Originally posted by E1io

 I don't think 'non-PVPers' would be drawn to darkfall to begin with.

The thing is.. lots of those people who have hated PvP in the past have been in games where PvP is totally stacked against you.  If one person tries to gank you while you are out killing goblins, you have a legitimate chance to slay that person in Darkfall, regardless of what skills they have.  Going to be very interesting to see how the crowd is split. 

I don't want to see another game where the conflict between pve balance and pvp balance ruins the game for one side or the other. I have come to the conclusion that as long as devs give players and monsters different abilities they will never be able to figure out how to balance them in relation to one another without breaking something in the process. 9 out of 10 games that come out are pve games with pvp as an after thought so lets leave darkfall as a pvp game. You might find out that pvp done right is actually more fun than grinding the same scripted mob for phat loot.

Originally posted by ermorden

 

Originally posted by E1io

 I don't think 'non-PVPers' would be drawn to darkfall to begin with.

On the contrary, I think the expansive, non-instanced world with tons of area to explore, ridiculously well done AI and Naval Battles, sieges, physics, clan cities, and uniqueness of this game will attract plenty of folks who don't normally engage in PvP. 

 

The thing is.. lots of those people who have hated PvP in the past have been in games where PvP is totally stacked against you.  If one person tries to gank you while you are out killing goblins, you have a legitimate chance to slay that person in Darkfall, regardless of what skills they have.  Going to be very interesting to see how the crowd is split. 

Aye will be alot of RPG/ PvE players in Darkfall.

Originally posted by ghoul31

 

Originally posted by Apraxis

Now the Fighter: He fight against other person, invested the risk to lose his item set, to earn another item set.. usually a good fighter will win one item set in 5 mins. His overall income is exactly like the gatherer and the crafter.

This makes no sense. If he wins 50% of his battles, he makes no money. And there will be lots of people who lose more battles then they win. So they have to spend most of their time farming to afford more gear. they will tire of this and quit the game.

 

If you are in a small guild and are fighting a larger guild, you will always be losing more than you win. So it wont be worth it, so your guild will quit. then the large guild will have nobdy to fight, so they will quit

You can come up with your theories all day long. But full looting was only tried once, and it didn't work, and was gotten rid of. And reality is greater then your theories, especially when your theories have already been proven wrong in practice

 

It makes completely sense. But first of all, this post was how to balance fighting and non fighting activities, because all playing styles are able to make the same amount of money, in the same time.

And about your fighter, which wins less than 50% of his fights.. well, to be honest, if a fighter is as bad as you described, he should really think about to change his job.. because he is really miserable in it. ;)

Or to do it as a hobby, and then it is just usual to pay for it. As said in my above example, it is not necessary to fight, to earn money, and if you are not a fighter, or not one with at least decent skills, you should really rely on something else, because as said above.. darkfall is a pvp game, it is a game about competition, competition in every sector(crafting, fighting, resource gathering, diplomatic, and what not), and if you are not able to compete, you will lose in the long run, so look for something you are at least decent.. or you will indeed lose and have to work more than the other guy.. a little bit like in the real world, but after all, Darkfall is a sandbox it is a kind of a virtual world. In other words you can do a lot of things beside fighting, but everything with competition, and if you dont like competition darkfall will be most probably not the game for you. That it.. and to reach those competitive state, you need a currency, like in the capitalism in real live, you have to make money worth something, and then to give any action a representation in money, and therefor is full loot, and about this is darkfall. Like it or not, but that is how the concept of darkfall work.

Change it, and it will be a complete other game, or just a game like wow, but then there is almost no need for it. That simple is it... we have really enough WoW Clones.

