustments will be made to nullify abilities that trivialize the quest. That I don;t have a problem with. I mean really, the Titan was completely a joke when people could trip and cometfall him, not that it's much harder now but at least it does require some thought going into it.

 

 

And if I remember correctly Ridd used to be with Role Players, only ran with his Cleric once in PoP on my WF pally. However I could be mistaken since I have basically relocated to Arrgo & haven't played on Khyber in a few months..... I wondwer if I am still in my old guild Unearthed Arcana??

Raids were largely trivial even with red/purple name immunities.  I don't think the addition of trip to the list of immuntiies really changed much.

 

The big problem I see with DDO raids is that they do not make much use of mob synergy.    You are generally a team of 12 beating on a single mob.

The dragon should have a couple dragon dudes hanging out helping her out.   The stormreaver should be able to command the air elementals to swarm the party, etc.    Just doing this would make raids much more difficult and it would really be so difficult that you could remove all blanket immunities without making it too easy.

 

I originally started with the Band of the Five Fingers, which got merged into Deities & Demigods which split off into Lava Divers.

 

 

I agree with your veiws on the raids.

Band of Five Fingers, I remember them had a RL customer at my job that was a Cleric in that guild, can't remember his name, Phillipino dude. Ahhh Dieties, sorry didn;t remember that but yea I do remember the guild and some kinda stink that caused the split. 1 Big reason I try not to get into Guild Politics and PUG a lot:)

And I believe Madd was refering to the fact that it is hard as hell to hit a mob from behind now, I wouldn't say the feats worthless (well Mobility is but then again it always was), I can still hit from behind just have to move to the side of the mob a little and run nearly parallel to it to score hits. I would say that Spring Attack was perhaps devalued a bit, but then again I never really took to that line.

As to trip, ect. a Tactical Fighter is still valuable against 99% of the encounters, anything without a red or purple name. I have a Warforged Intimitank that has Stunning Blow and Improved Trip, I still love them and still think they are valuable feats.

Originally posted by madkk

Originally posted by Talyn

Welcome to the difference between an RPG and a videogame.

If all you did in pen-and-paper was walk up and trip every monster around, your DM would most likely "nerf" you too... If not, he's an idiot.

"Rules" are just "guidelines" if I recall the books saying, and can be altered or outright ignored to suit the situation at the DM's prerogative.

Otherwise all I'm hearing is "waaaaah! I didn't get my way, I'm the only player who matters and they won't do what I want!"

 

Then can you please explain what purpose rules serve if they are to be disregarded at the slightest whim?

Perhpas Dave is right perhaps the Gygax comprehensive paradigm is a pipe dream.  MMORPGs seem to be supporting Dave more than Gary.  The problem is older than video games.

Originally posted by madkk

The monsters shouldn't have ANY  immunities other than what are found in the monster manual for D&D v3.5.

You should be able to use any special attack or spell against any monster provided the monster does not have a race specific resistance or immunity in it's Monster Manual profile.

Remove blanket immunities and let the DICE sort it all out.

It is a d20 system, after all.

Well, the 3.5 MM has a system for making "unique" versions of every monster, so giving them "extra" blanket immunities is not beyond the rules...then again, it should raise their CR by quite a bit.

Originally posted by madkk

The D&D v3.5 rules are quite clear on the subject:

If a creature has legs that it uses to stand with AND the creature lacks the ability to fly or levitate, then it should under NO CIRCUMSTANCES be immune to trip (unless the creature is tethered to the cieling with a chain...but that is a different scenario).

Think about it for a second.  The Wizard King is a litch.  He's a frail undead caster with little skinny chicken legs and really low DEX and STR scores.  The ideal character for fighting this litch should be a tank with improved trip, since the Wizard King SHOULD be easily tripped.

Turbine is a horrible DM.  Turbine is the worst DM in history.

Think about the kind of DM that Turbine has become.  If you build your character TOO well, Turbine the bad DM will step in and arbitrarily make the bad guys immune to your characters attacks.  Hrmph!

If a DM at GenCon behaved this way, then that DM would be the laughinstock of the D&D community.   Such a DM would be ridiculed and derided into silence by the rest of the D&D community that ACTUALLY RESPECTS THE GAME.

