General Discussion

and neither is Age of Conan. Hell, neither of those games even qualifies as a third person shooter. In fact, they aren't even third person action games. Every time I hear someone refer to either of these games as an FPS, I just want to ask them what friggin' rock they've been hiding under for the last 15 years.

Let's begin with the basics. FPS stands for First Person Shooter. The part I want to focus on here is First Person. TR and AoC are both Third person, meaning that you are looking at your character, usually over the shoulder, rather than through the characters eyes. Here are some demonstrative screencaps to help clarify:

First person...

Third person...

Get it? Let's put this in more modern terms....

First person

Third Person

Next up is the Shooter part of the equation. Yes, you shoot a lot in TR. The Catch-22 here is that your aim has nothing to do with whether you hit or not. In fact, You have the option to use the traditional one click combat of every other MMORPG on the market. Even if you're not using one click combat and have your crosshairs over an enemy, the game still rolls to determine if you miss and applies variable damage when you  hit. In an actual FPS, you only hit when your projectile hits the target and it always does the same amount of damage to the target. Labeling TR as an MMOFPS is like calling FFVII a shooter because it has guns in it.

AoC doesn't really have you shooting anything. Yes, there are various bows and ranged spells, but the stress is still on melee with no ability to dodge ranged attacks... just like every other MMORPG out there. AoC only differs from one-click combat on a cosmetic level. The pace of the combat is exactly the same as WoW with the difference being that, instead of spamming hot buttons to pull off special abilities, you do button combos. Button combos, I might add, that the game walks you through. Street Fighter it ain't. Actually, it's not even Fable.

In conclusion, please stop calling TR and AoC FPS games. When you do, you just let everyone around you know how ignorant you are about games in general. Thank you.

If TR was built on any sort of FPS mechanic...it may have been good lol. To bad its just a smoothed out NGE.

Originally posted by Torak

If TR was built on any sort of FPS mechanic...it may have been good lol. To bad its just a smoothed out NGE.

It's funny because I really liked the combat system in TR while I absolutely hate it in the NGE.

Originally posted by smg77

Originally posted by Torak

If TR was built on any sort of FPS mechanic...it may have been good lol. To bad its just a smoothed out NGE.

It's funny because I really liked the combat system in TR while I absolutely hate it in the NGE.

The other thing with that was the NGE was a modification to a game mechanic that was in place for years. That caused the "vet revolt" that continues to this day. No matter what NGE does or becomes, some vets will always resent it. SWG still offers a lot that most mundane fantasy grinders can't even touch in terms of game features. Even TR is a basic shell in features when you compare the two.

In fact IMHO, TR is just a gawd awful MMORPG and they should have went closer to an online version of Enemy Territory or something like that instead of this wishy washy, linear, Third person, limited, PvE, level-loot based, pseudo shooter garbage they made. 

I have to aim like in an FPS thats all that is important to me. Due to technical problems it is IMPOSSIBLE in all these games to have Epic Battles like 200 vs 200 players. The lag is unbearable and the GPUs cant handle the moddel load at all. So it gets bumby. And because of the lag i cant even aim -> unplayable. Now some of you will say "but the hit calculations are done Server Side". THEN it is even worse and by far too easy to exploit. -> Aim bots in an mmo (i decline to add rpg for all these games) -> No thanks. For me an mmorpg is a change of pace and i HATE this recent develpment to mix up FPS and MMORPG they dont belong together in the first place. In an MMORPG my own physical skills are quite unimportant. In an FPS my Hand eye coordination is everything. The main goal in an FPS is action the main goal in an MMORPG is communication. I cant aim, shoot, walk, jump, use skills AND chat. Since the communication part should be important in an MMORPG this just doesnt work out here and it never will - at least not for me. 

As you may have noticed i am a hardcore roleplayer. Yes i am one of this kind and i think we will be extinct soon. Since all of these kiddys these days only carve for action. But thats how its goes. 

As soon as i have to aim via mouse over in a game it is action based. Action based and MMORPG doesnt match up - My oppinion.

Maybe calling AoC and TR FPS is really much to much but you know what ? - They arent MMORPGs at all. Thats what i am very sure of at least.

Sincerly Yours

Sioned

Originally posted by Sioned

I have to aim like in an FPS thats all that is important to me. Due to technical problems it is IMPOSSIBLE in all these games to have Epic Battles like 200 vs 200 players. The lag is unbearable and the GPUs cant handle the moddel load at all. So it gets bumby. And because of the lag i cant even aim -> unplayable. Now some of you will say "but the hit calculations are done Server Side". THEN it is even worse and by far too easy to exploit. -> Aim bots in an mmo (i decline to add rpg for all these games) -> No thanks.

Ok, this might be true to some extent, but the technic is and will improve futher, and technical problems are there to be solved. And look at Planetside, how old is it? I think nowadays it could be even better and with even less of a technical problem.

For me an mmorpg is a change of pace and i HATE this recent develpment to mix up FPS and MMORPG they dont belong together in the first place.

