General Discussion

'X MMO is X clone!' For the past 2-3 years we've heard those words in SO many combinations, and why the heck does anyone bitch about it?

The latest on the copping block of assumtions is WAR, it looks like WoW so it must be WoW2? Quite frankly if you look at any game to be that 'WoW2' from a gameplay standpoint it's actally LOTRO and AoC, but either way why the heck does it matter? They are all games in this case MMOs, yet it seems to be the only genre players throw a hissy fit over when something is if even very remotly the same.

Put it this way, a lot of players last year ran to the shops to get Halo 3 and then did the same thing a few months later with CoD4, except for the setting and story , they practically bought the same game twice and yet were they any 'OMG CoD is a clone of Halo' comments...? GT and PG, they have cars and tracks and yet no clone complains there, C&C, DoW and COH.. nout.. even Sonic and Mario both level runnig platforms yet not a word?

Yet when a game does for example pvp based on factions of two sides or instanced PVP or PVE in a MMO it's 'OMG SUE THEM FOR COPYWRITING IT SHOULD BE ONLY IN THE ONE GAME!!!!!!' What makes MMOs different to any other game genre out there? It's the only thing that seems to 'matter' then anything to some people and yet completly ignored in other areas doing the same thing... complete ilogical

Originally posted by Kremlik

'X MMO is X clone!' For the past 2-3 years we've heard those words in SO many combinations, and why the heck does anyone bitch about it?

The latest on the copping block of assumtions is WAR, it looks like WoW so it must be WoW2? Quite frankly if you look at any game to be that 'WoW2' from a gameplay standpoint it's actally LOTRO and AoC, but either way why the heck does it matter? They are all games in this case MMOs, yet it seems to be the only genre players throw a hissy fit over when something is if even very remotly the same.

Put it this way, a lot of players last year ran to the shops to get Halo 3 and then did the same thing a few months later with CoD4, except for the setting and story , they practically bought the same game twice and yet were they any 'OMG CoD is a clone of Halo' comments...? GT and PG, they have cars and tracks and yet no clone complains there, C&C, DoW and COH.. nout.. even Sonic and Mario both level runnig platforms yet not a word?

Yet when a game does for example pvp based on factions of two sides or instanced PVP or PVE in a MMO it's 'OMG SUE THEM FOR COPYWRITING IT SHOULD BE ONLY IN THE ONE GAME!!!!!!' What makes MMOs different to any other game genre out there? It's the only thing that seems to 'matter' then anything to some people and yet completly ignored in other areas doing the same thing... complete ilogical

1. Because only in MMORPGs do people spend years developing a character.

2. Because only the MMORPG genre releases so few games in a particular year.

Those are the two obvious reasons people compare one MMORPG to the next. If a person spends 2-3 yrs playing one game, why wouldn't they get upset if the next best thing is exactly what they've been playing for the past 2-3 yrs? Instead of playing the next best thing, they are better off playing the character they invested 2-3 yrs in. I agree in that the way people compare games on this site is annoying, but comparing games to one another, especially in this genre is understandable.

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

I'm not one of these people you are talking about, but I am intelligent enough to answer this.

 

1. Because only in MMORPGs do people spend years developing a character.

2. Because only the MMORPG genre releases so few games in a particular year.

Those are the two obvious reasons people compare one MMORPG to the next. If a person spends 2-3 yrs playing one game, why wouldn't they get upset if the next best thing is exactly what they've been playing for the past 2-3 yrs? Instead of playing the next best thing, they are better off playing the character they invested 2-3 yrs in. I agree in that the way people compare games on this site is annoying, but comparing games to one another, especially in this genre is understandable.

QFT.

See, let's add to the example.  I don't PvP, no matter what.  No game on the left is free from PvP influences*, and about half of them doesn't even allow you to PvE freely on top of shafting the design for PvP considerations.

So, this year...let's check the incoming MMOs...

WAR: Completely shaft PvE in soo many ways, just stay clear.

AoC: See WAR above.

Aion: Most likely shaft PvE, but even if not, PvP will change the rules for PvE.

Stargate: Maybe PvE will be fine, but again, PvP will change the rules for PvE.  Also, will be an ACTION game, might be a bonus for many...but for RPGers...dunno.

So what are a PvE player option?  To drop the genre until an intelligent MMO consider PvE rightly.  And if on top of that the PvE player is sick of raiding?  Sick of Nerfs and rules change in the middle of a "season"?

*EQ has more PvP servers rulesets than any PvE, WTF?  A PvE game should have MORE PvE variations than PvP variations...we need the servers with unique rules variation all in PvE

Originally posted by Anofalye

 

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

I'm not one of these people you are talking about, but I am intelligent enough to answer this.