This is just like the kid who brings the basketball to the courts, gets pwnd, and then leaves with his basketball because, "the other kids wouldn't let him win".

Turbine only follows the D&D rules when it suites them. If they see someone using their brian to figure something out well, they can't have that and they nerf your ability to do what ever it is that you are trying to do.

They made a RED dragon immune to cold damage for Christ sake lol.

Originally posted by Caligulug

 

 

They made a RED dragon immune to cold damage for Christ sake lol.

I haven't tried it but I'm pretty sure that is dispellable.   She's not a stupid dragon, she has spells so she casts protection from cold on herself like any other caster would.

Originally posted by Riddikulus

Originally posted by Caligulug

 

 

They made a RED dragon immune to cold damage for Christ sake lol.

I haven't tried it but I'm pretty sure that is dispellable.   She's not a stupid dragon, she has spells so she casts protection from cold on herself like any other caster would.

A lot of the complaints I see about nerfs, ect.. seem to me to come from individuals that have a hard time adapting to changing environments. Personally I like changes, they keep challenges fresh and keep the boredom from setting in IMHO.

I agree with the OP fully.

Turbine hired the wrong people to design their D&D game, plain and simple.  The game completely lacks the realism that has always been the goal of the D&D franchise in both computer and tabletop versions.  Instead of making interesting, imaginative, realistic quests full of roleplaying and strategy, they have made a horrid beatdown-the-boss game of loot and hack-n-slash.

Don't worry, people will be quitting when the current generation MMORPGs start arriving that actually appeal to the RPG crowd.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

I agree with the OP fully.

Turbine hired the wrong people to design their D&D game, plain and simple.  The game completely lacks the realism that has always been the goal of the D&D franchise in both computer and tabletop versions.  Instead of making interesting, imaginative, realistic quests full of roleplaying and strategy, they have made a horrid beatdown-the-boss game of loot and hack-n-slash.

Don't worry, people will be quitting when the current generation MMORPGs start arriving that actually appeal to the RPG crowd.

Oh wait, I forgot...D&D is real!  Hey, have you all just seen that hot Elf babe who works at the local cafe?  Her manager is a REAL Ogre!

sheesh. 

It reminds of being 8 years old and arguring who would win a fight, batman or spiderman.  And don't start, we all know Batman would kick Spidy's ass!

Originally posted by mindspat

 

It always cracks me up to see someone use "realism" as an arguement agasint a game, not to mention a Fantasy Game at that!  Let me go get my spell book...

 

Oh wait, I forgot...D&D is real!  Hey, have you all just seen that hot Elf babe who works at the local cafe?  Her manager is a REAL Ogre!

sheesh. 

It reminds of being 8 years old and arguring who would win a fight, batman or spiderman.  And don't start, we all know Batman would kick Spidy's ass!

 

Yes, D&D is a fantasy game.  It's also a role-playing game, which means you actively attempt to emulate real life [in a fantasy setting].  That's why they call it a Fantasy Role-Playing Game (FRPG).  As a current fanboy of DDO, I can completely understand why you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, however.

I'll forgive your ignorance.

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

 

Originally posted by mindspat

 

It always cracks me up to see someone use "realism" as an arguement agasint a game, not to mention a Fantasy Game at that!  Let me go get my spell book...

 

Oh wait, I forgot...D&D is real!  Hey, have you all just seen that hot Elf babe who works at the local cafe?  Her manager is a REAL Ogre!

sheesh. 

It reminds of being 8 years old and arguring who would win a fight, batman or spiderman.  And don't start, we all know Batman would kick Spidy's ass!

 

 

Yes, D&D is a fantasy game.  It's also a role-playing game, which means you actively attempt to emulate real life [in a fantasy setting].  That's why they call it a Fantasy Role-Playing Game (FRPG).  As a current fanboy of DDO, I can completely understand why you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, however.

I'll forgive your ignorance.

Why does him not agreeing with you make him ignorant? Being a close minded jerk sounds a bit more ignorant to me....

Anyways, FANTASY and REALITY are not one in the same. IRL I am not a halfling. IRL I do not dual wield Khopeshes. IRL I cannot in anyways run into a sewer and fight Kobolds, Ogres, Living Slimes, Skeletons, and/or any other such monster. IRL I cannot make money, or gain items by going on adventures.

