General Discussion

Originally posted by fyerwall

Originally posted by Vrika
If PC user would only need to push one button or a combination of buttons simultaneously, and the console user would have to start switching hotbar pages or doing some other button sequences, there is no way the console user could do it as fast as the PC user. And if the game were slowed down enough for it to run at comfortable speed to the console user, the PC user would feel that it'd run too slowly.

Its possible, but again it all comes down to the player. Playing games like street fighter and MK multiple other fighter games that required combos and such throughout my teen years, I can navigate a controller in a PC MMO just as well as using a keyboard, as I am sure many others could as well.

Originally posted by David99

 

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

Originally posted by David99

 

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

I'm getting really tired of console apologists reminding PC snobs that you can hook a keyboard and mouse up to a PS3 or XBox 360 everytime someone bashes console controllers. If the keyboard + mouse configuration was such a wonderful control scheme, then consoles would already be using them and arcade games would have adopted it while they still existed. The only times that a keyboard and mouse is really appropriate is for flight sims, RTS and traditional strategy games where you need all the resource management functionality of Microsoft Excel.

 

Sure, you can hook a mouse and keyboard up to your new console - but exactly how many games support this? And how many games allow you to turn 'auto aim' off? How many games allow you to remap keyboard controls, adjust mouse sensitivity etc...

But anyway, ignoring this gaping flaw in your argument, consoles are becoming more like a PC every generation. Now days we have consoles with desktop HDD's, ATI graphics card, IBM cpu's, internet access etc.. and now (although very limited) mouse and keyboard support? ha, in a couple of more generation's consoles will likely be nothing more than a standardized PC made by Microsoft/Sony - if they haven't become that already.

But, as it currently stands, why is it console vs pc; I am quite happy owning both.

 

Um... not to sound too sarcastic here but.... did you actually.... you know... READ the paragraph that you quoted?

Just asking for clarification here.....

So your reminding us that consoles allow you to connect a k/b and mouse, yet there's next to no games that support them...

Right, thanks for that, but what was your point again?

Now I'll remind you that PC's have a plethora of peripherals (including game pads, joysticks, steering wheels) available to them, and more importantly, they work flawlessly in a majority of games.

And if you are too daft to see why a mouse and keyboard wasn't feasible in an arcade environment... well, that's too bad. And guess what, arcade games didn't use game pad's either *SHOCK*, guess you didn't think that one through to well - so let me try redirecting your question:

"If the gamepads were such a wonderful control scheme, then pc's would already be using them and arcade games would have adopted it while they still existed."

{ Mod Edit }

I'll try to be a little more clear.

Pointing out that consoles can use the keyboard + mouse is the same as saying that the KB+mouse is a superior input setup which is not the case.

Yes, KB+mouse works well for things like RTS games and Flight Sims.... Well it would actually be Keyboard + joystick, throttle and rudder pedals for flight sims, but you should be able to grasp what I'm saying.

Everything else is doable with a standard gamepad. If you want I'll be more than happy to deathmatch you using only my 360 controller, just name the game. Well... if it supports the controller that is....

OOOOOOO!!!! Here's an idea, why not get the people that use the 360 controller in WoW to do a Battleground against people that only use the KB+mouse? Now there's a practical way to settle the debat

TBH though, I don't believe in "best." I just believe that some things are better for some people. It's when elitists asshats want to scream that "MMOs can't be done with a controller" that my hackles get raised. { Mod Edit }

Originally posted by Vrika

Originally posted by fyerwall

 

Originally posted by Vrika
If PC user would only need to push one button or a combination of buttons simultaneously, and the console user would have to start switching hotbar pages or doing some other button sequences, there is no way the console user could do it as fast as the PC user. And if the game were slowed down enough for it to run at comfortable speed to the console user, the PC user would feel that it'd run too slowly.

Its possible, but again it all comes down to the player. Playing games like street fighter and MK multiple other fighter games that required combos and such throughout my teen years, I can navigate a controller in a PC MMO just as well as using a keyboard, as I am sure many others could as well.

 

If you can use controller well, then ofc you may be able to use a sequence of controller buttons faster than press a single one (or a combination) with keyboard.

But that doesn't mean you wouldn't be at a disadvantage against someone who is using keyboard and can use it well.



But your post got me thinking: Since controller users are so good at making comboes (and remembering them by heart), why couldn't one use a controller to type in MMO? You'd just have to learn a combo (probably 2 buttons) for every letter.

Since so many people keep telling how good they are with their controllers, you should probably be able to achieve a writing speed of at least 120 letters per minute (or 2 letters per second). That isn't so bad speed. Right?

This has actually been tried before. I can't think of the game right now, but it has been done. I know of several PSP games that use a kind of cell phone text message system. BTW, have you ever seen some of these people who text on their cell phone? I don't think I can even type that damn fast!

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

Originally posted by David99

 

So your reminding us that consoles allow you to connect a k/b and mouse, yet there's next to no games that support them...

Right, thanks for that, but what was your point again?

Now I'll remind you that PC's have a plethora of peripherals (including game pads, joysticks, steering wheels) available to them, and more importantly, they work flawlessly in a majority of games.

And if you are too daft to see why a mouse and keyboard wasn't feasible in an arcade environment... well, that's too bad. And guess what, arcade games didn't use game pad's either *SHOCK*, guess you didn't think that one through to well - so let me try redirecting your question:

"If the gamepads were such a wonderful control scheme, then pc's would already be using them and arcade games would have adopted it while they still existed."

 

Since everyone got it.... except you, I'll try to be a little more clear.