Really? What is with Ultima Underworld 1&2.. the first real free FPGames. Even some friends of mine refer Deus Ex, System Shock much more as Roleplaying Games and not Shooters. So RPG and FPSish combat are not mutual exclusive.

In an MMORPG my own physical skills are quite unimportant. In an FPS my Hand eye coordination is everything. The main goal in an FPS is action the main goal in an MMORPG is communication. I cant aim, shoot, walk, jump, use skills AND chat. Since the communication part should be important in an MMORPG this just doesnt work out here and it never will - at least not for me. 

Since when can you chat and really fight in a mmorpg? It isnt possible there, too. Yeah, you can fight against an easy enemey and chat a little bit, but if it get a little bit more challenging you cant.

You chat after a fight about the fight or anything else, you chat during some pauses or in a lot of other situation, but not in an involving fight. So no, this isnt a real reason.

And ok, there are some games without any need of player skill, and some with need of player skills, and i guess there is room for both. But to be honest, i like a challenging experience, and if something is challenging player skill is involved.

As you may have noticed i am a hardcore roleplayer. Yes i am one of this kind and i think we will be extinct soon. Since all of these kiddys these days only carve for action. But thats how its goes. 

This kind of combat has nothing to do how much a game is just for the fight, or offers a lot of other options, because this is just the fighing mechanismn, but there is no reason to just fight, because there is a good fighting mechanism,  you can do all the other stuff to, like crafting, trading, exploring, socializing and what not.. that has nothing to do with some kind of combat mechanismn.

Hell, even in Deus EX i played some levels without to fire my weapon even one time, it depends not with the combat system how you make a game, or what gameplay options you offer, it is after all just the combat mechanism, and so it is just part of the combat but not the game/world as a whole.

As soon as i have to aim via mouse over in a game it is action based. Action based and MMORPG doesnt match up - My oppinion.

Well, and i accept it, there will always different oppinions for different things, and there will always both kinds of games, and combat mechanism. So no problem with it.. i have just a problem that you ultimativly divided RPG with FPS combat elements, where no cutting line is.

Maybe calling AoC and TR FPS is really much to much but you know what ? - They arent MMORPGs at all. Thats what i am very sure of at least.

Sincerly Yours

Sioned

To the OP, yeap i agree both those games are not in the nearest FPSish, and we can only wait when someday a MMORPG with good FPSish combat mechanismn appears. I will wait for it, before i think it will make the combat more challenging and even more involving and immersive, like in the good old days of Ultima Underworld.

Originally posted by Sioned
....

Sioned I have to disagree. FPS and MMO can go well together (Hell the first RPGs were FPSs). It just has to be done right and so far noone has tried to do it properly because everyone is following the "no-skill" principle. They want to eliminate player capabilites so that even 10 year olds can kill the final boss or you in pvp.

Communication:

Have you ever played a teambased FPS? The players are constantly talking via a voice chat tool. At times you even have to tell everyone to quiet down because the information flow is getting too high. A team that does not communicate WILL lose. Tbh: MMOs rather do not have a need for communication. Talking when nothing is going on is possible in every game. But is there really a need to talk in MMO battles? The combat has been dumbed down so far that everyone knows what to do, even your common 10 year old.  This is true especially when your char is limited in options. A tank is a tank. No variation. No need for alterations.

FPS are just hand/eye coordination:

I disagree. People think FPSs are all about aiming and response time but there is a tactical aspect as well. Positioning, teamplay, tactics, knowledge and fast decision making are important and you would lose if you are bad at them even with superior aim and response time. Even down to earth team-deathmatch games are not just chaotically running around fragging everything. There are roles, routes and areas. Players are designated a role and an area or route. The designations have to fit together creating an overall strategy. The players have to time their movement based on the positions of their fellow teammates. The next thing is a constant need for adaption. Changing designations and overall strategy on the fly is important. Id say the tactical component in FPS games is way higher than in MMOs.

Roleplaying:

If you are thinking that MMOFPSs are bad for roleplaying: consider that a first person view can be very immersive. When you craft an item you see your hands in front of you building the object. If you look down you see your body and feet. You do not have eyes behind you. You suddenly have dead points. Hostile NPCs can sneak up on you from behind. You may not see the shadow on the ground from a falling rock. You cannot look around corners. Dark complex dungeons become so much more immersive if you do not see the whole 20m circle around you but just a fixed 90 degree angle.

Overall I'd say that most players just want an interactive fantasy movie where success is garanteed. They do not want variation or hard battles just success. The play/stop button would be the autoattack button. You advance in the movie when you auto attack the next hostile NPC. The outcome of the fight is determined simply by the stats of your char. There is no room for truely random and challeinging combat. You either win or lose based on your char statistics and you cannot change the outcome. The game is built up in a way that if you follow a specific line you will get to the end without losses and the need for any "skill". Classic MMORPGs are for them.

Others want to get more involved and actively shape the outcome of the gaming experience. Imagine chess players with a fixed amount of time per move. Imagine a sports player who wants to win in a match versus another team based on his own capabilities. They want to win because they themselves have come up with a good strategy and not because their character has superior stats. In this case MMOFPSs may serve them well. Unluckily these players are a minority and are being ignored.

I underst