 

1. Because only in MMORPGs do people spend years developing a character.

2. Because only the MMORPG genre releases so few games in a particular year.

Those are the two obvious reasons people compare one MMORPG to the next. If a person spends 2-3 yrs playing one game, why wouldn't they get upset if the next best thing is exactly what they've been playing for the past 2-3 yrs? Instead of playing the next best thing, they are better off playing the character they invested 2-3 yrs in. I agree in that the way people compare games on this site is annoying, but comparing games to one another, especially in this genre is understandable.

 

QFT.

 

See, let's add to the example.  I don't PvP, no matter what.  No game on the left is free from PvP influences*, and about half of them doesn't even allow you to PvE freely on top of shafting the design for PvP considerations.

 

So, this year...let's check the incoming MMOs...

 

WAR: Completely shaft PvE in soo many ways, just stay clear.

AoC: See WAR above.

Aion: Most likely shaft PvE, but even if not, PvP will change the rules for PvE.

Stargate: Maybe PvE will be fine, but again, PvP will change the rules for PvE.  Also, will be an ACTION game, might be a bonus for many...but for RPGers...dunno.

 

So what are a PvE player option?  To drop the genre until an intelligent MMO consider PvE rightly.  And if on top of that the PvE player is sick of raiding?  Sick of Nerfs and rules change in the middle of a "season"?

 

*EQ has more PvP servers rulesets than any PvE, WTF?  A PvE game should have MORE PvE variations than PvP variations...we need the servers with unique rules variation all in PvE

Get thee to LoTRO.

Originally posted by Anofalye

QFT.

 

See, let's add to the example.  I don't PvP, no matter what.  No game on the left is free from PvP influences*, and about half of them doesn't even allow you to PvE freely on top of shafting the design for PvP considerations.

Going WAY offtopic here (because this is a 'why' topic more that 'what') but have you ever considered that a GOOD PVP system actally provides more social apsects then the currently PVE heavy games? Atm currently everyone is closed inwards with their guilds only, not interacting with others outside of it as to them it doesn't further them forward into better raiding situations, where as take EVE for example that requires alliences, trades etc etc, oside your own corp so there always interaction, TBH the best 'interaction' I've seen in the top three PVE titles (WoW/EQ/LOTRO) bar the PVP is the LFG channel, the whole point of MMOs is community and social contacts, in which solely PVE driven games it's very lack atm. Yes you may not like PVP but  it is required otherwise a MMO might as well be a singleplayer game with multiplayer servers for the instancing

 

So, this year...let's check the incoming MMOs...

 

WAR: Completely shaft PvE in soo many ways, just stay clear.

Actally it doesn't, in fact it supports PVE quite well by fixing a lot of the problems praguing it, such as the quest system actally allowing for you to obtain quest items without having to kill 100s of mobs just for 10 items, in fact it even rewards you with a quest item even if you DON'T have the quests yet... The prize (aka Christmas) quests reward you for exploration with unmarked NPCs rewarding you just for finding them, hell even the Tomb of Knowleage rewars you for reading about the Warhammer lore none of that requires any PVP at all to do. The ONLY thing imo that 'gets the shaft' in WAR is  the current style of raiding with the public quest system it's more open invertational events then it would be the 'norm' of finding a guild, getting a group of the 'correct' classes, turning up on time... etc etc, it's just drop in and enjoy, unless you think raiding IS pve then well ...meh but yet again I must say RVR is no way means 'only PVP'

AoC: See WAR above.

For this I'd say the same: See above, theres pently of PVE within AoC as well, hell the first 20 levels in just pure RPG for you, in fact like  I said it the orginal post 'end game' is more like WoW's with a lot of focus on the PVE tiered raiding side. Plus crafting is the key element for both pvp AND pve, in fact  the only way PVP is involed is defence of the top end  resource points from the looks of things, thats the only 'shafting' pvp does in AoC to pve which could be easily worked around by just going to an AH instead

Aion: Most likely shaft PvE, but even if not, PvP will change the rules for PvE.

From whats been said about Aion I can't really say either way however it looks more like how TR works with mobs getting involed with the point capturing if there is any. This is the only game that I'm unsure what will happen with the effects.

Stargate: Maybe PvE will be fine, but again, PvP will change the rules for PvE.  Also, will be an ACTION game, might be a bonus for many...but for RPGers...dunno.

