Originally posted by Thunderous

 

Well, first and foremost in Pre-CU the player had CHOICE.

 

We had the choice of what to do, what skill to level, how to level it, and to make our character anything we wanted him/her to be.

I rarely got bored "grinding" un Pre-CU because I knew that I had freedom.  The NGE sticks you in a restricted linear path, and you simply grind your way to a high level, with very little uniqueness.

The NGE took away freedom and never gave it back.  Almost EVERYTHING in way of content SOE has added since the NGE the Pre-CU offered in a better way. 

Sure the Pre-CU lacked content, as does the NGE.  But it offered freedom.  The NGE will NEVER offer that.

For the record, that highlighted sentence is utter nonsense.  Pre-CU offered a better version of Restuss?  Oh, that's right, battlefields were deactivated.  Pre-CU offered better elite encounters?  Oh, that's right, Krayt's, DWB, squall cave, force crystal caves etc were such wonderful dungeons and encounters compared to the dozens of instances and other encounters now.  Pre-CU space was better than NGE?  Yeah, I never wanted elite NPC ships to battle in space either.  Pre-CU crafting was better?  Yeah, no crafter would have ever wanted to be able to reverse engineer skill tapes for weapons, armor, and clothing like they can now.  Pre-CU collections were better?  Yeah, there was the NS arband, rare paintings, mando armor, jetpacks, etc, but now there is even more on top of that.  Oh, and how about those great pre-CU quest lines?  I think you get my point, but I am sure you will argue it...

You weren't around during pre-CU were you?

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Pre-CU offered a better version of Restuss?

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Pre-CU offered better elite encounters?

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Pre-CU space was better than NGE?

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Pre-CU crafting was better?

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Pre-CU collections were better?

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LOL broken quote lines.

Originally posted by daeandor

 

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

In pre-cu you would grind for the skills you wanted personally. You had 250 points to put into the skills of your choice to make the character that you personally wanted. In the NGE you grind to reach a level of a class that developers want you to have. You have 9 choices. Your grinding to be a level 90 medic in the NGE VS. grinding to be whatever you want to be in pre-cu. where you had  many choices.  Its different. Pre-cu was better in that area..from a gamers point of view. Choice is always better for gamers from my point of view. Especially when grinding is concerned, if it has to be in time-sink form, then allow players to have choices so they can sink their time into a character they want.

I was there, I know how it worked.  And my topic was grinding, not whether the classless system was better.  Pre-CU grinding was not really any different than NGE grinding.  Just look at all that existed.  Just look at Dant MO or Lok grind groups, or holo-grinds, etc.  I was specifically addressing the comment that NGE adds content to make people grind more, but yet, that was what we did pre-CU when there wasn't any content.  At least now you get something for your grind.  Bottom line IMO is that pre-CU had the same time sinks.

 

 

If you want to bring up where the game is different, then go ahead, but I'm probably not going to disagree.

Just saying in pre-cu people were focused on the end result of the grind because it was something that they themselves had created. So the grind wasnt looked at under a microscope like the NGE because there is less interest in the end result. You get to be what some guy thought of. So the focus switches to the grind and picking it apart. I think its a sign of uninteresting level 90 classes, but I dont play so I dont know really. Yes there was a grind in both, but people didnt pay attention to the grind as much because the reward was what they thought of. Thats why people complain about the grind now that didnt mind it before.

Originally posted by sookster54

You weren't around during pre-CU were you?

Actually, I do not play now and my join date is 9/3/2003.  I played pre-Jedi, pre-holos, pre-cities, pre-mounts, pre-speeders, pre-JTL, post-JTL, new JTL, pre-CU, CU, hologrind, pre-CU NS and new NS, old village, new village, and NGE, actually, I've at least played SWG during every period of time in it's existence. 

I didn't say everything was better now.  What I said was that the previous poster was wrong in stating everything in pre-CU days was better than any improvements made during NGE.  Since NGE came out, it has slowly improved to the point where the parts of pre-CU and CU that were poor are actually good.  Outside of SOE actually implementing NGE, the period of time that we call NGE has actually had decent improvements.  I'm not just talking about returning things that existed in pre-CU or CU days, I'm talking the actual implementation content with meaningful rewards, experience, and storyline. 

