Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol. :)

I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/  <~~ is the site.

Look, I'm a prime example.  I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay.  I know it because I also know that he made me this way.  Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth.  When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life.  Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.

I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God.  You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

This is a fascinating question, and of course very hard to answer due to humans being a very complex animal. Humans are a social species, the abstract of identity goes hand in hand with communication. Nothing can develop a sense of identity if there is no others to have reference with. The social interaction is also a comforting structure, I am ok because there are others, daily small talk is very similar to social grooming, "how are you today? good thanks and you?" it is about recognizing and reaffirming us as individuals, that individuality maters and that through social interaction we can achieve things we cannot do alone. There was a very nice example of this behavioral issue given in “I am Legend”

Storytelling is an extension of the abstraction of identity. It is also an intrinsic part of scientific endeavor. Scientific method is used to affirm or disprove a scientific hypothesis, or previously described observations, both of which are 'only' stories.

In having an identity we start to ask certain questions like, "Do I ever stop being? Where is my child who has been killed in an auto incident?".  These are difficult questions, very upsetting, the necessity of self preservation is clearly a good evolutionary trait, as is the protection of our genetic material. It is important that we care about the preservation of our own existence and that of our children for the propagation of the species. The anxiety, fear and distress are important biochemical processes we experience to reinforce our behavior. However through our social environment we can be comforted through the distress and continue to assist in the species survival. "It’s OK, you and your child go to a better place. You will be reunited in the future. No, there is no evidence this happen but you can have faith and be comforted that this is the truth. Here is a very large collection of stories that other people also have faith in, you can join them and be comforted."

Evolutionarily the storytelling process of religion is helpful to sustain us and make us succeed as a species.

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful. Initially this seems like a very good evolutionary rule to have, you produce offspring so the species is sustained. However, through education you can produce more food through modern farming techniques and technologies, so if you invest more education in fewer children, the species may benefit more. Then there is the spread of STDs to consider, does "though shall not use a condom" preserve our species or the AIDS virus?

Moral rules have to be dynamic in order to address the changing issues our species faces.

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us?

They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them.

Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain.

Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.

 

 

I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?

Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.

 

You were bashing religion.

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

good stuff, but did this hypothetical sun worshiping cave man have fire? or spears, baskets, fishing nets, clothing, furs or any technology?

what about the technology of language? to tell his stories of what the sun is and that it deserves worship. The abilty to teach that language?

science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

"What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other?"

religeon is an act of faith, so religeon will tell you whatever it is that the specific dogma you follow is what you should believe about science. it will also give some moral value as to why you should believe that. your above question shows some of this by implying that one is of greater value by which is 'nothing more than' a subset of the other, so which came first or which is better, superior.

Science is as i said a tool, so anything science tells us about religeon is something we can use as a technology. it does not say which is better though.

lets take a hypothetical example, if we found out why cults exist and how to manipulate them, we could either prevent and break down death cults or create more (kool aid anyone?).

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us?

They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them.

Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain.

Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.

 

 

I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?

Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.

 

You were bashing religion.

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.

So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

BTW, priests, celibacy.

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

Religion is a tool too.

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

Originally posted by upallnight

 

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol. :)

I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/  <~~ is the site.

I disagree with that.  I'm not looking at the contradictions as a way of not believing in God.  I'm looking at them as proof that man has taken God's love for all of us and tried to mess it all up.

 

Look, I'm a prime example.  I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay.  I know it because I also know that he made me this way.  Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth.  When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life.  Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.

I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God.  You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.

all of this is with love not hate or bashing.... I know you may feel offended but i would rather have a brother tell me he disagrees then a enemy.... I am your brother in Christ. much love!

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us?

They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them.

Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain.

Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.

 

 

I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?

Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.

 

You were bashing religion.

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

 

Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.

So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

The questions I asked were very sincere. I wont apologize if someone does not like them. Because honestly they should be addressed before taking this debate further. You are right, religion is a tool as is science. Its a big high-five for being programmed. My questions in the above post still stand.

Originally posted by porgie

 

Originally posted by Draenor

 

Originally posted by porgie

I recently converted to Christianity.  I'm proud of my decision.  However, I don't think that anyone who is a conventional evangelical Christian would find they agree with me on too much.

