General Discussion

I'm getting really tired of console apologists reminding PC snobs that you can hook a keyboard and mouse up to a PS3 or XBox 360 everytime someone bashes console controllers. If the keyboard + mouse configuration was such a wonderful control scheme, then consoles would already be using them and arcade games would have adopted it while they still existed. The only times that a keyboard and mouse is really appropriate is for flight sims, RTS and traditional strategy games where you need all the resource management functionality of Microsoft Excel.

Just how fucking complicated do you think Diku style MMOs (EQ, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW, etc.) are? Remember that a 360 controller has 16 buttons. The skill hotbar only takes up the 0-9 range.  So the D-pad, face buttons and two shoulder buttons are all that's required to actually controll all of your character's skills. Left stick moves, right stick rotates camera, left trigger targets, right trigger attacks. Secondary screens work "point and click" with the right stick controlling the pointer with X and A working as the right and left moust buttons respectively. How would you get to those secondary screens? Uh... start... or select maybe... Just because PC supremists aren't creative enough to consider gamepad configurations that work, doesn't mean that they don't exsist.

We aren't talking about Microsoft Flight Simulator here, we're talking about games like WoW,  CoH, Guild Wars, EQ2 or even Vanguard. You don't need the accuracy of the mouse since combat in most MMOs is auto-attack. You just need to be able to target an oppenent and spam hot buttons. You can't do that with a controller? That's a new one on me.

Actually, I've already covered this issue in blogs a couple of times already.

Dumbed Down Controls?

Controller Rant

I am guilty of this, and admit it. I mainly used the keyboard/mouse example to show the ability is there and to squash the argument (along with the Disc capacity, Hard Drive capacity, etc)

I myself have used a gamepad many times in MMOs, and it has worked out rather well with just a little bit of getting used to (after years of using just the standard keyboard/mouse). The gamepad was a 360 for Windows pad, and aside from typing in chat (which most people play with voice software such as vent these days) its was neglegible.

So I apologise for being an apologist-er, you know what I mean (please dont hit me )

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

 or even Vanguard.

you've obviously never played a vanguard class to 50.  In fact, i'd say that you hit 16 skills around or before lvl 22, depending on your class.

MMORPGs aren't about twitch; they're more about using the correct skills in the correct order and that wouldn't be very hard if you only had a few abilities.  I A gamepad with enough buttons to play more complicated MMOs like vanguard would be as complicated as a keyboard and I'd rather use the setup i'm familiar with.  Plus you can type.

oh, and everquest taught me to touch type.  Can't think of any such useful skills a game controller has ever taught me.

I never used the controller as an excuse that Consoles shouldn't get MMOs...

I have, on the other hand, used pathetic UI (very important in MMOs) layouts that cannot be changed as a bad example as to why Consoles will not make it in the MMO space.

Up until recently I also used the excuse that TV's had nowhere near the resolution of it's Monitor counterparts... while this is still true, I find many people are quite satisfied with their minimalistic resolution of "1080"... I wouldn't play a MMO below 1440 across myself, but it goes back to the UI Elements.

Overall, I can trace the UI as the reason over and over.  It's not the controller, it's not the resolution (well it is for me... but most people don't seem bothered)... it's the UI.

I know NOBODY who uses the UI standard when it comes to MMOs, they always customize it.  I know people who won't PLAY MMOs without the ability to move and tweak every last UI setting... the very idea is actually "anti-console"esk in it's own.

When I get excited about a game, and I see it's coming out on a console as well... I cringe... I cringe because I start to think of a dumbed down UI that will be more trouble then it's worth.

Good post...I was tired of seeing this as well, a good MMO on a console would be designed to be used with a controller and I know that it would work well.

You don't need to really change your UI on a console because the problem with keyboards are getting all your skills in the right spots so you can hit them on fly and not have to move your hands a lot to do that.  With a console all the buttons are within reach so you don't have to change much up besides maybe which button does what....which is very easy to do, but that has nothing to do with what you see onscreen.

If a game was on a console I'd like to see it more skill based than the average MMO today anyways with some sort of aim at least.  It could still be done with a controller.

And what if the MMO was like GW with tons of skills but only a few are usable at a time...then you would easily have all of the buttons needed for that MMO....it all depends on the way the game is designed....and if one was designed for an MMO a limited number of usable skills at a time would be how it would have to be done. 

