Age of Conan

Originally posted by vajuras

EVE Online pwns .... LOTRO last population reports Ive seen

 Prove it.

<< Full loot is probably the most extreme case, but imagine what it could fix.  The griefer first of all, now that immature player who gets enjoyment out of killing defenseless players will think twice because maybe that newbie has a big brother that will take all of their stuff. >>

I'm for a significant DP but I have to address this.  Looting doesn't work as a DP to stop griefers in two particular situations:

1) If there are classes that don't need gear to kill.  I still remember EQ1 on Rallos Zek in the beginning - after getting killed I'd have to spend lots of time/money re-equiping my warrior with weapons and armor.  But when I was lucky enough to kill the mages that were running through dungeons griefing, all they had on them was what  they had collected.  Their spell books couldn't be looted.  EQ has changed a bit since those days but in most games there are still classes that are far more gear dependent than others.

2) If a high level is ganking low levels and knows that other high level will probably stop him eventually, that ganker will be quickly handing off whatever he grabs and otherwise put his good stuff in the bank.

Originally posted by MrVicchio

Never, ever ever have I understood this. Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying.   No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either.  I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server.  If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.  Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty.   Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game. 

Amen brother!

I played in the old days, UO was rough enough, and I've heard terrible horror stories about EQ corpse runs... thankfully I never played EQ.

Thank God MMOs are no longer that tedius and frustrating.

The honest truth, or so I beleive, is that developers added those kinds of things as time sinks, plain and simple, because they didn't have the technology and/or know how to create a game with enough content that was enjoyable enough to keep people playing. Instead they added a lot of systems to make you take a step backwards whenever you died/did something wrong, that way you'd never fully reach the "end."

Nowadays, the devs don't make you take so many steps backwards, but instead give you enough content / reason to keep taking steps fowards. Yeah, it's still a treadmil system, but I'd much rather be constantly moving foward then always stepping back then foward again then back... etc.

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Originally posted by heerobya

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Originally posted by MrVicchio

Never, ever ever have I understood this. Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying.   No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.
MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either.  I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server.  If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.  Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty.   Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game. 

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Amen brother!
I played in the old days, UO was rough enough, and I've heard terrible horror stories about EQ corpse runs... thankfully I never played EQ.
Thank God MMOs are no longer that tedius and frustrating.
The honest truth, or so I beleive, is that developers added those kinds of things as time sinks, plain and simple, because they didn't have the technology and/or know how to create a game with enough content that was enjoyable enough to keep people playing. Instead they added a lot of systems to make you take a step backwards whenever you died/did something wrong, that way you'd never fully reach the "end."
Nowadays, the devs don't make you take so many steps backwards, but instead give you enough content / reason to keep taking steps fowards. Yeah, it's still a treadmil system, but I'd much rather be constantly moving foward then always stepping back then foward again then back... etc.

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This is just wrong..Step forward then back jadda jadda..timesink etc..

Why..Well because a death penalty is part of the game experience, it's one element that belongs in the game if choosen by the developers...

Death penaltys and other such things ARE needed, without them, well there is only half a game...

Sure, the NO sayers are right that sometimes it can be frustrating to die, because of all the consequenses etc...I understand this, but thats also the point with them..

FRUSTRATING MOMENTS LEADS TO A HIGHER GRADE OF HAPPINESS WHEN SUCCESFUL..

It's really very simple...Othervise we have no "GAME" we have something that maybe belongs to a new GENRE, but it isn't a game any longer...In the past ALL games has had consequenses for making bad moves or choices, even PACMAN or TETRIS has it...That is whats makes them interessting..

So..By slowly removing the risk you are also slowly removing the GAME, and are making it something else..

/junker

Originally posted by MrVicchio

MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.

I have to agree with Vic on this aspect of the DP problem.  I have played healers for most of the characters I have played in these games.  I like support classes, but Vic is spot on when there is a heavy penalty to punish strangers if a teammate screws up.

Lag, mouse coming unplugged, cat on the keyboard, Green Tea tidal waves across the desk.  Real life happens.