I find it relatively easy to question items in the Bible that is of widespread use in most of the evangelical churches.  I know there are a some slight variations in that Bible even.  But I find it sad to hear people quote it as if it is absolute fact without question.

Even amongst the folks who have studied the ancient languages there is disagreement to some extent or another on what the translations are.  And even amongst those folks there are some scriptures where they almost unanimously disagree on what evangelicals use as translations.

The reason that I am prompted to write this is actually two reasons.  The motivation first off was a show that I was just watching about Jesus.  In it they were talking about Judas.  Judas has long been thought of in evangelical circles as the betrayer of Jesus.  But he wasn't.  They had a Greek language scholar say that those are mistranslations.  He even said it with a chuckle in his voice leading me to believe he was laughing at how crazy it all is.  He said those Greek passages say that Judas was simply the one that handed him over, not took money as betrayal.  In other words, Jesus told him to go to the high priests and turn him in.  He told him to because Judas was the one disciple he called his "friend" and that he trusted enough to perform the task.

Now, here's my other motivation.  I wonder if anyone who is an evangelical ever considers what they are doing?  If this is a mistranslation, then why aren't you guys able to question this and other mistranslations and have it fixed?  Why?  Is it because tradition is too strong a factor?  Or is it because if you question one mistranslation then the house of cards might come tumbling down?

I would think that people would want the truth to be told.  But then again, I have seen all too often where the truth has been hidden.

Also, the church I attend welcomes, even encourages, questions like this.  Our preacher will stand up and profess anything found by one of us to the whole during a sermon.  It's not hidden, it's opened.  Is this the case in your church?  Or does that King James version of the Bible just keep on trucking along no matter?

Background on my education:  Everyone at my school recieves a minor in Bible and theology, and some of my teachers are world renowned historians and archaologists who have appeared on various news programs.

 

Now, that said, The whole Judas thing is a farce.  Especially if you're talking about the gospel of Judas, which was written hundreds of years after the canon was finalized by a group of people known as the gnostics, I'll let you do your own research on them.

As far as the translation itself, all four gospels paint  a picture of Judas that is very negative, and John's gospel even says that he stole from the funds of the disciples...Now I don't speak ancient Greek, nor do I have any of my teachers sitting next to me right now (that would be quite creepy) but I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe that Bible scholars throughout time have simply ignored glaring mistranslations that Judas was actually Jesus' only real friend, and would instead paint a picture of him as a betrayer.  All that said, I would like to see the sources for the claims made by the documentary that you referenced, if they seem at all valid I'll gladly cross reference them with some of my teachers when I get back from Spring Break. 

As far as the translations used by most evangelical churches, you will find very few modern evangelical churches who use a King James translation.  Most of them use NIV, NASB, or even an NL...The King James is actually the preferred Bible of the mormon church due to its many flaws in translations (makes it easier to distort the meaning to fit with their beliefs about who Jesus is).

All I can ask then, is how come none of your teachers were asked to be on the show?  I'm not so naive to think that every documentary on television is one full of the most knowledgeable of experts, but they had a slew of people on there saying the same thing.  And these were not theologians, but experts of the ancient Greek language.  In other words, they had no bone to pick other than the mistranslation.  I am much more inclined to believe what they say.  Especially since they have studied other Greek documents even outside of religious texts and seen that word used in that same manner meaning "to hand over".

 

My preacher at my church tells us all the time that there are some old people in the church who don't want to let go.  They profess to be experts but all they are are experts at keeping their jobs and at not looking for new knowledge.  I think as more of these people fall off then things are changing.  You can see it around you everywhere.  People are beginning to question conventional texts, and I'm glad.  I don't want to follow the wrong teachings.  I want the questions to come up because I want the strong debate.

It doesn't worry me if a text in the Bible is found to be mistranslated.  What does worry me is if it is not changed.  This sticking to tradition formula freaks me out.  To me, it's a sign that the leaders at the top don't want to let go of the stranglehold they have and the people at the bottom have become complacent.  I don't think that's what Jesus would want from us.  I think he wants us to seek his truth.

