Originally posted by 3on1

i dont like permadeath cause when i spend hundreds or more hours on a toon that can lose everything when he dies once then id piss my pants 24/7 :D

Don't you fell your accomplishments feel indifferent when you know there is no way of losing them? Even just a little bit?

Originally posted by Narian89

Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Do you people realize how stupid that would be!? In World of Warcraft, people die ALL the time. In a permadeath game, it would have to be designed in a way that it is really hard to die, unlike World of Warcraft, or it wouldn't work at all. Does anybody realize how lame this would be? What a boring game! Blizzard even made an april fool's about a permadeath in the new race "the wisp". That's because that's all permadeath is, a BIG JOKE!

In a game like wow perma death would not work at all. In a game with significantly simpler and quicker progression with a series of advancement based on certain milestones whether it be time alive, opponents killed or whatever it would work fine.

The main issue with permadeath as it stands atm is simply the fact that games now a days are not designed with permadeath as a functional part of the game. Even Diablo2 and Hellgate London are poor implementations.

I wont go over my ideas for perma death as I simply dont want my ideas ganked by some other developer, but there are ways to do perma death.

That's the point, a game would have to be designed in such a way that many people wouldn't find it fun at all, including a lot of you. And for those of you that do like it, after you put a ton of work into your character and have everything, then die and lose him, lets see how you feel about permadeath then. All I have to say is I told you so, and don't come crying to me.

While I'm totally against permadeath, I'm completely for more death penalties.

Ex: Break armor, drop items, gold, etc. Lose experiece, delevel. PvP Full Looting.

But permadeath? LOL! That's all I can even say to that.

{ Mod Edit }

Originally posted by Narian89

That's the point, a game would have to be designed in such a way that many people wouldn't find it fun at all, including a lot of you. And for those of you that do like it, after you put a ton of work into your character and have everything, then die and lose him, lets see how you feel about permadeath then. All I have to say is I told you so, and don't come crying to me.

 

While I'm totally against permadeath, I'm completely for more death penalties.

Ex: Break armor, drop items, gold, etc. Lose experiece, delevel. PvP Full Looting.

 

But permadeath? LOL! That's all I can even say to that.

I've played permadeath versions of varous games, and liked it. Did you ever try HC in Diablo 2? That was very well implemented in my opinion. Its a niche genre, but who is to stop a dev from creating a permadeath server? I think it would be more popular than most people think.

Originally posted by ladyattis

 

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Originally posted by rovo
hehe, Perma-Death would be an OPTION on some different server. Once your guild dies off or something, just move to regular servers, its just there for another play option .

Also, it wouldn't really work for a full-time thing on level-based MMOs. They had one server in EQ for ~month, the highest levels got rewards on their main server characters (also got the characters that one transfered over). Just never would work full-time cause you will be able to just farm the competition once the higher levels got situated (level-based MMOs only).

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Yep, that's why those models for DPS will never work. But Perma-death by definition does not depend on those specified one dimensional DPS models to be fulfilled. Therefore, Perma-death is not stupid.

I find your logic very amusing.

Originally posted by Narian89

That's the point, a game would have to be designed in such a way that many people wouldn't find it fun at all, including a lot of you. And for those of you that do like it, after you put a ton of work into your character and have everything, then die and lose him, lets see how you feel about permadeath then. All I have to say is I told you so, and don't come crying to me.

 

While I'm totally against permadeath, I'm completely for more death penalties.

Ex: Break armor, drop items, gold, etc. Lose experiece, delevel. PvP Full Looting.

 

But permadeath? LOL! That's all I can even say to that.

 

{ Mod Edit }

Again totaly not true. Just because a game is designed with perma death doesnt mean its "not fun" I can think of two ways to implement perma death in such a way that folks would not be thrown off by it. See your still focused mainly on the "Ton" of work into your character.

Lets look at it from two different angles.

#1 What if it didnt take a ton of work to get your character set up. What if there were no levels and we focus mainly on a skill system type setup. You use skills you gain skill...simple. Obviously the longer your alive the higher your skill. Well... reduce time needed to use skill to get a increase. Skills area easily increased and while staying alive does give an advantage over dying... getting back to where you were isnt a huge ordeal.