And, things change.  EQ and AC both had some difficult problems with Death Penalties, but it was what we knew.  Death hurt, we knew nothing else, so we took it in stride.  The Johnnie-come-latelies to online gaming have never known anything but WoW info-mercial style game play.  No penalties, no corpse runs (ghosting is NOT a corpse run) no lost items, nothing but free XP and free little gifts foistered at them from every tree rock and critter in the game.  And seriously, the people who are comprising today's population in these games were raised in a post-modern culture where it was illegal to say No and unthinkable to ask for effort before reward.

We can never go back to DPs.  The kids (of all ages) will cry rivers.  Their tanturms will overload the internet whining to the devs, their tears will ruin their parent's carpeting, short out the computers that their parent's bought for them and the grief counciling industry would need years to ramp up to handle the influx of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder cases. 

I'm not sure I agree.  I think you can have a DP.  Yes there will be a lot of people crying about it but it won't break the game if the game is good.  Case in point look at EvE this game has a very harsh death penalty and the game grows subs every month. 

In the long run I think a DP will help the game and help maintain customer base retention.  Interesting I dont' think it will do much to help aquisition cause you are right a fair number of people will play, die, cry and quit.  But on the other hand a fair number of people will find having a DP enhanced the depth and contrast of the game world.  It won't feel as contrived and bland it will be puntuated with death and victory pushing the experience to a higher lvl then is possible in games without a DP and this will encourage people to stay and continue to strive to overcome.

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Originally posted by rikilii

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Originally posted by vajuras
EVE Online pwns .... LOTRO last population reports Ive seen

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 Prove it.

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Turbine reported 200k subs so this is what the mmorpg charts are showing. ONly 200k for a huge IP. EVE Online reported 220k

I'm being nice I didnt even bring up Lineage 2/Lineage which is in the millions and has a harsh DP. But to be fair, Lineage is in the 'heavyweight' division so I'm leaving it out.

Let's not even bring up the #1 MMO in China

But if we want to restrict this topic to the US and exclude WoW I would say EVE Online is showing impressive numbers.

But I just dont think publishers only think about the US.

Originally posted by WiccanCircle

 

Originally posted by MrVicchio

MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.

 

I have to agree with Vic on this aspect of the DP problem.  I have played healers for most of the characters I have played in these games.  I like support classes, but Vic is spot on when there is a heavy penalty to punish strangers if a teammate screws up.

Lag, mouse coming unplugged, cat on the keyboard, Green Tea tidal waves across the desk.  Real life happens.

And, things change.  EQ and AC both had some difficult problems with Death Penalties, but it was what we knew.  Death hurt, we knew nothing else, so we took it in stride.  The Johnnie-come-latelies to online gaming have never known anything but WoW info-mercial style game play.  No penalties, no corpse runs (ghosting is NOT a corpse run) no lost items, nothing but free XP and free little gifts foistered at them from every tree rock and critter in the game.  And seriously, the people who are comprising today's population in these games were raised in a post-modern culture where it was illegal to say No and unthinkable to ask for effort before reward.

We can never go back to DPs.  The kids (of all ages) will cry rivers.  Their tanturms will overload the internet whining to the devs, their tears will ruin their parent's carpeting, short out the computers that their parent's bought for them and the grief counciling industry would need years to ramp up to handle the influx of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder cases. 

Look, in a single player game, a HARSH DP doesn't bother me, because I fail due to my own fault.   But in an MMO.. that's not the case.  And back in the day, you had little choice, EQ was the WoW of the time, and we all lived with it.

I for one am much happier to NOT deal with it, merely because of the amount of times death comes outside ones personal control

My opinion on Death Penalties:

I think this is a very fragile ground to walk on.  A potentially game breaking area of game play if you fail at balancing it.  The fact is, despite whether you like harsh DP's or enjoy the idea of having very little if any penalizations for your actions (death), the game itself has to cater to whatever the developers decided to give you as punishment for your departures.

The two more harsh things listed are permanent death and player looting.  Essentially both of these make you start over, as both cancel time played and the progress made within that time.  Whether you die and have to start over entirely, or you get looted and have to get all of your gear, or loot over again, you're still out of time dedicated.  This means in order to not be ridiculous the entire game has to be designed to fit that, to the extent that the central focus are those penalties, rather than the story lines and game play itself.

If you can loot players equiped items then basically you have to make it fairly easy to get regeared, perhaps not to the extent that you were prior, but to a point that is playable for whatever level you are.  This means you have to design gear to be