Oh, and that wasn't about the gospels of Judas.  It was about the mistranslation of that word that is in today's Bible.  I did a quick search and found something that explains it better than I maybe am.  I hate quoting stuff from the Internet, so don't hold this against me.  It seems so cheap as to these forums lately. 

Judas is accused of “betraying” Jesus. Yet the Greek word paradidomi has another, less pejorative meaning: to “hand over” or “surrender”. Here I call as defence witness Professor William Klassen, a Canadian scholar at the École Biblique in Jerusalem. Klassen points out that the word paradidomi is used 59 times in connection with Christ’s death: 27 times it is translated as “hand over”; but on the 32 occasions the word is used in relation to Judas, it becomes “betray”. Biased translators deliberately bolstered preconceived assumptions.

Now, what's really funny is I decided to look the word up for my own translation.  Here's what I found.  Notice that it has the definition as hand over, but then when you get down to the translation in the Bible they actually in their own way admit that it was wrong by posting the translations that are in the Bible!!!!!!!!

Paradidomi - The New Testament Greek Lexicon

I heard a theory that some people have about Judas.  it states that Judas only betrayed Jesus because he wanted Jesus to tell the people that he was the messiah.  Proof= When the High Priest paid Judas, he threw the 30 pieces of silver in the face of the High Priest.  Also Judas is said to of broke down and wept after the death verdict was announced.  He also hung himself and I wouldn't be suprised if Judas asked for Gods forgiviness, and God does kind of have an extensive history of forgiving.

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by Umbrood

 

As to the bible, or any ancient text of religion created to "guide" us?

They are ultimate tools of power for those who wield them.

Nothing more, nothing less, and they will be used like that until the day humanity rids itself of its greatest ball and chain.

Religion is like communism, a great idea on paper but utterly horrible as soon as you involve real people.

 

 

I bet you believe in the merits of science, right?

Not sure I understand the question, but yes I believe in science, if I can understand it.

 

You were bashing religion.

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

 

Don't evade the question by asking one of your own. A very childish question yours is, btw. Scientific method is very new to religion.

So PLEASE look up what science tells us about religion. Maybe it'll make you stop your pointless religion bashing.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by xpowderx

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

The question really should say "What does religion tell us about science? Which came first, which is nothing more than a break off of the other? I want to know about those Sun worshiping cave men who were mad scientist's!! Really I do!! While these questions may look credible due to our current ideology, education and moral value. In part the question is quite biased. Science would not even look at that question unless it is only for the present.

 

While this question may be valid at this moment in time. It really does not have much credibility historically. My hope is those who post , post carefully thought out answers.

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

Mad Ace, first and foremost i am not bashing religion, nor am I science. Those members who know me know i am a pro-advocate for I.D and Quantum Physics. As to personal opinion(thats my comment is childish) , you should perhaps fully read and interpret what was said in my opinion. I notice you seem offended whenever a question arise for or against religion. You searching for something??

 

The questions I asked were very sincere. I wont apologize if someone does not like them. Because honestly they should be addressed before taking this debate further. You are right, religion is a tool as is science. Its a big high-five for being programmed. My questions in the above post still stand.

 

I never said you were bashing science. Maybe you're applying it in a biased way tho.

If I'm not mistaken you called religion "mankind's greatest ball and chain". Not a very scientific conclusion.

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

 

i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do.

Perhaps you should compare the first part of your post to where it led you in the end. Is it unreasonable to think that the disciples endured what befell them simply because it was their desire to be close to god and their unwavering belief that Jesus was son of god?

I'm not going to debate whether homosexuality is a choice or not (I don't believe it is, for the record), but so what if it is? Why should I care what someone else chooses to do with their life? Unlike your comparisons of murder and pedophilia, nobody was harmed in the homosexual act. So why are you so threatened by it? You still have every opportunity to find what makes you happy in life.

if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up.

People deal with alienation, bigotry and even torture every day becasue of their religion, sexual orientation, gender, race, class, etc. How does this differ from what Jesus and the disciples endured for their beliefs? Do you think you have anything in common with Pontius Pilate?