Also, minimize the curve. Say you start off with a sword and you can hurt someone significantly with it. As you advance you become more effective against armor, and as you approach GM status your able to defeat someone in armor with ease.

Bob the newbie has 50 sword you have 100 sword. Bob is clumsy with his sword while you are a master. In wow's mechanics BoB has no chance against you. Your maxed, he's a 1 hit kill, barely a speed bump.

Change that system, so bob has a real chance to kill you if you make a mistake. One hit kills are removed, BoB may not be as good as you, but that doesnt mean he is a stick figure that can be squished. Give Bob a chance to fight back, while at a disadvantage it narrows the playing field. this restarting not as painful.

#2. Have a system setup where some of your wealth in items, property, components, and money transfers over. Instead of everything being wiped, just your character dies. Your worldly possesions dont. This gives you the ability to pick up where you left off. Thin of a father dying, and a son taking over his estate. Maybe setup some form of Tax system (similar to the beloved death tax) and your good to go.

What you need to realize is just beacuse WoW's current mechanics dont support a system with perma death doesnt mean permadeath isnt possible. Use your imagination and think outside the box.

This topic of permadeath in mmos is pretty much like beating on a very very old dead horse. Permadeath might work only in specific types of games (such as Hellgate London which has hardcore mode where your character has only 1 life and death is permanent) and general market consensus is that only very few players are willing to invest in a permadeath character (it can be said in examples like Hellgate london where regular characters outnumber permadeath characters 50 to 1). Most players who plays permadeath characters are hardcore players who have a lot of spare time in their hands to invest in the game and is considered a point of pride in reaching high levels with their characters without dying a single time.

I hear there is perma-death in a game called REAL LIFE...also hear it is a real bummer.

I think that it is probibly just a small group of players that would be gung ho for  such a game. I guess players themselves could implement it in game. Like that DDO group that does. When you die you delete character. Same thing...nobody should complain when they can do it themselves. The games are made for the general masses. Ppl wanting something specific from a game just gotta find a way to do it themselves.

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Originally posted by Narian89

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Originally posted by ladyattis

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Originally posted by rovo
hehe, Perma-Death would be an OPTION on some different server. Once your guild dies off or something, just move to regular servers, its just there for another play option .

Also, it wouldn't really work for a full-time thing on level-based MMOs. They had one server in EQ for ~month, the highest levels got rewards on their main server characters (also got the characters that one transfered over). Just never would work full-time cause you will be able to just farm the competition once the higher levels got situated (level-based MMOs only).

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Yep, that's why those models for DPS will never work. But Perma-death by definition does not depend on those specified one dimensional DPS models to be fulfilled. Therefore, Perma-death is not stupid.

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I find your logic very amusing.

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There's nothing amusing about it. You're asserting that the current DPS model is the only DPS model. Can you give me evidence for that? Otherwise, any claims given are based on the assumption that every model for combat follows the same model you suggest (WoW).

-- Brede

ive got a level 12 hardcore elite melee summoner in mythos,its pretty good fun. certainly puts an edge on things. Its actually a pretty popular mode too,and its normal mode (aka super easy mode) that seems to be the least popular. Id like to try it in hellgate,except in not willing to sub :)

Didnt dofus (??) just add a hardcore mode too? and shaiya has a kind of permadeath option. so there must be a section of players out there who like that kind of thing,though i wouldnt fancy it in something really gear centric like eq2 or wow. 6 months of repetitive raiding with people you dont like, all to lose it in a second after a hunter attacks you and feigns death in booty bay,leaving you at the mercy of the goblins..

I wouldn't say pure permadeath would be good because then you'd have to make up a new character each time you died.  How about you just de-level to level 1 and you loose everything.  Or maybe you just de-level 10 levels each death.

Originally posted by Hrothmund

Originally posted by 3on1

i dont like permadeath cause when i spend hundreds or more hours on a toon that can lose everything when he dies once then id piss my pants 24/7 :D

Don't you fell your accomplishments feel indifferent when you know there is no way of losing them? Even just a little bit?

no i just like to have some certainty, knowing theres no way i can lose an item i maybe raided months for i like to keep it like that, permadeath just isnt my thing n thats why i dont play those games :p

Alright OP....

