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Originally posted by Evilsam

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Originally posted by Phoenix22

    I could only wish.  In today's PvP oriented games balance is most important. The old AC system for character creation made YOU make the choice.  Developers didnt have to worry about "balancing a class" instead if your class was gimped then it was your fault.
    There were never any 2 characters alike.  even in the cookie cutter builds you had to alocate your own points to raise the skill. everyone did this differently depending on what area they wanted to eccel in more or evenly to use all equally.
   I honestly miss those days and would give alot to see another game try this out. But as one poster put it "The new generation of MMO players want an EZ mode game" basicly where most of the decisions are left to the developers and not to the players so if anything goes wrong the players dont have to take the responsibility upon themselves.
   But imagine a game world where your character is truely YOUR character. your complete decisions make this character, you can run into a simalar character and still know that your unique. Do you want ot be a offensive caster that can use stealth?  its your decision, how about a tank that can heal/buff himself? you can do it. but the balance comes into play when you decide which skills to level. As in the first example you may want to make your stealth more viable, but to do so you will have to sacrifice raising your magic ability. or vice verse you will have more powerfull magic at the cost of your stealth being weak and inviable...Or of course you can just blance the two out and  not be really strong in one area  etc...
 
 
Anyway  ( I'm rambling now) I really hope to see this system eventually make its way into a Game.  Preferably a game with PvP in it.  Of course having the ability to "respec" you character is alwayse there. Im tired of having to Raid for days/months to get decent gear to make my character stronger. I want to make my character strong by making the right decisions with a slight boost from gear.
 
 

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What usualy screws up most skill based games,and actually just most games, is balance and pvp.95% of the time you see the word ,balance, it's while referencing pvp.There is basicaly only one one way to truly balance pvp.Have only one char per person,pre-made,maxed out with exactly the same stats,same weapons,and same gear,with computer controled speed and reflex actions,any devation and it isn't "balanced"..what fun

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hm, think I misread this one

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Originally posted by Phoenix22
    I could only wish.  In today's PvP oriented games balance is most important. The old AC system for character creation made YOU make the choice.  Developers didnt have to worry about "balancing a class" instead if your class was gimped then it was your fault.
    There were never any 2 characters alike.  even in the cookie cutter builds you had to alocate your own points to raise the skill. everyone did this differently depending on what area they wanted to eccel in more or evenly to use all equally.
   I honestly miss those days and would give alot to see another game try this out. But as one poster put it "The new generation of MMO players want an EZ mode game" basicly where most of the decisions are left to the developers and not to the players so if anything goes wrong the players dont have to take the responsibility upon themselves.
    
 

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Yeah I agree I think a lot of developers are trying to get access to the non-RPG crowd (mainstream) as you said here. I dont think they are overly concerned with balance per se but rather want to keep things simple for the masses. I've noticed a lot of these newer rpgs are taking no chances at all. You have markings on your map where to go during a quest, etc. It's really amazing how user friendly these mmorpgs are....

Originally posted by Symone

Every hyped MMO coming out is going to be skill/talent/spell etc based, put points into this or that pre defined skill.

I sorrily miss the char creation back in old AC 1 where everyone had to make their own choices on where to put their stats, and it was possible to completely gimp your character. Sure there were cookie cutter builds of the week going on, but someone was always trying something new to improve and become the next best thing! I loved that!

 

I wish one of these games would just take the risk, sure I realise balancing these games would be hard,  but in the end I think players would find balance themselves by figuring out what works for them.

 

Give us a stew of stats, skills, powers, etc to use to build our characters! I also enjoyed AO because it let me do this to some extent, and twinking out your character was half the fun of the game.

 

I am just so sick of skill based talent point crap thats out and will be coming out. it bores me to tears to gain a point every level and put it into this or that. Why is every freaking new MMO game going tis way?