Being an agnostic, I have no opinions one way or the other. I spend a lot of time adding questions to a list that never gets anything checked off. I, like you, find it very hard to believe that a person would endure such torture and ultimately gruesome death for a position they didn't consider as fact. To me, this is not unlike soldiers who fight for their country or citizens who fight for racial equality or even same sex marriage. I think it's high time we stopped all the fear of people's differences and learned to embrace them. After all, that's what Jesus would have done, right?

For an interesting take on religion and politics Click the link in my sig area, watch the movie, sure it may seem low grade but... If you do some research of your own, youll find that what is being shown to you, is factual and proven from research you can find anywhere on the net or in your local library.

I WARN YOU, some parts of the documentary are shocking and can be disterbing to those that  have placed everything into their personal invisible man and messenger.

If you veiw the movie and come to a point  in your mind were you tell your self this movies bullcrap, then i challenge you to look up the parts you feel are crap. You will find the info is valid.

Veiw the documentary with an open mind and enjoy.

I personally was shocked.

The documentary is modern, and deals with religion, the American dollar, the Bushes, the north American Alliance that bush ninja signed us up for, 911 and building 7...

Enjoy, the movie link is hosted by the movie makers them selves and have a few different formats to choose from.

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

 

Originally posted by upallnight

 

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol. :)

I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/  <~~ is the site.

I disagree with that.  I'm not looking at the contradictions as a way of not believing in God.  I'm looking at them as proof that man has taken God's love for all of us and tried to mess it all up.

 

Look, I'm a prime example.  I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay.  I know it because I also know that he made me this way.  Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth.  When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life.  Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.

I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God.  You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.

i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do. Its also a preference i perfer a latina over a white or black girl any day. God made me dislike white girls...no he gave me the ability to choose and i feel more attractive to those types. I know you feel that its right to be gay  even society makes you think that as well. I'm not going to bash anyone for being gay i just disagree with there choice,there lifestyle....just as i disagree with someone who rapes, kills, or molests. I know your thinking im putting you in a category with half of the people in prison....im not im just simply showing examples of who i disagree with.  I'm not perfect im a sinner just like everyone else.....you would disagree with me and my lifestyle, but its really about this.....if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up. I cant prove God exist to you just as you cant prove if the apple im eating tastes sweet or sour.  Experience is what i have, i've experience God in my life. No one can tell me any difference because not only have I seen it but others around have seen a krazy, depressed, guy gone from hating every1 to loving everyone. If there was no God then how does someone change in the blink of an eye just by praying to the wind? I know all of this doesnt really relate to what you said ...im just rambling...lol  God Bless you and keep you safe.

 

all of this is with love not hate or bashing.... I know you may feel offended but i would rather have a brother tell me he disagrees then a enemy.... I am your brother in Christ. much love!

You don't understand me any more than I understand how a man who is straight can fall in love with a woman.  I am not in lust with my long time partner, we are in love.  The only differences are these.  You fit into the majority, there has been a tradition of relating homosexuality as an excused target for judgment, and this is all amplified by today's interpretations of religious doctrines and the heated political climate.

I remember seeing this picture once of how a human would look if the areas of the body where he had more sensory nerves were blown up in proportion.  It is a humorous picture, the guy has humongous hands, and cranial features.  Here it is...

This picture seem analogous to how society today treats homosexuals.  We are a minority of folks who mostly just want to be left alone and be treated equally.  However, society blows its reaction to us out of proportion.  They say we are a threat (which they never logically seem to be able to explain or show proof of) that is so horrible that you would think we are out in the streets murdering babies and stealing old people's retirement funds.  It's hysterical behavior over something that really makes no difference whatsoever in people's lives other than ours.  Why else would this ludicrous argument be made that we are a threat to marriage?

If people have such a problem with us, then I'm inclined to think that the problem isn't really with homosexuals but with something deep inside of themselves.  Sexuality is a complicated thing, and I think some people just haven't come to term with their own needs in life.  If you've ever seen the movie Brokeback Mountain, then you would know what I mean by saying that.