The list could go on and on, and it would all eventually boil down to one thing; Real Life, and video games are two seperate things.

Originally posted by Burnthebed

 

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

 

Originally posted by mindspat

 

It always cracks me up to see someone use "realism" as an arguement agasint a game, not to mention a Fantasy Game at that!  Let me go get my spell book...

 

Oh wait, I forgot...D&D is real!  Hey, have you all just seen that hot Elf babe who works at the local cafe?  Her manager is a REAL Ogre!

sheesh. 

It reminds of being 8 years old and arguring who would win a fight, batman or spiderman.  And don't start, we all know Batman would kick Spidy's ass!

 

 

Yes, D&D is a fantasy game.  It's also a role-playing game, which means you actively attempt to emulate real life [in a fantasy setting].  That's why they call it a Fantasy Role-Playing Game (FRPG).  As a current fanboy of DDO, I can completely understand why you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, however.

I'll forgive your ignorance.

 

Why does him not agreeing with you make him ignorant? Being a close minded jerk sounds a bit more ignorant to me....

Anyways, FANTASY and REALITY are not one in the same. IRL I am not a halfling. IRL I do not dual wield Khopeshes. IRL I cannot in anyways run into a sewer and fight Kobolds, Ogres, Living Slimes, Skeletons, and/or any other such monster. IRL I cannot make money, or gain items by going on adventures.

The list could go on and on, and it would all eventually boil down to one thing; Real Life, and video games are two seperate things.

Technically speaking, other than the fantasy critters you list, you COULD do all of the above in real life.  There are people who make a living going on what one would consider 'adventures' every day :)  I personally have dual wielded weapons (tsai) and could easily kill things/people with them :)

Yes, it's a game, yes it's fantasy.  But even in the precepts that it is a game and it is fantasy there are certain concepts within the game that are maintained to maintain a sense of 'reality'.  That's what people are trying to point out.  Call it balance, call it realism, call it whatever you like.  Bottom line is there are certain game mechanics that are necessary to make gameplay flow properly and feel 'real' to people who are playing.    Like I said there are SOME things the OP pointed out that do irritate players but he is over-blowing the situation to an extreme.

Originally posted by Burnthebed

 

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

 

Originally posted by mindspat

 

It always cracks me up to see someone use "realism" as an arguement agasint a game, not to mention a Fantasy Game at that!  Let me go get my spell book...

 

Oh wait, I forgot...D&D is real!  Hey, have you all just seen that hot Elf babe who works at the local cafe?  Her manager is a REAL Ogre!

sheesh. 

It reminds of being 8 years old and arguring who would win a fight, batman or spiderman.  And don't start, we all know Batman would kick Spidy's ass!

 

 

Yes, D&D is a fantasy game.  It's also a role-playing game, which means you actively attempt to emulate real life [in a fantasy setting].  That's why they call it a Fantasy Role-Playing Game (FRPG).  As a current fanboy of DDO, I can completely understand why you don't have a clue what I'm talking about, however.

I'll forgive your ignorance.

 

Why does him not agreeing with you make him ignorant? Being a close minded jerk sounds a bit more ignorant to me....

Anyways, FANTASY and REALITY are not one in the same. IRL I am not a halfling. IRL I do not dual wield Khopeshes. IRL I cannot in anyways run into a sewer and fight Kobolds, Ogres, Living Slimes, Skeletons, and/or any other such monster. IRL I cannot make money, or gain items by going on adventures.

The list could go on and on, and it would all eventually boil down to one thing; Real Life, and video games are two seperate things.

I disagree..in real life you can do all these things. I find it easier when I stay off my Meds for 2-3 weeks at a time.