 

Wanna know why they dont do this anymore... .Whats the fun in doing all this stat crap if you dont understand what stats to up on  a certain kind of class and all you do is gimp yourself.... how is that any fun... its not  plain and simple

Originally posted by Scottc

Well you see....  The new generation of MMORPG gamers are extremely stupid and they like their games on easy mode.  Even though the Asheron's Call character creation is simple, i'm sure the tards who play WoW wouldn't be able to figure it out anyway.

Even if I am ABLE to figure it out, it does not mean that I *want* to spend the time to do so. Playing a game should not be like doing work. It should be fun & easy.

I don't see a problem in making it easy enough so people can ENJOY the process, rather than stressing about it.

Playing a game is about consuming content. And anything in between the player and the content is a barrier.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Originally posted by Scottc

Well you see....  The new generation of MMORPG gamers are extremely stupid and they like their games on easy mode.  Even though the Asheron's Call character creation is simple, i'm sure the tards who play WoW wouldn't be able to figure it out anyway.

 

Even if I am ABLE to figure it out, it does not mean that I *want* to spend the time to do so. Playing a game should not be like doing work. It should be fun & easy.

I don't see a problem in making it easy enough so people can ENJOY the process, rather than stressing about it.

Playing a game is about consuming content. And anything in between the player and the content is a barrier.

Stats and Skills doesnt mean over complicated...

Originally posted by LordRelic

Originally posted by Symone

Every hyped MMO coming out is going to be skill/talent/spell etc based, put points into this or that pre defined skill.

I sorrily miss the char creation back in old AC 1 where everyone had to make their own choices on where to put their stats, and it was possible to completely gimp your character. Sure there were cookie cutter builds of the week going on, but someone was always trying something new to improve and become the next best thing! I loved that!

 

I wish one of these games would just take the risk, sure I realise balancing these games would be hard,  but in the end I think players would find balance themselves by figuring out what works for them.

 

Give us a stew of stats, skills, powers, etc to use to build our characters! I also enjoyed AO because it let me do this to some extent, and twinking out your character was half the fun of the game.

 

I am just so sick of skill based talent point crap thats out and will be coming out. it bores me to tears to gain a point every level and put it into this or that. Why is every freaking new MMO game going tis way?

 

Wanna know why they dont do this anymore... .Whats the fun in doing all this stat crap if you dont understand what stats to up on  a certain kind of class and all you do is gimp yourself.... how is that any fun... its not  plain and simple

If your a mage and dump all your stats into endurance for more hp, while another guy dumps his into int for mana... your not gimped over him, he just can cast more spells, you can take more hits.

Originally posted by Scottc

Well you see....  The new generation of MMORPG gamers are extremely stupid and they like their games on easy mode.  Even though the Asheron's Call character creation is simple, i'm sure the tards who play WoW wouldn't be able to figure it out anyway.

I play WOW and I loved the stat system in EQ, and you calling me a tard? Maybe you should take a look in the mirror.

I agree... not all wow players are prepubescent idiots... but a lot of them are.

Basically  a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.

Originally posted by Evilsam

Basically  a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.

Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by Evilsam

Basically  a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.

Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...

But thats hypohthetical fantasy land.  In the end, it ALWAYS comes down to only a few viable builds.  UO, AC, Eve.  There are templates that are far superior to all the others.  In the end, class based games have more viable choices because every class can be played.  In UO and AC there were maybe 2 or 3 useful templates and everything else was strictly for RP.   In Eve anything is viable, because if you're in a fleet of 100 and you're plnking away with rockets, you're technically doing "something".  That kind of contribution doesn't exactly count as fun in other MMOs.  Eve's level of balance is the same as a lvl 10 doing 2 pts damage to a level 70 in WOW.

Of course you could say, "make all you choices viable".  I can say I want to win the lottery every day as well.  Its not happening=)

Why does it has to be determined by the devs that you have points to allocated or none?

Gah, I rather get rid of a few designers and get a few more programmer so some servers have the package deal stuff where you don't have stats to allocated...and some servers are allowing you some measure of freedom in allocating your stats instead of having something pre-determined.