And the concept differences are quite clear, in WoW your outcome will be determinded how much time you invest.. if you play 24/7, raid any instance all day long, you will be at the top.. in Darkfall you skills(read player skills, tactics, knowledge, reflexes, strategic, social skills and so on) will determine your outcome, and how on top you will be.. of course, you could play it anyway, but then you have to live with it, that you may do some extra work to compensate your lack in skill. If it is then fun for you or not, is completely up to you.. i personally got never fun in wow.. i did not have as much time, and i didnt like this concept.. my favor is more the DF approach. And the good thing is, that this does not just belong to fighting, it belongs to any activity you may choose, and Darkfall offers a lot of different.. and it is maybe the first game, where to be a competive crafter/trader/explorer/diplomat or whatever is satisfying and rewarding.

Edit: a few days later.. i guess i forgot to reply to some parts of your post.. sorry.

And to answer your other points in this reply. About the small clan, yes he will not as easy win against a larger clan, but if he win, he will also earn much more than the larger(a lot of armor more), and risk not as much(not so much armor.. less ppl, less armor).

And another point, in open field, a small clan will most probably avoid to fight a larger clan, which will outnumber them extremely.(with other words.. run away or retreat ) And he will most probably not attack a clan city from a much larger clan. And if the larger clan attack his city, the small clan has at least a defending bonus.. and hopefully some allys which will help them out.

And about theory and praxis, it worked in UO, and it worked in Meridian 59. EA just added trammel, because they thought it would bring back some customer, which are switched to EQ.. but it failed, the subscriber decreased after the trammel split.. and by the way, the foremost reason, why a lot ppl switched to EQ was the nice 3D graphic and the wasd controlling, and just at second the pve player which were scared away from the ffa pvp and full loot system of UO. So the few praxis example dont prove your point really, but of course we could discuss endless about it, and what interpretation would right or not.

Fact is, that since then no FFA full loot game come out, and i personally think it is really time for a new attempt, and a lot of old UO/Meridian Players miss the FFA/Full Loot experience.

And another point, the limited loot in games like Lineage is much more a pain in the ass then those both full loot systems from UO or Meridian, because Lineage is a item based grinder deluxe. And i am the first, who admit that Full Loot and item based(expensive items, item spiral) dont work together... but on the other side i would say the same with FFA and item based to be honest, a pvp game, where the player skill should be the most important part(why should i pvp beside competition of player skill?) and not imba items or get those imba items.. another point why the usual pve concept and ffa pvp dont work together.

Of course, if you mix it, and offer just a limited consensual pvp it can work, but then the pvp experience is  just limited in fighting, and that it is always a pain in the ass for the pvper to get the needed gear to be even with everyone.. and i played DAoC 2 years and enjoyed it in his limits.. but that was also the reason why i left DAoC in the end(because of ToA and the necessity of endless pve raiding for competitive items).

And i will most probably also play WAR, because the PvP fighting could be fun for a while, but i also know that it will never deliver such a pvp experience like a full loot ffa system, and because i like to pvp in all those sectors, it is much more fun with real politics and economy. WAR can from his concept, from the consensual pvp part(and pve zones) never deliver pvp politics and economy, and they knew it, and do not even try it for a good reason(because not possible).

So the point is in the end, what do you want? If you want pvp in all playstyles(and not just fighting), if you want rival politics and economy and all the drama withit, you need a ffa system, and for a good ffa system full loot is the best way to go.(for balancing and valency as described above or/and the last posts)

And with a good ffa system(mechanics) it is not as easy to pull out a pve or consensual pvp server, because you really need a lot of different mechanics. That the reason why all ffa server in consensual pvp games(like DAoC, EQ, Vanguard or any other game) just suck, at least in comparision to a well made ffa game from the ground.

1. The game needs to be made first, I dont see anything near a finished product.

2. Look at CCP the makers of EvE, they have refused to make any PVE servers and the game is now in its 5th year and still going strong, with 35 k + players on during the weekends.

Making games outside the box still works if you do it right.