I have a question for you as well.  If you feel that we are supposed to live a life that is popularized by modern Bible interpretations, then what exactly do you think we homosexuals are supposed to do?  Should we marry a woman and lie to her by saying we love her?  I could never love a woman, only a man.  Should I do this because you say that it says that I am supposed to in the Bible?  If that's the case, then would I not be breaking one of God's Ten Commandment's brought down by Moses?  Thou shall not be bear false witness.  I don't believe in lying or being deceitful.  That's exactly what I would be doing to a woman if I did that.  It would not be fair to her, myself, or any children we might have.

That shows how illogical and crazy those interpretations are.  They are incorrect and need to be questioned.  I know it's going to take a long time for them to be corrected, but at least someday people may quit damning us in life and instead let us be blessed as God has.  You have no idea how bad the scorn we go through hurts and damages a person.  It's a reaction that drives a lot of us away from God.  If that's the case, then how could God approve of societies behavior?  Even the worse criminal is told he has a chance at redemption.  Yet, we are told that is not the case.  In a lot of peoples eyes we are worse than those criminals.

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

any interpretation of a religeous statement is supported by faith. you can say my interpretation is skewed due to your faith but i can have faith that my interpretation is true. tbh i was using monty python's "every sperm is sacred" song as a reference fo that example.

Reigeon is indead a tool, unfortionately an inconsistant and unreliable one. For example miracles are unrepeatable.

I think the view that "scientific reason can give a moral compass" is terribly flawed and the misunderstanding that  causes of most Religion vs Science debate.

Science gives us ways and means to act with some resonable expectation of outcome, it is then people that use their own morality to judge which action is good or bad. Forensic science will tell us what kind of knife you used to kill your wife, but it will not tell us whether or not it was a good thing to do. It may then suggest a better, more efficient knife to use in the future.

if you have some examples of where you think scientific reason can give a moral compass i would be interested.

Originally posted by nurgles

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

 

any interpretation of a religeous statement is supported by faith. you can say my interpretation is skewed due to your faith but i can have faith that my interpretation is true. tbh i was using monty python's "every sperm is sacred" song as a reference fo that example.

Reigeon is indead a tool, unfortionately an inconsistant and unreliable one. For example miracles are unrepeatable.

I think the view that "scientific reason can give a moral compass" is terribly flawed and the misunderstanding that  causes of most Religion vs Science debate.

Science gives us ways and means to act with some resonable expectation of outcome, it is then people that use their own morality to judge which action is good or bad. Forensic science will tell us what kind of knife you used to kill your wife, but it will not tell us whether or not it was a good thing to do. It may then suggest a better, more efficient knife to use in the future.

if you have some examples of where you think scientific reason can give a moral compass i would be interested.

Religion is a tool. A very adjustable tool. So if it's inconsistent and "unreliable" (?) then it needs to be adjusted.

Scientific reason can give us a moral compass. Doersn't matter whether or not this truth makes you feel uncomfortable. We need a moral compass to achieve a certain goal in society. One goal can be to achieve a militaristic society (Sparta where it's acceptable to kill babies if they don't live up to certain standards.

Religion VS Science debates are held by people who understand neither sufficiently to form an pinion about them.

Examples: Anything.

Set a goal and scientific reason will give you the most efficient way to achieve it.

And this gives certain basic rules in almost any society. Like "don't kill". A loss of life is a loss of investment for society.

And so on and on.

In fact, our moral compass isn't randomly made up. There are reasons why we judge certain things to be morally unacceptable.

Originally posted by MadAce

Examples: Anything.

Set a goal and scientific reason will give you the most efficient way to achieve it.

I do not deny that there are reasons we judge certain things to be morally unaceptable, but i do deny that science yields those reasons. Science can be used to support a morality (or an immorality), but it does not create the moral structure.

lets take "don't kill", the morality that you are pushing there is one of pacifism. In conflict you could use non-lethal force also as you are using non-lethal force you could allow a greater level of collateral. So lets use an IR laser to permanantly burn the retinas out of any enemies leaving millions of combatants and non-combatants permanantely blind.Is it then morally acceptable to make children blind for the sake of a 'don't kill' morality.

through science you can acheive the goal, but the goal has to be judged by people first. Science can offer predictions to the outcomes of an action through modelling and understanding the current situation, but it can not say that blinding millions is worse or better than killing thousands.You may be able to calculate a cost to society (looking after blind people is expensive), but again the society has the oportunty to judge it as a cost worth paying to retain their moral value (killing peole is bad).

oh, and it doesn't make me uncomfortable to think that science could yield morality, i just don't understand how it could.  It's like saying "my kitchen knife told me to to kill people" or "my hammer is telling me to build houses not bash peoples skulls in".