Freedom is cool.  If the casuals want everything chewed for them and not be shafted, make a casual server and normal server.

MMOs lack choice, no matter what they say.  PvP this, RvR here, Raid that...what if differents servers offer different options?  I am tired of devs who say: All servers are like that.  Okay champion, what about having not 2 servers with the same rules at release and then expand the popular ones?  Give the choices to the players.

Don't care if the devs think this or that, give the freaking choice to the players.  They will play on the servers they want.  And if nobody pick the RvR or Raiding server, well, just take that as a lesson and focus on what they want.  Gah.   These devs forget that, they are there to make money and offer choices to the players.  You want to beat WoW?  Offers MORE choice, not less (hint hint at most "new releases" that won't even offer 3 VERY different setting).

Originally posted by Josher

 

Originally posted by Pyrostasis

Originally posted by Evilsam

Basically  a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.

Yep and thats the beauty of skill based games, you have hundreds and hundreds of different combinations, not just cleric, melee, nuker...

 

But thats hypohthetical fantasy land.  In the end, it ALWAYS comes down to only a few viable builds.  UO, AC, Eve.  There are templates that are far superior to all the others.  In the end, class based games have more viable choices because every class can be played.  In UO and AC there were maybe 2 or 3 useful templates and everything else was strictly for RP.   In Eve anything is viable, because if you're in a fleet of 100 and you're plnking away with rockets, you're technically doing "something".  That kind of contribution doesn't exactly count as fun in other MMOs.  Eve's level of balance is the same as a lvl 10 doing 2 pts damage to a level 70 in WOW.

Of course you could say, "make all you choices viable".  I can say I want to win the lottery every day as well.  Its not happening=)

As for eve... your rather uninformed...

I NEVER met one person that had remotely the sdame build as me in EVE Online. Whoever is spreading this is purely misinformed I promise you that

Sure there are recommended 'skills' you should pickup but you also have ship configuration, modules, implants, etc that all contribute to unique setups. And of course, our builds never matchup because certain skills might be must-have for your race true- but the vast majority of skills are simply what you find useful

And the beauty is if a 'skill' because too must-have and it gets nerfed- we all get nerfed. So no one is disadvantaged after a developer sweep. We all remain viable, never gimped. With time, any build can become viable

In a Class based game you Live with the Developers decisions and you can only reroll, losing countless hours invested into an avatar. Granted, Blizzard never seemed to make this sort of bad judgement but other not-so-wise developers have made questionable decisions. Skill-based systems give gamers fine control over their development. 'Static' Class based games are great for just jumping in and playing (thus more mainstream-y).

MMORPGs are about pulling in non-rpg veterans so Classes are just a simple fast solution. But I suspect we'll see more complex character development options as the market becomes a lot more saturated

Originally posted by Evilsam

Basically  a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.

That is assuming the skills are balanced and interesting. It is 10x harder to do it in a skill-based system because it is difficult to predict how players will pick up their skills.

And in a class system, you can always choose which class to follow. For example, in WOW, there are 9 classes (10 soon) x 3 talent trees = 30 base path. There are variations (for example, there are at least 2-3 good fire spec for mage), and then you can take up diff professions.

While it is not infinite, the number of combinations are quite large.

So I don't think variability is the key diff. In fact, that boils down to how much ability content the developer can create. The only difference is that a class LOCKS a char into a certain set of paths.

That is not a problem if grinding up a char is not a lot of work. Instead of switching skills, you just switch class and play another char.

I still think Guild Wars trumps with their idea of how to run a class based system. A pick ur poison, build a deck magic the gathering style with a dump into an attribute pool to make the deck stronger. Couple that with over a thousand skills and bam, a very nice system.

It's class based but built around hybrid play.