I am perfectly fine with that...just look at TCoS and it's skill system, very complex...but only a few skills are used at a time, but you still have access to over 30 while fighting...

Hmmm....think out side the box....*gasp*....we don't want that!

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

I never used the controller as an excuse that Consoles shouldn't get MMOs...

I have, on the other hand, used pathetic UI (very important in MMOs) layouts that cannot be changed as a bad example as to why Consoles will not make it in the MMO space.

Up until recently I also used the excuse that TV's had nowhere near the resolution of it's Monitor counterparts... while this is still true, I find many people are quite satisfied with their minimalistic resolution of "1080"... I wouldn't play a MMO below 1440 across myself, but it goes back to the UI Elements.

Overall, I can trace the UI as the reason over and over.  It's not the controller, it's not the resolution (well it is for me... but most people don't seem bothered)... it's the UI.

I know NOBODY who uses the UI standard when it comes to MMOs, they always customize it.  I know people who won't PLAY MMOs without the ability to move and tweak every last UI setting... the very idea is actually "anti-console"esk in it's own.

When I get excited about a game, and I see it's coming out on a console as well... I cringe... I cringe because I start to think of a dumbed down UI that will be more trouble then it's worth.

Originally posted by Gameloading

 

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

I never used the controller as an excuse that Consoles shouldn't get MMOs...

I have, on the other hand, used pathetic UI (very important in MMOs) layouts that cannot be changed as a bad example as to why Consoles will not make it in the MMO space.

Up until recently I also used the excuse that TV's had nowhere near the resolution of it's Monitor counterparts... while this is still true, I find many people are quite satisfied with their minimalistic resolution of "1080"... I wouldn't play a MMO below 1440 across myself, but it goes back to the UI Elements.

Overall, I can trace the UI as the reason over and over.  It's not the controller, it's not the resolution (well it is for me... but most people don't seem bothered)... it's the UI.

I know NOBODY who uses the UI standard when it comes to MMOs, they always customize it.  I know people who won't PLAY MMOs without the ability to move and tweak every last UI setting... the very idea is actually "anti-console"esk in it's own.

When I get excited about a game, and I see it's coming out on a console as well... I cringe... I cringe because I start to think of a dumbed down UI that will be more trouble then it's worth.

Consoles are fully capable of changing the UI as much as a player wants if developers want to take advantage of that hardware feature. It's not anti console at all.

 

The issue might be that without a mouse, adjusting the textbox or quickbars might be a tad rough.  When I play EQ2 or PotBS I have 5 or 6 quickbars open, 2 text boxes, an array of maps/compass/etc items... I just have trouble seeing how it would work on a console.

However, if games ship with a standard static UI nobody can change, console players would be the quickest to adapt.  Definately.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

I'm getting really tired of console apologists reminding PC snobs that you can hook a keyboard and mouse up to a PS3 or XBox 360 everytime someone bashes console controllers. If the keyboard + mouse configuration was such a wonderful control scheme, then consoles would already be using them and arcade games would have adopted it while they still existed. The only times that a keyboard and mouse is really appropriate is for flight sims, RTS and traditional strategy games where you need all the resource management functionality of Microsoft Excel.

Just how fucking complicated do you think Diku style MMOs (EQ, DAoC, LoTRO, WoW, etc.) are? Remember that a 360 controller has 16 buttons. The skill hotbar only takes up the 0-9 range.  So the D-pad, face buttons and two shoulder buttons are all that's required to actually controll all of your character's skills. Left stick moves, right stick rotates camera, left trigger targets, right trigger attacks. Secondary screens work "point and click" with the right stick controlling the pointer with X and A working as the right and left moust buttons respectively. How would you get to those secondary screens? Uh... start... or select maybe... Just because PC supremists aren't creative enough to consider gamepad configurations that work, doesn't mean that they don't exsist.

We aren't talking about Microsoft Flight Simulator here, we're talking about games like WoW,  CoH, Guild Wars, EQ2 or even Vanguard. You don't need the accuracy of the mouse since combat in most MMOs is auto-attack. You just need to be able to target an oppenent and spam hot buttons. You can't do that with a controller? That's a new one on me.

Actually, I've already covered this issue in blogs a couple of times already.

Dumbed Down Controls?

Controller Rant

WASD plus mouse FTW!!!!

Dpad FTL

Dpads make my hands hurt, and I won't use them. However, I have a Wii and I like that because you just point at the screen. If you use some sort of Wii controls that might be fun.