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

 

any interpretation of a religeous statement is supported by faith. you can say my interpretation is skewed due to your faith but i can have faith that my interpretation is true. tbh i was using monty python's "every sperm is sacred" song as a reference fo that example.

Reigeon is indead a tool, unfortionately an inconsistant and unreliable one. For example miracles are unrepeatable.

I think the view that "scientific reason can give a moral compass" is terribly flawed and the misunderstanding that  causes of most Religion vs Science debate.

Science gives us ways and means to act with some resonable expectation of outcome, it is then people that use their own morality to judge which action is good or bad. Forensic science will tell us what kind of knife you used to kill your wife, but it will not tell us whether or not it was a good thing to do. It may then suggest a better, more efficient knife to use in the future.

if you have some examples of where you think scientific reason can give a moral compass i would be interested.

 

Religion is a tool. A very adjustable tool. So if it's inconsistent and "unreliable" (?) then it needs to be adjusted.

Scientific reason can give us a moral compass. Doersn't matter whether or not this truth makes you feel uncomfortable. We need a moral compass to achieve a certain goal in society. One goal can be to achieve a militaristic society (Sparta where it's acceptable to kill babies if they don't live up to certain standards.

Religion VS Science debates are held by people who understand neither sufficiently to form an pinion about them.

 

Examples: Anything.

Set a goal and scientific reason will give you the most efficient way to achieve it.

 

And this gives certain basic rules in almost any society. Like "don't kill". A loss of life is a loss of investment for society.

And so on and on.

 

 

In fact, our moral compass isn't randomly made up. There are reasons why we judge certain things to be morally unacceptable.

Good read there.

A moral compass,

 is an attitude, structured by consequences.

A person that has never experiencing religion can be as moral as a man with complete religion in his life, achieved by the basic societial understanding of right from wrong and the consequences of a given action.

A moral compass is designed by your location, community, and laws.

If not then we must resort to looking at nature for answers. Natures response is, survival of the fittest; kill to eat, kill to dominate, kill to defend, kill to aggress.

Kill, or be killed, is the most common basic primal instinct of every living creature on this planet in the wild.

Just my thought on the argument.

Originally posted by DailyBuzz

 

 

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

 

i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do.

 

Perhaps you should compare the first part of your post to where it led you in the end. Is it unreasonable to think that the disciples endured what befell them simply because it was their desire to be close to god and their unwavering belief that Jesus was son of god?

I'm not going to debate whether homosexuality is a choice or not (I don't believe it is, for the record), but so what if it is? Why should I care what someone else chooses to do with their life? Unlike your comparisons of murder and pedophilia, nobody was harmed in the homosexual act. So why are you so threatened by it? You still have every opportunity to find what makes you happy in life.

 

if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up.

People deal with alienation, bigotry and even torture every day becasue of their religion, sexual orientation, gender, race, class, etc. How does this differ from what Jesus and the disciples endured for their beliefs? Do you think you have anything in common with Pontius Pilate?

Being an agnostic, I have no opinions one way or the other. I spend a lot of time adding questions to a list that never gets anything checked off. I, like you, find it very hard to believe that a person would endure such torture and ultimately gruesome death for a position they didn't consider as fact. To me, this is not unlike soldiers who fight for their country or citizens who fight for racial equality or even same sex marriage. I think it's high time we stopped all the fear of people's differences and learned to embrace them. After all, that's what Jesus would have done, right?