Don't get me wrong either, there are aspects of pre-CU I miss:  the classless and levelless characters, meaningful HAM combat system, the wound system, some aspects of decay (although I did not like the way it worked in SWG then), etc.  The biggest thing, of course, was the community that was lost with CU and worse, NGE.  But there was a lot I didn't like, especially toward the end of pre-CU:  the buffs, the skill tapes system (Reverse engineering is sooo much better in retrospect), the way armor worked, the growing Jedi population, the mission grind at MO, etc.  If I had my way, I would have the combat of pre-CU, the buffs and healing of CU, the levelless classless system of pre-CU,  the armor and weapons of CU, the creature AI of CU (after they revamped them and gave specials), the crafting of CU with some aspects of NGE (expertise), and the content of NGE.  I'd also make the expertise of NGE (tweaked) into essentially the Elite Mastery Professions we had hoped to get at some point in pre-CU and CU.

Originally posted by FikusOfAhazi

Just saying in pre-cu people were focused on the end result of the grind because it was something that they themselves had created. So the grind wasnt looked at under a microscope like the NGE because there is less interest in the end result. You get to be what some guy thought of. So the focus switches to the grind and picking it apart. I think its a sign of uninteresting level 90 classes, but I dont play so I dont know really. Yes there was a grind in both, but people didnt pay attention to the grind as much because the reward was what they thought of. Thats why people complain about the grind now that didnt mind it before.

Actually, that is a good point, and I agree.

They decimated the game. No idea why people are arguing about the wisdom of the changes they made because that debate is over.  The new system is so utterly facile that even the hardcore fans have thrown up their hands and moved on.  I joined the largest guild on my old server during my trial time and that consists of maybe having 5 guys on on the weekends.

They ditched a sandbox system in lieu of an _utterly_ debased linear system and there actually are people here defending it. The internet will dredge up the one person who'll bitch about a sunny day, the one who will defend puppy kicking. It's the tyranny of the idiot.

Originally posted by sookster54

You weren't around during pre-CU were you?

 

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Pre-CU offered a better version of Restuss?

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PvP was everywhere you went, player cities, Theed, Mining outpost, Bestine/Anchorhead, hell even in the middle of Dath and Endor at times and this was even common on low populated servers.

PvP still happens in random locations, with people roaming the Galaxy overt.   Yes, Restuss is probably the more popular place to PvP but that's more a choice rather then a restriction.

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Pre-CU offered better elite encounters?

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At least we didn't have to deal with buggy ass instances and NS Elders were an extordenary challenge back then, you obviously never fought one wielding a stun baton and force choked you at the same time eh?

Being that NS Elders are Gold Elites now, fighting and winning against one is something only the very best will be able to do even today.  As for the "buggy ass instances", is that something you've experienced or just something you threw in because it sounds good and fits in with your supposed argument?

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Pre-CU space was better than NGE?

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JTL was untouched from November 2004 to Janurary 2008.

Not entirely true, it did get an update when Rage of the Wookies launched in April 2005.

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Pre-CU crafting was better?

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There was decay and it brought back customers, there was an economy, crafted weapons and armor were actually useful, need I say more?

Crafted Armour has always been useful and crafted weapons are once again the best choice.  While weapons  might be a different story, armour has no problems with the lack of decay, infact IMO, it's better off without it.

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Pre-CU collections were better?

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Pre-CU wasn't loot-based, this is what we call "sandbox", figure out what that means.

Pre-cu's had its share of loots that everyone wanted.  MOBs that dropped tapes and the uber weapon drops massively were massively camped for their loots, for example.   In most cases in SWG today, the loots you get all involve a crafter in some way - you generally don't use a loot item raw.  Most collections give schematics as rewards rather then a finished product.

LOL broken quote lines.

Obraik, funny you would say SWG is better off without decay...

The economy is 100% shot now. 

You people will defend this game to your dying days or until SOE does something yet again to further ruin the game.

Problem is that SWG is as bad as it could be and there isn't much SOE could do to ruin it again.

Obraik, there is nothing that SOE could do to get you to quit playing this game and I highly doubt you ever played Pre-CU and have no personal reference to compare.  You turn a blind eye to everything that SWG fails in, which is just about everything.  There is good reason this game is considered by the masses to be one of the worst on the market.

Only SOE employees would so defiantly defend the game blindly, like you are. 

Originally posted by Thunderous

Obraik, funny you would say SWG is better off without decay...

The economy is 100% shot now. 

You people will defend this game to your dying days or until SOE does something yet again to further ruin the game.

Problem is that SWG is as bad as it could be and there isn't much SOE could do to ruin it again.

Obraik, there is nothing that SOE could do to get you to quit playing this game and I highly doubt you ever played Pre-CU and have no personal reference to compare.  You turn a blind eye to everything that SWG fails in, which is just about everything.  There is good reason this game is considered by the masses to be one of the worst on the market.

Only SOE employees would so defiantly defend the game blindly, like you are. 

