General Discussion

This is your typical PvP event when you give PvP toddlers cheap PK scrolls to turn a city into a PK zone. First thing you'll notice is my little plant carrier isn't AFK. Second, he's working in the city and unloading to the warehouse. Third, he has no weapon (15lbs of weight a carrier and non PvP player in a city never needs).

See PK scrolls in this game offers turns anyone into PvP targets. Not even newbie cities are immuned -- no 0.5 space here, it's PvP without any safety net.

The PvP player, in his store bought anime clown suit and Phase 3 falchion skills, proceeded to kill not just my carrier -- everyone -- FROM BEHIND like the cowards they are!

Now read the typical commentary of such PvP brats, and why responsible games have to put them behind some fence like cattle, before they lose customers (Voyage Century lost my business immediately after this [over $450 worth they'll never see again])...

The only thing I can say is this: PVP has yet to be properly setup in any MMO thus far. What I mean by that is the given situations where PVP follows in other genres and titles tend to be due to mechanisms they setup for it. Whether it's an RTS or an FPS, these sorts of games work well under PVP, and pretty much make it fun as the majority of cases the AI in such games can only go so far as to provide challenge beyond simply buffing the bots with insane stats/ratings. In any case, for MMOs PVP is something far more volatile in its nature. First, you have people taking on other people in such a manner that is indiscriminant. Death simply comes too often, but more so in cases where it makes little sense (like just sitting in the middle of a crowd in town). Second, it's often one sided where the one who gets the first hit wins (always). With these two factors as they are with regard to PVP in MMOs it's little wonder why folks hate PVP in MMOs yet love it in other games (like TF2, COD4, SC, CnC3, DoW, and etc). But again, I'm emphasizing the fact it's a matter of proper implementation and not one of some magical genre barrier (as it is often espoused). Once developers get a grasp of the factors that makes PVP in other titles fun, they may be on the road to making it fun in MMOs too (Maybe...).

-- Brede

I agree. I play the FPS games, and heck you'll die in some w-e-i-r-d ways. Dying isn't even the issue, as that genre if you're breathing you're a target! 

The issue with MMOs is, unlike FPS games, they have things like drops of  your own goods and loss of XP or other penalties. A FPS game could not be about killing everything in your path if your character will face such punishment -- because it's difficult to obtain the uber weapons until you play through a FPS SP or with games like BF2/BF2142, play long enough to unlock the uber weapons that's needed to survive.

In FPS games armor isn't the main attraction, the weapons are (why they spend god zillion days talking and modding new weapons). In MMOs, armor is about all you need, because tanking is the norm for their version of a fighter. If you tank, you can survive an PvP assault from other tankers.

What makes PvP so ugly though is that in FPS games there's more balance (they spend forever trying to tweak the weapons fire rates, projectile drops and hit boxes). A buck private can, with skill, take down a high ranked player with 6+ months play time and the best weapons, with even a knife. The game rewards skill, no matter if it's a n00b or not. In MMOs, anyone with a credit card or can exploit the game for ingame gold and/or XP, can buy that armor that will protect them from that n00b. You can see them laugh at the n00b trying to dice them with their low level sword that maybe, takes out 1 or 2 HPs, even.

It wouldn't be tolerated in a FPS, and frankly I don't believe even in a MMO, when it's this out of balance.

It's also why I see the worst trash talkers in gaming in this genre. They, these n00bs (yes they are since they don't need any skill but a good layout for their 10001 spells to spam) know they can't be taken down by a new player. They're not vulnerable.

I remember in BF2142 and the RDX bunnies thought they'll have easy prey on a non-friendly fire server with little rules. Got tired of our team being pinned down by these bunnies, and my death ratio going up. So I unlocked the Sniper tree, and got access to their tools. I was a total and absolute n00b to blowing things up with explosives, but within a week, I even RDXed couple of the top 20 RDX hoppers in the game and even took their dogtags.

Dogtags in that game is the epic armor, as it takes utter skill to knife a guy with a shotgun or RDX in your face or at your feet!

That's skill, and that openess to that you can take even the top players down as a low level player, makes things so much more tolerable and enjoyable.

PvP/PK in MMOs aren't fun. Not only can you lose items that you worked for a long time to get, you can lose them because some brat (ALWAYS in better armor than you) can do so because there's no penalty on them. In BF2142, the penalty for any top gunner if they error in their skills, is some buck private getting their dogtag.