Man, I hate to make a comment in an ugly thread (as a rule I avoid them these days) but work is pretty slow, so here goes:

As a long time tabletop gamer of D&D (started in 1981 and have run every edition to date, usually weekly) I can safely say that DDO, while a fine game in its own right, is nothing more than a video game that happens to look, feel, and sometimes play a bit like its tabletop progenitor. Arguing that trip attacks in DDO should work like they do in the tabletop edition is nonsensical, and leads to a slippery argument that one should then ditch the achievement system, since they are not in the tabletop edition and unbalance play (actually they don't, since DDO is balanced for its higher level of play...sort of); all the excessive magic items in DDO which are essential to its play style should be dumped too, since they are not in D&D on the tabletop, either. The spell point system needs to go, too. And the real-time combat system needs to go, since D&D is a turn-based system, and the limiting factors on the tabletop that make the Trip Attack option work are based on the premise of a turn-based system and not a real-time free-for-all like is in DDO.

There, said it. OP may simply rephrase his post to: "They made changes to the video game I did not like. Now I hate it." and lets all move on.

BTW: In full disclosure, although I like DDO, I am not now playing it because of the lack of solo content from 5th level on. I am uber-casual, and do not have the time to focus on a game which demands grouping to have any hope of advancement. But I am not going to tell people this game sucks just because I have some personal preference that the game does not meet (although I keep my fingers crossed that DDO will one day get a big upgrade that makes the game as fun and soloable as, say, WoW....at least, for time-pressed people like myself).

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

Man, I hate to make a comment in an ugly thread (as a rule I avoid them these days) but work is pretty slow, so here goes:

As a long time tabletop gamer of D&D (started in 1981 and have run every edition to date, usually weekly) I can safely say that DDO, while a fine game in its own right, is nothing more than a video game that happens to look, feel, and sometimes play a bit like its tabletop progenitor. Arguing that trip attacks in DDO should work like they do in the tabletop edition is nonsensical, and leads to a slippery argument that one should then ditch the achievement system, since they are not in the tabletop edition and unbalance play (actually they don't, since DDO is balanced for its higher level of play...sort of); all the excessive magic items in DDO which are essential to its play style should be dumped too, since they are not in D&D on the tabletop, either. The spell point system needs to go, too. And the real-time combat system needs to go, since D&D is a turn-based system, and the limiting factors on the tabletop that make the Trip Attack option work are based on the premise of a turn-based system and not a real-time free-for-all like is in DDO.

There, said it. OP may simply rephrase his post to: "They made changes to the video game I did not like. Now I hate it." and lets all move on.

BTW: In full disclosure, although I like DDO, I am not now playing it because of the lack of solo content from 5th level on. I am uber-casual, and do not have the time to focus on a game which demands grouping to have any hope of advancement. But I am not going to tell people this game sucks just because I have some personal preference that the game does not meet (although I keep my fingers crossed that DDO will one day get a big upgrade that makes the game as fun and soloable as, say, WoW....at least, for time-pressed people like myself).

 

YOU WIN....PERFECT!!!

I could not have put that better myself. While I currently play DDO I totally see where you are coming from. I am also hard pressed for time, and a very casual player myself so I can see exactly what you mean. My highest character is lvl 11, but I barely play him because of time constraints. I mainly mess around with different alts and stuff. My girlfriend on the other hand...well she plays literally ALL DAY. She doesn't have a job and lives with her parents so she has nothing but time.

BAH SOMEONE NERF MY GIRLFRIEND'S PLAY TIME!

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor

 Yes, D&D is a fantasy game.  It's also a role-playing game, which means you actively attempt to emulate real life [in a fantasy setting].  That's why they call it a Fantasy Role-Playing Game (FRPG). 

Role-playing has nothing at all to do with "emulating real life".    You are simply playing the role of a character within the rule system the game has laid out. 

That game system can be mostly based in reality (e.g. Sims, Second Life) or not at all (e.g. D&D, WoW, SWG) or even anywhere in-between.

Originally posted by Riddikulus

 

Role-playing has nothing at all to do with "emulating real life".    You are simply playing the role of a character within the rule system the game has laid out. 

That game system can be mostly based in reality (e.g. Sims, Second Life) or not at all (e.g. D&D, WoW, SWG) or even anywhere in-between.

Roleplaying is nothing but emulating real life.  There is no way the PHB could inform players of every possible reaction they should take when confronted with a particular scenario, and it would make an extremely moronic game if it attempted to do so.  How many DMs have been surprised by real world tactics employed by players, and had to go along with it simply because it could happen [in real life]?