New builds, very viable builds are found everyday. Granted they said that in GW2 that the scope would be toned down (which I personally think is a mistake..but hey, it's not my game), but for now that system was/is done well imo. Too bad I wanted a non instanced world and a tad better community or I would still play it religiously.

Devs choose the route of class based systems for imo one very simple/practical reason, it's easier to balance.

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Originally posted by gestalt11
If you do this everyone complains about balance.

The two major names coming out are PvP titles so its not that surprising they went for classes.

However I will say I think they are kind of copping out. Although Guild Wars probably is a game that you do not believe fits your archetype. It actually does do so even though there are classes. GW has over 1000 abilites each with their own stats and you can cusomize your abilites with each one via your attributes, which are essentially analogous to skill points. Each class has on average over 100 abilities and everyone can have 2 classes so you can have somewhere between 200-300 abilities to choose from. There are no restrictions in class combinations.
GW lets you build a character in a very similar way to the systems you describe. Whether people like the progression model is irrelevant for this disucssion. The point is that you do not need a UO skill style game to accomplish roughly the same thing. Afterall putting points into skill just gives you abilities anyway.

The reason i mention this is because of the balance thing. GW is a very well balanced PvP game. This is because they came up with a meta-system then created all their abilities to make the real system. They have interrupts and enchantments and enchantment removal and hexes and each type is designed to perform a certain way.
When GW creates a class the only balance concern they need to worry about is whether the abilities do what is intended for that class and that certain undesirable phenomenon like tank-mages are either not possible or have a weakness (like relying on enchantments).


So in other words you won't see this type of system start to pop up again until games start balancing the way Guild Wars, via a comprehensive ability design using a meta system, does instead of the way WoW does, via class and role.
This won't happen anytime soon. Most designers do not have the ability for elegance that Anet or CCP do. Its much easier for them to cobble things together into classes and call it done.

Its the same reason many programmers use iterative Loops instead of recursion even though sometimes the recursion is a far more elegant solution. Its just easier to think about and grab a hold of with your mind. The funny thing is they convince themselves this makes class based balanced easier to do, because its a simple model. But actually its a model with many unseen holes and is thus much harder to balance than Guild War's style balancing.
The class balance model requires a complete reanalysis of everything everytime any change is made. The Guild Wars system does not. That is one of the reasons it is superior for an MMORPG. However this fact is not generally fully understood or taken into consideration and usually the apparent simplness of of the class based model wins people over. Its a sort of misidentification of the KISS principle. They are keeping the wrong part simple.

They think by keeping the classes simple balance will be simple, but then they just keeping running into the problems of cascading changes and strange interactions because they did not actually design systematically.

So you are screwed until this becomes obvious to the slacker monkey part of their brains. I don't say that pejoratively, laziness is important for designers. It is your motivation for doing things right. But at the same time it can be very simplistic and its not until you get hit of the head enough with the problems of the two approaches that you sort of begrudingly say "OK lets try it this way, because that other way was too much of a night mare."

Right now the skilled based people are the victim of completely awful balance, well really complete lack of balance, that existed in games like UO. The designers saw this knew it was bad, heard the complaints and knew it hurt their bottom line. They then looked at how to control those system better and just saw a complete mess and ran as fast as they could to what appears to be the easy solution: classes.

They are now in the process of realizing class balance, while offering some improvments over no balance at all, is in fact a big hairball of wires that you have to untangle every frigging time. So while you can set up decent balance maintaining it is a gigantic pain. And you will need to do some maintainence because there is no way you do it perfect the first time and things change anyway.

The next step will be getting past the idea that class are a necessary evil and there is no other solution. Over the next few you will see that mantra repeated over and over. It already is. Then a few attentive designers will realize the whole thing is already solved in GW and that emulating them will actually give them and the players more freedom and make balance easier to maintain.