Now tell me, the odds of a level 1 player in MMOs killing a level 120 PvP tanker?

No community can expect to function in pure lawlessness. What would do you in real life if you were a target everytime you stepped out of your house to goto work? Probably move, or in this case unsub.

Killing a citizen in broad day light should have some consequences and criminals should have to think twice before doing what they please.

I'm a pvp'er, I love pvp, but the carebears have a point. There are 2 types of pvp'ers, those who like a challenge and take pleasure in their victories - sportsmen , and those who don't like any challenge and take pleasure in other peoples pain - griefers/criminals. Theres a difference.

solution: police

Since most games dont require you to build cities and all its infrastructure, its alraedy made when you sign up it should also be assumed that police would also already exist when you sign up. Otherwise how did that city or community ever come to being without some sort of protection right? Police should be in every mmo where pve and pvp butt heads. Its why Eve works.

But PvP, as it stands in MMOs, is pure lawlessness.

In that game Voyage Century, any city guild owner (as you can see in the text) could buy a very cheap scroll to make the whole city and even port a PK zone. In the game if you don't max out combat skills, you can't play PvP nor another PvP player can harm you. But with those scrolls, everyone is a target, with low level players with zero protection against level 100+ PvPers.

It was abused in newbie cities before, and the above shows how it's being abused yet again. The company doesn't care, and lets this free-for-all continue. About all what's left in that game are silver sellers on eBay, and folks willing to put in $$$ a month on upping their weapon and armor stats with item mall refiners -- and do the above when bored.

Devs wouldn't have police in the cities, because part of the MMO problem IS the Devs themselves. Either they love PvP or they don't, and the schizophrenic nature of MMOs with PvP/PK enabled shows it. Those that allow open PvP love the concept, and the result is their subscriptions or accounts are v-e-r-y small. But the devs lived their dream in bringing FPS content without the vulnerabilities that wimps prefer.

I just love how they claim PvE players are "carebears", because these PvPers don't have any consequences when they get their epics. No low level players or even beasts can kill them. They're tanked wimps.

Games that don't offer PvP are as rare as a MUD that doesn't enforce roleplay. They give these kids something to play with, because if they don't get their way they pout, meanwhile the PvE players go find yet another game, as PvP ruins THEIR gameplay (and you notice, these PvPers don't care if they ruin anyone but their gameplay [then they proceed crying about finally being more vulnerable?]).

The problem with pvp is not everyone likes pvp or some people want different things.

Lets put it this way if you did not like daoc pvp you'll not like any pvp.

Originally posted by Jetrpg

The problem with pvp is not everyone likes pvp or some people want different things.

Lets put it this way if you did not like daoc pvp you'll not like any pvp.

PvP is really no different than a FPS way of fighting. The problem in MMOs is when you get epics, as you no longer are vulnerable to anyone below your level. Which causes the abuses mentioned.

In FPS games you're always vulnerable. No weapon or vehicle makes you immuned.

If devs introduce vulnerabilities in PvP players (like what happens even in RL with Special Forces encountering cave dwellers), then PvP wouldn't be such a bother. Even Newbie can have a crack at some n-i-c-e armor, and not grinding 6 months for it! 

PvP players will cry like a newborn baby if that was possible, but PvP will finally be balanced. Frankly, they need the same fear as n00bs, fearing n00b in the shadows running up and tagging them, then walking away with prized armor and weapon(s), and bragging rights of the most humiliating defeat that'll be spammed all over MMOland.

Vulnerabilites, guys, vulnerabilities.

I love open-world PVP (and player-killing) in a game, when it's done right and it can be.

Games such as old-UO and EVE had the best open-world PVP; you can kill anyone anywhere (which adds realism) but if you do so unprovoked then you suffer consequences (which adds more realism) such as becoming a murderer in UO; making you kill-on-sight for anyone and unable to enter towns for fear of NPC guards attacking you.

Likewise in EVE if you attack someone in secure space you will be attacked by guards and your security rating will go down eventually making you unable to even travel through secure space. Additionally, your victims will be able to put a bounty on you that anyone can collect by killing you, so you have to be careful to avoid retribution.

I also don't like the concept of guild-war; it doesn't seem realistic that two members of opposing gangs can kill one another in towns under the nose of the police without repercussions.

Sorry, that got a bit preachy, but tbh the game you're talking about just looks like a really crap game.