Pointing out that consoles can use the keyboard + mouse is the same as saying that the KB+mouse is a superior input setup which is not the case.

Yes, KB+mouse works well for things like RTS games and Flight Sims.... Well it would actually be Keyboard + joystick, throttle and rudder pedals for flight sims, but you should be able to grasp what I'm saying. then again....

Everything else is doable with a standard gamepad. If you want I'll be more than happy to deathmatch you using only my 360 controller, just name the game. Well... if it supports the controller that is....

OOOOOOO!!!! Here's an idea, why not get the people that use the 360 controller in WoW to do a Battleground against people that only use the KB+mouse? Now there's a practical way to settle the debat

TBH though, I don't believe in "best." I just believe that some things are better for some people. It's when elitists asshats want to scream that "MMOs can't be done with a controller" that my hackles get raised. Just because you're too retarded to make a decent controller configuration doesn't mean that it's impossible.

What you were trying to convey was that in YOUR OPINION the kb+mouse works better in ONLY a few gaming genre's, as apposed to people who think it works better in many genres.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, and that you felt the need to create a whole new topic about it.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

TBH though, I don't believe in "best." I just believe that some things are better for some people. It's when elitists asshats want to scream that "MMOs can't be done with a controller" that my hackles get raised. Just because you're too retarded to make a decent controller configuration doesn't mean that it's impossible.

Please explain how controllers not having enough buttons for MMOs doesn't prove that it won't work.  I don't fucking care if you only use 5 abilities  and can't play your class to its full potential.  The rest of us like to use all of our abilities and simply can't fit them all on a 16 button controller.  If you're suggesting that a new MMOs be developed specifically to be used with a console, then I don't see what the fuck you're trying to prove because it's A) already been done (FFXI) and B) it's in development (AoC). 
Unfortunately, these games are limited by the number of buttons the controllers have.   Meaning classes will have less skills (or, at least, controller players will be limited by their button space) Meaning these games will shy away from the expansive "choose which abilities to use" to the more twitch gameplay style that we already have in so many console adventure games. So while these games will technically be considered MMOs, they won't truly be the same thing because they'll be redesigned and emphasize and entirely different gameplay style (AoC is already incorporating aiming and shit like that...sounds pretty twitch to me).

I guess it depends on what you consider an MMO.  You people are just arguing about semantics (ie, whether an MMO on a console is still part of the MMO genre), which is why this thread is so stupid.  Basically, I'm saying that the keyboard mouse setup necessitated previous MMO design (EQ was designed around the keyboard setup and an MMO is, by definition, an EQ clone)  And, because of the origin of the MMO, the keyboard mouse setup defines the genre.  (or, in your opinion, not.) Still, changing the interface changes key game design.  Which, arguably, could change the type of game you consider it.  Basically, OP, you're still wrong, because MMOs, in their existing incarnation, simply cannot work on consoles.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 

Originally posted by Vrika

If you can use controller well, then ofc you may be able to use a sequence of controller buttons faster than press a single one (or a combination) with keyboard.

But that doesn't mean you wouldn't be at a disadvantage against someone who is using keyboard and can use it well.



But your post got me thinking: Since controller users are so good at making comboes (and remembering them by heart), why couldn't one use a controller to type in MMO? You'd just have to learn a combo (probably 2 buttons) for every letter.

Since so many people keep telling how good they are with their controllers, you should probably be able to achieve a writing speed of at least 120 letters per minute (or 2 letters per second). That isn't so bad speed. Right?

 

This has actually been tried before. I can't think of the game right now, but it has been done. I know of several PSP games that use a kind of cell phone text message system. BTW, have you ever seen some of these people who text on their cell phone? I don't think I can even type that damn fast!

yeah, make people learn a new keyboard setup to play a game.  That's a great fucking business model. Really,  why not just use a keyboard?   The point is that people already know how to use a keyboard, so it's the most convenient setup.  Game controllers work great when they're simple, for games that don't require dozens of different abilites. When you have a complicated game with a lot of different inputs, yeah, sure i guess some sort of combinations could work, but why just not use the interface device that literally everyone in the world is already comfortable with rather than forcing people to remember combos?

Seriously though, if you think people can text as fast as people can type on a qwerty keyboard, than this argument is futile because you're just too stubborn to have an intelligent debate with.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Pointing out that consoles can use the keyboard + mouse is the same as saying that the KB+mouse is a superior input setup which is not the case.

The keyboard and mouse offer more user input, better accuracy, controls, customization etc.. so yes, I would say they are superior.

Yes, KB+mouse works well for things like RTS games and Flight Sims....

It also works well in RTS, MMO, RPG, FPS, Sims etc.. actually, the only genre I think the gamepad has ANY advantage in is racing. The solution? Plug my 360 controller into my PC.

Everything else is doable with a standard gamepad. If you want I'll be more than happy to deathmatch you using only my 360 controller, just name the game. Well... if it supports the controller that is....

D E L U S I O N  A L - what does it spell?!

OOOOOOO!!!! Here's an idea, why not get the people that use the 360 controller in WoW to do a Battleground against people that only use the KB+mouse? Now there's a practical way to settle the debat 

Now I'd love to see that!

TBH though, I don't believe in "best." I just believe that some things are better for some people. It's when elitists asshats want to scream that "MMOs can't be done with a controller" that my hackles get raised. Just because you're too retarded to make a decent controller configuration doesn't mean that it's impossible.

Sure, anythings possible, I mean... AOC meant to be hitting consoles. Let's see if they are game enough to let console players 'try' and compete against PC users... bring on the slaughter!