So you are screwed for I dunno like 5 years or until Guild Wars 2 comes out. Or you can play Eve. Or maybe that World of Darkness MMO CCP is supposedly making. Otherwise you are screwed for a while because it will take them a while to move to a more comprehensive and elegant balance system and that is what drives all this. Well also the robot like reliance on class roles messes with their thinking too. But in the end they actually need to do the original design with no classes and put classes on top if they want roles, other wise they go back to their hairball.

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oh ok, I missed this post...yeah, i agree

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by Evilsam

Basically  a skill based game lets you make and progress a char the way you want to.A class based system lets you create and progress a char along predefined paths.

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That is assuming the skills are balanced and interesting. It is 10x harder to do it in a skill-based system because it is difficult to predict how players will pick up their skills.
And in a class system, you can always choose which class to follow. For example, in WOW, there are 9 classes (10 soon) x 3 talent trees = 30 base path.

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World of Warcraft forums has always had more Class/PVP balance complaints more then EVE Online (boundless skill-based system)

This is the thing- in Class based mmorpgs players get jealous / envious of other Classes, talent trees, etc

Being a Shaman in pre-TBC, I can tesitfy our forums were aflame with balance complaints. I'm sure this still goes on- perhaps for Warlocks or Hunters these days

In a skill-based mmorpg where everything is 'boundless' (no skill cap, limitless potential), this is just not as large of an issue. Not to the extent surely you see an entire forum aflame

In City of Heroes we saw Flavor-of-the-month a lot. Which was GREAT, players were discovering new builds and tactical options.

But then on Villain side there was no FoTM. Ice primary reigned supreme and it made the game very boring. Sure, they had all these other Classes but it was useless when only 1 or 2 combos reigned supreme and all others were drastically inferior on a mathematical level

Yeah but these stat games at least in PVP are exactly like having talents, its just numbers you use.

You cant just put points any which way or you'll die constantly hence cookie cutters.

If you want to use a 2 hander you max out STR, if you want dual wields you max out DEX and AGI or whatever.

So tell me whats the difference in that and a talent that makes you better with a 2 hand or dual wielding?

There isnt. Either way you put points in something you have to have, hence its nowhere near as customizable as you make it out to be.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Even if I am ABLE to figure it out, it does not mean that I *want* to spend the time to do so. Playing a game should not be like doing work. It should be fun & easy.

I don't see a problem in making it easy enough so people can ENJOY the process, rather than stressing about it.

Playing a game is about consuming content. And anything in between the player and the content is a barrier.

EPIC FAIL.

Allowing someone to create a custom character that has their own advantages and disadvantages adds an inconceivable amount of content to a game. There is no 'stress' involved in building a character if the game allows for mistakes (paid resets, etc...). Not everyone wants a cookie-cutter MMO that plays like a FPS. Custom built characters add infinite diversity and strategy to a game.

The only flaw with such a detailed character system lies within the stupidity of the average gamer.

Originally posted by neosapience

 

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Even if I am ABLE to figure it out, it does not mean that I *want* to spend the time to do so. Playing a game should not be like doing work. It should be fun & easy.

I don't see a problem in making it easy enough so people can ENJOY the process, rather than stressing about it.

Playing a game is about consuming content. And anything in between the player and the content is a barrier.

 

 

EPIC FAIL.

 

Allowing someone to create a custom character that has their own advantages and disadvantages adds an inconceivable amount of content to a game. There is no 'stress' involved in building a character if the game allows for mistakes (paid resets, etc...). Not everyone wants a cookie-cutter MMO that plays like a FPS. Custom built characters add infinite diversity and strategy to a game.

 

The only flaw with such a detailed character system lies within the stupidity of the average gamer.

There is .. if I have to spend my precious play time to do trial and errors. Why do you think info sites for WOW is so popular? It is because running around searching for an NPC is not difficult, but boring.

Don't mix up time consuming with real difficulty. Solving a dynamic control problem in the context of a stochastic process is difficult. Trying out 200 variations and grinding for the gold to respec is NOT.

And LOL ... none of the MMORPGs play like a FPS. There is no aiming and no trigger happy gameplay.