fischsemmel,

So my opinion is differant from yours and I'm a noob?  ROFL.  You aren't worth talking to because
you don't really want to hear what anybody has to say that doesn't have a cut & paste of your opinion.

I see a lot of good in MMOs today.  Then again, I'm not a pessemistic, doom and gloom sort of person either.

One problem I do see: A certain forumite mentality that demands the best artistic and creative developers working on a identifiable AAA title spending 100's of millions in development, but creating a niche game that only a few tens of thousands will enjoy.  The economic viability of such a game is impossible, yet these forumites want it anyway. Oh, and I forgot to add they want content additions that keep pace with their 40 hour per week gaming time, all for 15 bucks a month (or even better F2P).

Personall, I think grind is the biggest problem.  If a game can find something else to do than train, and make it fun, then it will be a good game.

Too much to list here, see Blog

The biggest problem with MMOs today is community.

1.  Lack of realism (often for no really good apparent reason)

2.  Too much focus on repetitive, candy-coated combat

3.  Not enough focus on world-building and complex, realistic economics and political aspects.

4.  Lack of opportunities for meaningful player-developed content.

The big problem with most MMOs today is that they are all (Most) the same. (Design wise.)

Their is no variety.  Sure you might have a different story or some different stuff but most are made to grind.  Why do I play exteel? Because its different.  It isn't a real mmo, but it is different and it isn't a copy of something already popular.  WoW already has the grind so if people are going to grind they are going to play WoW.  If someone made a copy of runescape, would I play runescape or eternal lands? (rs copy)

I am going to play runescape.  Eternal lands is very different but its foundation is so similar to runescape that it isn't even funny.  Are WoWlike games going to succeed? Maybe, some will and some won't.

I play Dungeon Runners because its just different.  Similar but some how its a nice second game.  No more fedex crap that are called quests.  The reason I am interested in Darkfall is because its really different.  No more WoWlike games trying to kill WoW.  Just make something new and amazing for ONCE!  I play guild wars because it is not like wow.  And because it isn't like all the old mmos. 

________________________________________________________________________________

Just a note for extreme wow haters: I am not saying that wow made anything new or something.

Originally posted by Wickersham

Too much like a video game and too little like a virtual world.  The RPG has been taken out of MMORPG.

You'd think that adding thousands of players would break up the monotony, but it doesn't because they're all doing the same thing too.  Well, that or they're trying to kill you.  There's no roleplaying whatsoever in any of these so-called MMORPGs.

The biggest problem I have seen with mmos is the limitations. Everything is so limited. Excessive rules, limited character customizations, limited abilities.. the whole thing that you have to create a dozen characters to be able to do everything in the game. I would love a game that had one character that can do anything and everything if they so choose. I hate all the worries about balance.. meh just bring on the fun and nuke the limits!

Originally posted by deviliscious

The biggest problem I have seen with mmos is the limitations. Everything is so limited. Excessive rules, limited character customizations, limited abilities.. the whole thing that you have to create a dozen characters to be able to do everything in the game. I would love a game that had one character that can do anything and everything if they so choose. I hate all the worries about balance.. meh just bring on the fun and nuke the limits!

But, if you could do anything and everything, what would be the point in playing? There would be no lasting appeal. Sure it would be fun for about maybe a day at most, with PvP maybe a month tops. After that, people would move to something else. Community would be non existant, the whole point behind a virtual world would be null.

There are several things that i believe must be adressed in the MMO world. Many details in which none of them come at first place. Among them, the followings:

*** The trend is heading too much towards making MMO with a standard multiplayer feel. Instance limiting the amount of people in the same area comes to my mind here. What's the purpose of playing a MMO if you can only affect small areas at a time, like you would do by loading a RTS or FPS map? It's becomes nothing more then a big organized room for multiplayer experience. There is no MMO or persitence element into it, and that's a huge problem in my book.

*** Crafting systems in most past and upcoming block busters is completely overlooked, or thrown in as a second thought. I won't sit here to try and explain developers why the economic part should play such a big role in any persitant world. If they don't understand it, they should work on standard multiplayer game or single player game where everything is loot base. The economy of a persitant world "is a game by itself", that generates game play and reasons to fight for without the need of adding any new content. The lack of good player base economy in our most popular games limit the possibility to dive into their virtual world a great deal. This might satisfy a portion of the player base, but it completely allienates those who wants a deeper experience. And there's no reasons for that because you could keep your standard player who don't like crafting in the game, and offer a solid crafting/economic system without any deterents. But you can't keep the player base who wants deep interaction between each element of the world in a shallow design though. So let's add this to the list of things that "should" be done right from now on.