I love when people say shit like "such and such game should have ______" without even considering anything beyond what they want.  For the same reason it wouldn't work in Eve, it wouldn't work in Darkfall.  The game is just not designed to be a non-item loot game.  Just like in Eve, the economy would be entirely fucked if you didn't lose your shit when you die.  One thing i never understood about today's gamers is, why the hell do they want developers to make things so easy for them.  What's the point of even playing if there's no challenge.

Originally posted by Stumpy26

1. The game needs to be made first, I dont see anything near a finished product.

2. Look at CCP the makers of EvE, they have refused to make any PVE servers and the game is now in its 5th year and still going strong, with 35 k + players on during the weekends.

Making games outside the box still works if you do it right.

 

Originally posted by ghoul31

 

Originally posted by Stumpy26

1. The game needs to be made first, I dont see anything near a finished product.

2. Look at CCP the makers of EvE, they have refused to make any PVE servers and the game is now in its 5th year and still going strong, with 35 k + players on during the weekends.

Making games outside the box still works if you do it right.

 

Eve isnt totally open pvp. The high sec space is safe. And it isn't really full looting since you have insurance and clones

 

 

ROFL!!! please tell that too the 200 odd Exhumers that goons suicided in empire aka your "safe space", its not safe it just safer cos the police shoot you if you shoot someone else which is what I expect darkfall to have.  The only place you are safe in EvE is docked in a station otherwise you are fair game.

Open full PvP is key feature of  DarkFall  i hope  they don't change this.

With that said i forsee much whine about losses  and griefs .

But aswell many counter strategies  to PK ing and Resource points raiding but  the experiences of all that situations will be priceless.

Please don't take it  away :P

Btw to you all who fear a PvP confrontation you can smack back   *no offense meant to anyone* 

I don't understand why people who claim the game will fail unless it's dumbed down are reading these part of the forums in the first place.

Originally posted by ghoul31

They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better.

   I don't see how anyone could be against this.

what they need to make is a game

Originally posted by ghoul31

They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better.

   I don't see how anyone could be against this.

Did you also ask the dev's of Hello Kitty Online, to create a HARDCORE server; with FFA, full loot AND permadeath?

Originally posted by David99

 

Originally posted by ghoul31

They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better.

   I don't see how anyone could be against this.

 

Did you also ask the dev's of Hello Kitty Online, to create a HARDCORE server; with FFA, full loot AND permadeath?

Just goes to show you, never hurts to ask.

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

 

Originally posted by David99

 

Originally posted by ghoul31

They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better.

   I don't see how anyone could be against this.

 

Did you also ask the dev's of Hello Kitty Online, to create a HARDCORE server; with FFA, full loot AND permadeath?

Actually people DID ask them to make a "hardcore" server... I remember laughing my ass off at the thread a friend linked me prior to it's deletion.

 

Just goes to show you, never hurts to ask.

That's too friggen hilarious!

*Mommy to 10 year old daughter*  "What are you doing, honey?"

*10 year old daughter to mommy*  "My fuzzy, wuzzy bear just WTFBBQPWNED!!111!! that cute, cuddly little bunny, and now I'm looting the n00b!!"

Originally posted by Zorvan

 

Originally posted by CaesarsGhost

 

Originally posted by David99

 

Originally posted by ghoul31

They need to make a non free for all, non looting server. The people who will play a ffa, full looting game is small. Maybe not large enough to support the game. If they made non ffa servers, they could get another 200k subscribers. That would ensure that the game wouldn't go under. Also, with all that extra money, coming in, they will have lots more money to develope the game, and make it better.

   I don't see how anyone could be against this.

 

Did you also ask the dev's of Hello Kitty Online, to create a HARDCORE server; with FFA, full loot AND permadeath?

Actually people DID ask them to make a "hardcore" server... I remember laughing my ass off at the thread a friend linked me prior to it's deletion.

 

Just goes to show you, never hurts to ask.

 

That's too friggen hilarious!

 

*Mommy to 10 year old daughter*  "What are you doing, honey?"