 Faction control of planets possbily but how that screws over pvp is anyones guess

So what are a PvE player option?  To drop the genre until an intelligent MMO consider PvE rightly.  And if on top of that the PvE player is sick of raiding?  Sick of Nerfs and rules change in the middle of a "season"?

 There has always been and always will be 'nerfs' and 'buffs' in MMOs, even if there wasn't PVP in the game at all, it will still happen, it normally happens when players exploit a class/power to the point it's meaningless, it's not always PVP related, it's a player nature to take every advantage they can find.  There has been raiding in some form, you gain all these levels and skills for what if there is no 'big thing' to look forward to? thats the meaning of the game why did you bother gaining all the power to sit around doing nothing with it? The only two things I can surguest is find a good eccomery and trade and do that then be a crafter, heck EVEs good on that, or you could just not play a MMO

*EQ has more PvP servers rulesets than any PvE, WTF?  A PvE game should have MORE PvE variations than PvP variations...we need the servers with unique rules variation all in PvE

Originally posted by JK-Kanosi

 

Originally posted by Kremlik

'X MMO is X clone!' For the past 2-3 years we've heard those words in SO many combinations, and why the heck does anyone bitch about it?

The latest on the copping block of assumtions is WAR, it looks like WoW so it must be WoW2? Quite frankly if you look at any game to be that 'WoW2' from a gameplay standpoint it's actally LOTRO and AoC, but either way why the heck does it matter? They are all games in this case MMOs, yet it seems to be the only genre players throw a hissy fit over when something is if even very remotly the same.

Put it this way, a lot of players last year ran to the shops to get Halo 3 and then did the same thing a few months later with CoD4, except for the setting and story , they practically bought the same game twice and yet were they any 'OMG CoD is a clone of Halo' comments...? GT and PG, they have cars and tracks and yet no clone complains there, C&C, DoW and COH.. nout.. even Sonic and Mario both level runnig platforms yet not a word?

Yet when a game does for example pvp based on factions of two sides or instanced PVP or PVE in a MMO it's 'OMG SUE THEM FOR COPYWRITING IT SHOULD BE ONLY IN THE ONE GAME!!!!!!' What makes MMOs different to any other game genre out there? It's the only thing that seems to 'matter' then anything to some people and yet completly ignored in other areas doing the same thing... complete ilogical

I'm not one of these people you are talking about, but I am intelligent enough to answer this.

 

1. Because only in MMORPGs do people spend years developing a character.

2. Because only the MMORPG genre releases so few games in a particular year.

Those are the two obvious reasons people compare one MMORPG to the next. If a person spends 2-3 yrs playing one game, why wouldn't they get upset if the next best thing is exactly what they've been playing for the past 2-3 yrs? Instead of playing the next best thing, they are better off playing the character they invested 2-3 yrs in. I agree in that the way people compare games on this site is annoying, but comparing games to one another, especially in this genre is understandable.

Surely complaining that X new game out is the same as your is kinda pointless considering your game will still continue as in the MMO world very few MMOs that have been successful and havn't been screwed up by the devs in that game itself have continued on,

If you look at it there hasn't been one MMO yet thats been a success that has closed due to losing subs to another game simular as UO, AO and EQ1 have proved that be still being active after all this time, yes they will  close in time however successful MMOS will have a very long and good run. They only 'fear of closing' a player should have is how the game is handled by it's own devs and not the release of a new title

Well, I've learned that almost every MMORPG plays like the other. The only real reason I could see to switch to a new game is if you've done absolutely everything in the last game that you found enjoyable and just want something new and just like it OR you are either new to the genre or have never experienced release day of a MMORPG and want to get into a MMORPG at ground floor.

The only game that I have been there for release day is DDO and that was fun. The reason I didn't stick with the game is because it wasn't true to its genre.

Another poster here spoke about no MMORPGs really catering to the PvE player. I can agree somewhat with her, because a completely PvE centric game, without any PvP in it would not need class balancing, which is not fun for most people. Doesn't it make sense that a Wizard can ruin a melee character, for example? I actually liked DAoC's Cooperative server, because it was a new twist on PvE that still hasn't been realized since then. All 3 realms were able to play with one another and do all of the normal PvE stuff, in addition, they also were able to fight NPC's for the castles and towers they were controlling for realm points and relics. Those castles and towers were PvP areas on normal servers, but the Coop server didn't have PvP, so they were converted to NPC controlled territories. People on that server had a blast in a pure PvE setting. No one complained about one class being overpowered, because it didn't matter. People weren't booted out of a group for another class like other games in the genre. There were 40+ classes to choose from too.

I think the game needs a pure PvP game just like it needs a pure PvE game, because one requires balancing classes while another really doesn't.