*** Lack of customization is a killer. There are thousands of ways to give a player the opportunity to customize his character, gear or skills, that there's absolutely no excuses to have thousands of clones running over each other. By removing customization out of the equation, you remove the originality and creativity players can demonstrate. Once again, it penalize those who wants to go deeper, yet it wouldn't penalize those who wants to stay on the surface to provide the more eager player base with an intricated system that would allow you to customize your experience from your Avatar, to your housing and all the gear you're wearing. It's not just about pushing graphics either, it's about having the option of putting your own signature into a game, which adds a lot to the sense of being proud of being part of that game, by adding your color to the rainbow. (You feel much less of a spectator if you have a color that isn't there, rather then just one of the thousand shade of the same color that was drawn for every body.)

I think that sums it up for me. There are plenty of other details that needs to be adressed, but if they follow my recommendation here, developers would already be able to push MMO's to the next level in my book.

LOL!  and where do you get your facts from? hahahah! first off alot of games start out this way then the devs start nuking everything  that made the game fun. Look at runescape... prior to all the excessive rules and downdates players had alot of freedoms and those freedoms kept them playing for YEARS. See when you go into a game that you can do anything and everything , I say you can do it doesn't mean you will do it. You don;t start out with all abilities, yes you have to work for them, but once you earn them you can use them . The ability to be able to do them all in time is why you would keep playing,  I create all players on  a game get bored with all of them and then leave. There would be an awesome community because like I said to be able to do anything and everything, that doesn;t mean anywhere on the game, just as long as it has some place to do it.  For example for pvp areas pvp same level pvp any level, pvp multi combat,  wars with  eqipment that you can build and wars without.  What I mean by everything is that you canb have non combat areas and combat zones. Be able to trade any item in the game,  being able to enjoy personal freedoms and not play in an environment that is  too restricted.

Originally posted by deviliscious

LOL!  and where do you get your facts from? hahahah! first off alot of games start out this way then the devs start nuking everything  that made the game fun. Look at runescape... prior to all the excessive rules and downdates players had alot of freedoms and those freedoms kept them playing for YEARS. See when you go into a game that you can do anything and everything , I say you can do it doesn't mean you will do it. You don;t start out with all abilities, yes you have to work for them, but once you earn them you can use them . The ability to be able to do them all in time is why you would keep playing,  I create all players on  a game get bored with all of them and then leave. There would be an awesome community because like I said to be able to do anything and everything, that doesn;t mean anywhere on the game, just as long as it has some place to do it.  For example for pvp areas pvp same level pvp any level, pvp multi combat,  wars with  eqipment that you can build and wars without.  What I mean by everything is that you canb have non combat areas and combat zones. Be able to trade any item in the game,  being able to enjoy personal freedoms and not play in an environment that is  too restricted.

UO has the same sort of system your talking about, allowing you to learn any skill you wish to have, essentially having 1 character/class type. PvP was pretty FFA for a long time (save for in towns) until a majority of people complained about it. Again, thats the reason why devs add so many rules and limitations, because players demand them. People psychologically crave rules and limitations, so long as they benefit from them. The devs only start 'nuking everything that made the game fun' because people complained about it. Players demanded the changes. And when people pay for something, they will demand even more than if it was something free because they feel if they are paying a subscription fee, they are entitled to play without fear of being ganked, fear of being kept out of all the good content, etc.

As for where did I get my facts? Look at any MMO Message board. You will see people crying nerf, calling for changes, complaining about mechanics. And take notice the posters names who are crying for these changes, because more times than not, they will be the ones complaining about the chages in the end when it affects them.

Most people I knew on runescape were only f2p nonmembers for a very short time.  All of my 600 player clan were paying players. Those players are looking for a new mmo because they had a lot of bad updates that took away all the player freedoms.   Everyone I know that played and has now quit because of the bad dev decisions could care less if it is browser based or not. There are ways to "fix" the things that players complain about without killing the good content, just usually they go for the "quick fix" instead of working out a better one.  Considering that most people who play these games are over 18 they need to stop catering to the kiddies who whine about everything and propose stupid ideas.  There are good and bad ideas, and yes some limitations are necessary, just the amount of limitations being put into these games make it  not feel like you are relaxing and playing a game, more like you are sitting through a church service. The trade limitations, removal of gambling, and removal of the pvp anything goes zones in runescape are the largest contributing factor that the PAYING MEMBERS are looking for other games to play for years. I think that people initially found the game because it was a browswer based and had a free section, but they kept playing it because of it's content. why not look at the actual posts in their forums before making a poor assessment of the game.

It's not just MMO games, but any in general. Its rushing a game out before its even ready.