*10 year old daughter to mommy*  "My fuzzy, wuzzy bear just WTFBBQPWNED!!111!! that cute, cuddly little bunny, and now I'm looting the n00b!!"

That's one hardcore kid!

But thanks for giving me a laugh

Originally posted by Curl

I don't want to see another game where the conflict between pve balance and pvp balance ruins the game for one side or the other. I have come to the conclusion that as long as devs give players and monsters different abilities they will never be able to figure out how to balance them in relation to one another without breaking something in the process. 9 out of 10 games that come out are pve games with pvp as an after thought so lets leave darkfall as a pvp game. You might find out that pvp done right is actually more fun than grinding the same scripted mob for phat loot.

 You just don't get it do you , unless they totally remove faction this game is more suited to PvE/Solo. The game is skill based so whats the rubbish your'e spouting about balance it is not relevant.

Faction + Large Expansive world means you will never ever see me , PvE PvP not relevant its a skill/faction based game. If you have low inteligence then you may suffer but other than that .

You can kill me you won't get any loot of note your'e faction will drop and your'e life will be hell. But me I will just go kill a couple of orcs and the rags and club i pick up 1st kill will put me right back on track. So while I continue to have fun you will have a set of rags and a KOS flag.

Uhm I guess Dark Fall will be fun... But not necessarily for the elitists who to get their griefing fix, having to destroy their faction to do so.

Roll on a game that will attract a lot of non PvP Players because this is a skill based faction driven game.

As a primary PVEer i think Darkfall can survive as only a FFA PVP game. I do feel that the FFA crowd is one of the smaller niches of MMOs but what is wrong with that. If the developers and the community is happy with the amount of players this game will pull in staying pure PVP then good for them.

And it is really not fair to compare the PVPers asking for a PVP server on a PVE game to asking for a PVE server on a PVP game. There are plenty of PVE games out there and there are very few PVP games out there.

Darkfall should have a fear but not the rather small niche of players that this game will cater to. Old time PVPers come from games like UO and to an extent AC1, i think  most of these players have a respect for the game and know when it is good to PVP and when it is not good to PVP. What Darkfall has to fear is the new breed of PVPers, this group appears to be nothing more then a zerk mentality, PKing, Corpse camping bunch. You may be getting all these FPS PVP players into Darkfall and that could be ugly.

he he, we want Darkfall to be ugly. We want it to be unfair and dangerous. This way we know we can login and make a diffrence to the DF world. Every time you login you are effecting other players, citys will burn, raiders will loot villagers, pirates will roam the seas and so on.

And they are all other players : )

Just think what you and your friends could do in that game? Would you try to stop all evil? Or join them? Or some of your friends want to join and some other wants to fight. You have no idea what will happen when you login, thats a game i wanna play : )

If someone would remove the PvP, then nothing would matter. Then you would have to pretend you are playing DF. And Vanguard would be a better choice.

What is wrong with you guys? Have you become so bitter and frustrated that you have to start flaming the op? What do you lose when the devs setup extra servers with extra rulesets? YOU are not affected in any way. You will not need to play on them or even deal with the people on those servers. Yes it is a pvp game but what the op is saying is also correct. If a gazillion people would like to play DF in chat mode with character movement disabled then let them...on their own server. If some want to play with permadeath and -1 level experience loss after fleeing from a fight then let them...on their own server.

Or is it that you want all those "carebears" to be on your own server, to be your own personal victims? Could it be that you are scared that the unskilled players move to a non-pvp server and you are left with only highly skilled, hardened, 24/7 playing, cutthroat fellow pirates? That without the carebears YOU will become the victim? Are you really so scared of having a real fight with good players?

nothing except the devs said it wont happen.

the thing is the way the game is setup it hsould allow for nay type of player as long as the alignmeant system keeps the griefing down ...

the dev do not want this to turn into a pk fest and if it trys to impretty sure the devs will make the penalties even harsher