Without decay, layered armour is what sells and it gives armoursmiths MUCH more customisation options allowing us to differentiate ourselves from other armoursmiths on the server.  It's also more hands on since the majority of orders are all custom designed to suit the customers needs.  Lack of sales is not an issue either - as it is I have about a 1 week wait time for anyone placing orders.

I'm sure there's plenty SOE could do that would make me quit.  Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet ;)  We've been through the whole issue of me playing pre-cu - I gave you the proof to show that yes, I did play back then however if you don't want to believe that then that's your own prerogative.

Originally posted by Obraik

 

I'm sure there's plenty SOE could do that would make me quit.  Fortunately, that hasn't happened yet ;) 

lol I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Eventually everyone becomes "disgruntled".

Originally posted by daeandor

 

Originally posted by Thunderous

 

Well, first and foremost in Pre-CU the player had CHOICE.

 

We had the choice of what to do, what skill to level, how to level it, and to make our character anything we wanted him/her to be.

I rarely got bored "grinding" un Pre-CU because I knew that I had freedom.  The NGE sticks you in a restricted linear path, and you simply grind your way to a high level, with very little uniqueness.

The NGE took away freedom and never gave it back.  Almost EVERYTHING in way of content SOE has added since the NGE the Pre-CU offered in a better way. 

Sure the Pre-CU lacked content, as does the NGE.  But it offered freedom.  The NGE will NEVER offer that.

You can still be whatever class you want in NGE via the respec NPC.  Now, I'm not here to argue which is better or worse.  I'm just here to say that regardless of how horrible people think the game is, I personally find it ironic that they are saying it is horrible for the same things that existed pre-CU. 

 

 

For the record, that highlighted sentence is utter nonsense.  Pre-CU offered a better version of Restuss?  Oh, that's right, battlefields were deactivated.  Pre-CU offered better elite encounters?  Oh, that's right, Krayt's, DWB, squall cave, force crystal caves etc were such wonderful dungeons and encounters compared to the dozens of instances and other encounters now.  Pre-CU space was better than NGE?  Yeah, I never wanted elite NPC ships to battle in space either.  Pre-CU crafting was better?  Yeah, no crafter would have ever wanted to be able to reverse engineer skill tapes for weapons, armor, and clothing like they can now.  Pre-CU collections were better?  Yeah, there was the NS arband, rare paintings, mando armor, jetpacks, etc, but now there is even more on top of that.  Oh, and how about those great pre-CU quest lines?  I think you get my point, but I am sure you will argue it...

Oh really, I can go respec to a Master Fencer/Pistoleer in the NGE?  Funny, it didn't give the option last time I logged.

By the way, utter nonsense?  In Pre-CU we didn't need grindfest like "Elite Encounters" or "Heroic Encounters" to entertain us.

We had a world and we entertained ourselves.  We had the FREEDOM to entertain ourselves. 

We had better Jedi, we had a BETTER form of BM in Creature Handler, we had FAR BETTER melee combat.  Everything was better.

The developers didn't need to add worthless content to keep us busy so we would resub, the game itself kept us busy, the virtual world kept us busy, a working economy kept us busy. 

Here's my quick comparrison:

I'll take the choices of the Pre-CU, thank you very much.

Originally posted by Thunderous

 

 

Oh really, I can go respec to a Master Fencer/Pistoleer in the NGE?  Funny, it didn't give the option last time I logged.

By the way, utter nonsense?  In Pre-CU we didn't need grindfest like "Elite Encounters" or "Heroic Encounters" to entertain us.

We had a world and we entertained ourselves.  We had the FREEDOM to entertain ourselves. 

We had better Jedi, we had a BETTER form of BM in Creature Handler, we had FAR BETTER melee combat.  Everything was better.

The developers didn't need to add worthless content to keep us busy so we would resub, the game itself kept us busy, the virtual world kept us busy, a working economy kept us busy. 

You just have to be right don't you?  Even when you know nothing about the subject.  No, you cannot respec to pre-NGE skillboxes since they no longer exist.  That is a horrible example.  Pre-CU was a grindfest except in the cantinas.  Your precious world still exists in NGE almost unchanged, people just refuse to see it because of their blind hatred for what they feel SWG has become.  You still have the freedom to entertain yourself, but now you choose not to.  You have become in this age what people like you, during pre-CU, called the fantasy folks who came in and couldn't understand a sandbox.

Oh, and that last comment is utter BS.  People were screaming on the forums in pre-CU for SOE to add content.  Add BH content, add smuggler content, add pvp content, add space content, add Jedi content, add Commando content, add entertainer content, etc.  Yes, we used to find ways to do it ourselves, but SOE *did* listen and added the content and now you say it is a bad thing?  What hypocritical BS.