The problem with MMORPG's that they really aren't RGP's.  If you thjink about itwhat made RPGing fun was the interaction with the NPC's an getting them to give you info, items and quests.  Now, before you say they do that, think about this.  What we get is a watered down version of roleplaying, not true roleplaying.  The NPC's never say anything different or surprising or even react to what kind of person you are.  We should have consequences when we do some good, bad or indifferent.  We should have a reputation meter that govern how we will be received by NPC's.  I know it would be costly to use actual people, but just imagine a totally immersive world where the NPC's were actual people.  They could give misinformation, they could react to the way the person is acting towards them.  It would make the replay value tremendous.  Even if we can't have the ideal world we should play in something close to it.  Move away from the old "RPG" style of gaming and do something innovative.

there all the same..................................?

Originally posted by deviliscious

Most people I knew on runescape were only f2p nonmembers for a very short time.  All of my 600 player clan were paying players. Those players are looking for a new mmo because they had a lot of bad updates that took away all the player freedoms.   Everyone I know that played and has now quit because of the bad dev decisions could care less if it is browser based or not. There are ways to "fix" the things that players complain about without killing the good content, just usually they go for the "quick fix" instead of working out a better one.  Considering that most people who play these games are over 18 they need to stop catering to the kiddies who whine about everything and propose stupid ideas.  There are good and bad ideas, and yes some limitations are necessary, just the amount of limitations being put into these games make it  not feel like you are relaxing and playing a game, more like you are sitting through a church service. The trade limitations, removal of gambling, and removal of the pvp anything goes zones in runescape are the largest contributing factor that the PAYING MEMBERS are looking for other games to play for years. I think that people initially found the game because it was a browswer based and had a free section, but they kept playing it because of it's content. why not look at the actual posts in their forums before making a poor assessment of the game.

The companies that make the games give into these cries/whines/demands because they fear losing players, which cost them revenue, be it through subscriptions or advertising. Look at WoW for example. In thier quest to have the largest sub base, Blizzard is constantly changing things back and fourth. Every patch brings another nerf to one class and a boost to another, nerf to one rule, adjustment to another. They know that as long as they flip flop as much as possible, they will retain more subs.

SWG is an extreme opposite. They didn't listen to anything the players said and released the NGE. Sure they might have attracted a few new subs, but a majority of the players were left reeling from the kick to the groin that SOE/LA dealt them.

a lot,I'll go so far as to say most,companies don't want a "piece of the pie" they want the whole damn thing.And to try and get it the put in what they think is something for everyone

 There is no be all end all game,Never has been and never will be,and the harder they try to make it the worse it seems to get.

 Most if not all that are out or coming out aren't mmorpg's, they are mmog's,They have taken the depth of a rpg out to try and get more people,It worked for one game,and the rest seemed to fall inline behind it.

 It pretty much boils down to greed.Case in point..The old standby to point out and bitch about,SWG, SOE/LA weren't satisfied with appox 28 million dollars a year profit,they wanted more,much,much more.And ended up with a lot less.

I don't think we're going to see much if any improvement  until companies start going for a "piece of the pie" instead of all of it.

Interfaces could use some work in general I think. Often they are very static and generally overlooked. I haven't tried it and I know it may cause a digression but I've heard that WoW actually has a much more flexible system in place than is the norm. That is probably a good idea, I don't think that any static design is going to be able to present what is necessary while staying clean and intuitive.

Game system complexity for the classic MMORPG style gameplay could stand to be punched up several notches, in my opinion. I liked the number crunching in Anarchy Online, though it has a disagreeable amount of deliberate obfuscation (no markers on the agg/def bar, no real explanation of its impact) which ought to be done away with in future titles of similar complexity.

I think the writing and visual impact along important plot lines (when a game has them) needs to be improved. I often feel much more involved with single player games than with MMORPGs. Even in first person shooters (possibly because of the reliance on the first person perspective). Downtrodden masses in Half Life 2 feel more downtrodden (until they become rebels anyway). Soldiers in Call of Duty feel more like soldiers. The KOTORs were also more involving in my opinion, just to add an RPG to the mix.

A recent example for me was Tabula Rasa. The premise is that the Earth is destroyed, from what I gathered. The Earth is Destroyed. The human NPCs seem to regard this is a minor setback and fully intend to open a Costco-Sized can of whup-ass on the badguys. If anything, they remind me more of various video game incarnations of Omaha beach.

Basically I think that MMORPGs lack the visual and emotional atmosphere of a quality single player game for the most part. I don't know if its the floating camera angle or the necessity of minimizing voice over, or the preponderance of quests/mobs-to-kill, or what. That seems like an edge in the current market to me though.

Another facet that I think bears investigation for many newer games I've tried is the lack of even small diversions from the main thrust of the game. This doesn't have to be big, except with the possible exception of crafting, it just needs to be a step out of the usual. In fact, with respect to things like exploration they should be mostly without reinforcement or powerful rewards. TR and SOTNW did not have enough side achievements or minigames or whatever you want to call them for me to stick with them. The somewhat new ways of killing things felt like the only activities available.