This forum is not the place for such a discussion, but one could effectively argue that all forms of play across all species worldwide are emulations of scenarios, problems, and procedures in real life.  Play, IMO, is quite uninteresting when it doesn't emulate something that could really happen or a problem that really needs solved.

Tiger cubs don't play tiddlywinks with each other.  They play cat and mouse.

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

BTW: In full disclosure, although I like DDO, I am not now playing it because of the lack of solo content from 5th level on. I am uber-casual, and do not have the time to focus on a game which demands grouping to have any hope of advancement. But I am not going to tell people this game sucks just because I have some personal preference that the game does not meet (although I keep my fingers crossed that DDO will one day get a big upgrade that makes the game as fun and soloable as, say, WoW....at least, for time-pressed people like myself).

 

As to the difficulty of soloing past 5th level - I hear ya!  What class are you?  I am currently at an impass in soloing Splinterskull - I can do the outer part with my eyes closed, but just can't quite get through to find/kill the shaman/summoner/warlock whatever he is.  I had made it to the point of clearing the two side rooms, but then jumped off a ledge and got stuck between the ledge and the wall; I was out of mana, but still had quite a few potions left :(

Another place [that I am now sick of, having done them 5-6 times each on normal] is the sewers in House Denieth.  The first two [Despair & Darkness, I believe] are easy on solo and ok on Normal; the last two are quite tough on Normal - due mainly to elementals ramping up from CR2-3 to CR5.

I'm pretty sure that there is an outdoor area, too, that is level 2-7 just off the Marketplace, but I can't recall the name atm [scorched something maybe?]  I haven't checked that out yet as I am obsessed with finishing Splinterskull right now :)

Any way - PM me your class/server and I'll give ya a hand if I can.  I play Saturday nights on Khyber, mostly with my 4 yr old nephew [who hasn't quite figured out that he needs to keep attacking once we start :)]  If there is any gear that we aren't using [i think I have some extra Int & Wis items], I could mail them to you...

I really could not make it through this thread due to the fact that its so insane, but.....I find it hilarious that the OP (or anyone for that matter) has a character that is all about tripping enemies rofl.... Is that called trip spec of something? I played D&D up to 2nd ed.( i don't know shat about 3rd ed +) Has the rule set fallen so low that this is a legitimate way to design a character? Or has Turbine lost their mind in their translation...

So I roll up on a lich king and my first move is to walk up and trip it? Is it possible to trip a mob to death? Rofl...  Who would have thought it was that easy all along.

Someone probably should have told this to Yoda.   All the man had to do was trip Emperor Palpatine and he could have ended the entire war!

Seriously WTF did you expect to get from Turbine?  They don't know anything about anything.   We are talking about a company that hasn't had an original idea since Asheron's Call.  They are piggybacking on your love for franchises like D&D and LOTRO trying to milk it for all its worth.

Originally posted by Paragus1

Seriously WTF did you expect to get from Turbine?  They don't know anything about anything.   We are talking about a company that hasn't had an original idea since Asheron's Call.  They are piggybacking on your love for franchises like D&D and LOTRO trying to milk it for all its worth.

 

Be it traps, puzzles, or environments which provide tactical advantages, I'd say DDO is extremely unique.  While it is heavily based upon the 3.5 rule system (I am only familar with 1.0) they have made acceptable changes to better influence gameplay. 

Were' seeing is that Turbine DOES in fact pay attention to their subscriber's opinions.  They give a good impression through development that the player's feedback are influencing design.  New areas and more soloable content are a few examples that are contiuosly being added and improved upon. 

Lately it's become an issue where difficulty checks (DC) were a little too inflated.  The recent publish notes show that Enhancements are being increased to reflect a more specialized role for rogues and paladins so the game play is inline with the character development. Apparently there were enough players commenting how that +1 stat buff from a Paladin aura or the +1 skil bonus for the rogue was not in sync with the currently inflated DC's; progresses at 2,4,6 bonuses rather then 1,2,3; example of rewritting rules to improve game play.

When it comes down to it, the DC's are inflated to enhance "pacing" of the game play experiance.  While it's not 100% accurate to the 3.5 rules (so I've heard) it does follow it closely enough to be recognizable by those who aren't nescasarily book junkies.