The greatest flaw in the "disgruntled veteran" argument has become over time, the same argument people used to use against SWG during the pre-CU era.  People would say, there is nothing to do with any substance to it, yet the pre-CU fanboy ("disgruntled veteran") would reply, 'then make something to do.'  Yes, it is freedom that gave SWG it's uniqueness, yet today "disgruntled veterans" fail to use the freedom inherent in SWG (still) to make the game fun like they used to. 

Originally posted by daeandor

 

Originally posted by Thunderous

  

Oh really, I can go respec to a Master Fencer/Pistoleer in the NGE?  Funny, it didn't give the option last time I logged.....

You just have to be right don't you?  Even when you know nothing about the subject.  No, you cannot respec to pre-NGE skillboxes since they no longer exist.  That is a horrible example... 

Um... don't you recognize sarcasm?  Do they not have sarcasm on the planet you come from?  Where are you from Betelgeuse 5?

Originally posted by Aargh

Originally posted by daeandor

 

Originally posted by Thunderous

  

Oh really, I can go respec to a Master Fencer/Pistoleer in the NGE?  Funny, it didn't give the option last time I logged.....

You just have to be right don't you?  Even when you know nothing about the subject.  No, you cannot respec to pre-NGE skillboxes since they no longer exist.  That is a horrible example... 

Um... don't you recognize sarcasm?  Do they not have sarcasm on the planet you come from?  Where are you from Betelgeuse 5?

How to be Sarcastic.  I'm glad you asked because, you know, the "Oh really" and "Funny" portion of his question did not give me any clue.

Originally posted by daeandor

 

Originally posted by Thunderous

 

 

Oh really, I can go respec to a Master Fencer/Pistoleer in the NGE?  Funny, it didn't give the option last time I logged.

By the way, utter nonsense?  In Pre-CU we didn't need grindfest like "Elite Encounters" or "Heroic Encounters" to entertain us.

We had a world and we entertained ourselves.  We had the FREEDOM to entertain ourselves. 

We had better Jedi, we had a BETTER form of BM in Creature Handler, we had FAR BETTER melee combat.  Everything was better.

The developers didn't need to add worthless content to keep us busy so we would resub, the game itself kept us busy, the virtual world kept us busy, a working economy kept us busy. 

You just have to be right don't you?

Pssst he is right. ;) just a litte fyi.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

  
Pssst he is right. ;) just a litte fyi.

Well, if you say so, then I guess the discussion must end.

PS.  Aargh, that is another example of sarcasm.  Tee hee. 

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Originally posted by daeandor
Oh, and that last comment is utter BS. People were screaming on the forums in pre-CU for SOE to add content. Add BH content, add smuggler content, add pvp content, add space content, add Jedi content, add Commando content, add entertainer content, etc. Yes, we used to find ways to do it ourselves, but SOE *did* listen and added the content and now you say it is a bad thing? What hypocritical BS.

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And don't forget CH, content was added for them too during CU...

I'm not trying to drag out a pissing contest here, it's just that this derailment started off someone saying that NGE has added essentially nothing and pre-CU was better in every way and I disagree.  There was also the grind topic which I feel was not all that different during pre-CU, CU, or NGE.  I have never said the NGE class system or even CU's level system was something I liked.  You can go back a few posts and see where I talked about what my "perfect SWG" would be, and although it might not be perfect for everyone, I think you might find I am not that far off what some "disgruntled veterans" would be willing to play.

SWG is fun if you are fan of Star Wars or a roleplayer. For roleplaying it is great to have playercities, storyteller system, beast master and the entertainerprofession. I can really understand if players like SWG because of this.

However, professions are very simple compared to other MMO's. PVE gameplay (instance entrances, line of sight, collision detection, stuck mobs etc) is way to bugged for a MMO of this age. I am talking about basic gameplay here, that is still not working as intended.

Beast Master and the crafting professions are good concepts. The downside is that lvling a pet is a grind comparable with the typical 'Korean grindfest' with the difference that you cant buy xp potions :p As solution, SOE now lets people use AFK macro's to lvl their pet! As long as they are not doing that in questlocations or causing massive lag.

Crafting is partly broken (experiment lines without use, colourschemes that are bugged, complete useless branch of Munitions profession: weapons)

Ive played this game for about 6 months and then got sick of the developers only adding new content for max lvl's and doing nothing about the years old gameplay bugs.

Then you have laggy PVP with the crapload of buffs that you need. Combine that with the simple professions, no strategic objectives and you get static wait and gank pvp. Total disappointment for anyone who is used to quality PVP (DAoC pvpers, GW pvpers be warned).

Space is fun though imo. But not enough for most players to be the single reason to stay in this game.