Homosexuality doesnt threaten me......it only threatens the practioner. Why should you or I care? Would you care if you saw a blind man walking into the way of a bus?  Love for everyone makes me care, because i know God doesnt want anyone to perish that is the whole point of Jesus. Your example of soldiers and same sex marriages are very different because you see there is alot of people out there today who supports same sex marriage and the soldiers.....back then christianity was just starting off so there was limited support, and also how many soldiers you know who have met the president ate with the president, embraced the president? The disciples saw Jesus, ate with him, embraced him saw him touch others and work miracles. Is it there desire to believe he is the son of God? i think not, it wasnt a desire to make him son of God it was proven to them. It was there desire for him to take up his kingdom but he told them his kingdom is not of this world. There desire was to get closer to God, yes but only after they first knew Jesus. Jesus love and embraced people yes, but Jesus also made known to them there error. I love and i will embrace anyone, but if i see something i believe to be wrong i will say something because i feel its my responsibility to help. If i see someone walking to the edge i will try my best to help them realize hey man your about to fall down a huge steep hill with jagged edges, you will be torn apart and your guts will spill out,  you will die! If someone heard me say this without seeing or knowning that the man is walking off a cliff then they would think that im mad and think its just my opinion or what i believe. The edge is sin and the consequenecs (the tearing apart and guts spill out) is in mild the pain that leads to death.

 I also want to add this link, it will offend some of you nonetheless, its the truth.

http://www.carm.org/questions/sex_verses_list.htm

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

 
Homosexuality doesnt threaten me......it only threatens the practioner. Why should you or I care? Would you care if you saw a blind man walking into the way of a bus?  Love for everyone makes me care, because i know God doesnt want anyone to perish that is the whole point of Jesus. 

Obviously, it is your belief that homosexuals choose to live such a lifestyle and will be damned for that choice. There is no need for me to waste time debating this since you have already taken your position. I would like to say that I appreciate how tolerant you are of all that you consider 'sinners'. However, I am deeply troubled that you find it so effortless to compare homosexuality with muder, rape and pedophilia.

Your example of soldiers and same sex marriages are very different because you see there is alot of people out there today who supports same sex marriage and the soldiers.....back then christianity was just starting off so there was limited support,

"Today" being the key word. Any unpopular movemnet has a starting point with little support. Very few have more support than Christianity has today. The 'little support' you are talking about was 2,000 years ago and at a time when homosexuality was also punishable by death. How much traction did racial and gender equality have back then?

 and also how many soldiers you know who have met the president ate with the president, embraced the president? The disciples saw Jesus, ate with him, embraced him saw him touch others and work miracles.

I am a U.S. citizen. We do not fight for our president. We fight to defend our constitution. Just as activists put themselves in harm's way to fight for equality on many fronts.

Is it there desire to believe he is the son of God? i think not, it wasnt a desire to make him son of God it was proven to them. It was there desire for him to take up his kingdom but he told them his kingdom is not of this world. There desire was to get closer to God, yes but only after they first knew Jesus.

Don't mince words here. This is exactly what I said. It was the desire of Jesus' disciples to be close to god and their unwavering belief that Jesus was son of god. I absolutely agree that the apostles believed Jesus was son of god. Furthermore, I don't think anyone who had any doubts would have endured that kind of torture otherwise.

Jesus love and embraced people yes, but Jesus also made known to them there error. I love and i will embrace anyone, but if i see something i believe to be wrong i will say something because i feel its my responsibility to help. If i see someone walking to the edge i will try my best to help them realize hey man your about to fall down a huge steep hill with jagged edges, you will be torn apart and your guts will spill out,  you will die! If someone heard me say this without seeing or knowning that the man is walking off a cliff then they would think that im mad and think its just my opinion or what i believe. The edge is sin and the consequenecs (the tearing apart and guts spill out) is in mild the pain that leads to death.

Really? So, do you also speak with murderers and rapists at your local penetentiary, or just post about how homosexuality is a sin?

My personal belief is based on a deep connection between somthing that would seem as polar opposite.  Science and Religion.

Im not going to take the time to begin explaining because its based off alot of compulsive knowledge, but to give you an idea, check any quotes from Albert Einstein, or any of the major philosophers from any time period.

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

 

Homosexuality doesnt threaten me......it only threatens the practioner. Why should you or I care? Would you care if you saw a blind man walking into the way of a bus?  Love for everyone makes me care, because i know God doesnt want anyone to perish that is the whole point of Jesus. 

Altruism doesn't exist. Get off your homophobic high horse.