First I want you to play this. Use the arrow keys to move and type in ' ? ' followed by ' * ' for the list of commands for the game.

After you've beaten that, IF you beat that, I want you to download Mame and the ROM for Don Pachi. Your assignment is to beat the game three times. You may continue all the way through to the ending on the first run. After that you have to beat it on one credit. Finally I want you to beat it on just one life. Then tell us which run was the most rewarding for you.

Now since I'm sure you've completely missed the point, download and beat Angband.

Permadeath is just another restriction added to the game in order to create challenge. It's not a risk vs. reward thing at all. It's all about trying to get to where you're going with limited resources. That kind of logistical strategy just doesn't happen in a game with no negative consequences for failure.

Modern MMOs are like playing Contra with infinite lives. It doesn't matter how often you get killed, you're going to get to the end. Given, very few people can beat that game without two players using the 99 life trick, but if you were able to beat it without continuing or losing a life then the sense of accomplishment would be truly awe inspiring.

Aside from super casual games like Bejeweled or Super Collapse, MMORPGs are probably the easiest games ever made. Some of us enjoy a challenge.

Originally posted by Narian89

Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Thats not like WoW! You would have to be doing something that was totally different from WoW. Something unique isn't WoW, and why wouldn't you want to be playing WoW. Seriously, people need to shut the hell up with their "creativity" BS, theres nothing more creative than WoW. If WoW can't do it, it can't be done or its boring. WoW.

What's wrong with permadeath? People do it in D&D Online all the time.

Originally posted by Kordesh

Originally posted by Narian89

Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Thats not like WoW! You would have to be doing something that was totally different from WoW. Something unique isn't WoW, and why wouldn't you want to be playing WoW. Seriously, people need to shut the hell up with their "creativity" BS, theres nothing more creative than WoW. If WoW can't do it, it can't be done or its boring. WoW.

 

Hahahahahahahaha! Totally not what I said.

Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe

Alright OP....

First I want you to play this. Use the arrow keys to move and type in ' ? ' followed by ' * ' for the list of commands for the game.

After you've beaten that, IF you beat that, I want you to download Mame and the ROM for Don Pachi. Your assignment is to beat the game three times. You may continue all the way through to the ending on the first run. After that you have to beat it on one credit. Finally I want you to beat it on just one life. Then tell us which run was the most rewarding for you.

Now since I'm sure you've completely missed the point, download and beat Angband.

Permadeath is just another restriction added to the game in order to create challenge. It's not a risk vs. reward thing at all. It's all about trying to get to where you're going with limited resources. That kind of logistical strategy just doesn't happen in a game with no negative consequences for failure.

Modern MMOs are like playing Contra with infinite lives. It doesn't matter how often you get killed, you're going to get to the end. Given, very few people can beat that game without two players using the 99 life trick, but if you were able to beat it without continuing or losing a life then the sense of accomplishment would be truly awe inspiring.

Aside from super casual games like Bejeweled or Super Collapse, MMORPGs are probably the easiest games ever made. Some of us enjoy a challenge.

Nah, I'll pass.

I would love to see a game with a permadeath server, for all the reasons already mentioned. I whole-heartedly agree it adds another level of excitement.  I am also a fan of corpse-looting and open, factionless pvp, as all of these things make mouthy folks think twice before spoutin off.  Where most of you are getting derailed on this thing is where you assume you'd be "forced" to play on a server ruleset you don't agree with.  I don't think anyone has said "permadeath is best for everyone." 

Originally posted by ladyattis

 

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Originally posted by Narian89

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Originally posted by ladyattis

 

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Originally posted by rovo
hehe, Perma-Death would be an OPTION on some different server. Once your guild dies off or something, just move to regular servers, its just there for another play option .

 

Also, it wouldn't really work for a full-time thing on level-based MMOs. They had one server in EQ for ~month, the highest levels got rewards on their main server characters (also got the characters that one transfered over). Just never would work full-time cause you will be able to just farm the competition once the higher levels got situated (level-based MMOs only).

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Yep, that's why those models for DPS will never work. But Perma-death by definition does not depend on those specified one dimensional DPS models to be fulfilled. Therefore, Perma-death is not stupid.

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I find your logic very amusing.

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There's nothing amusing about it. You're asserting that the current DPS model is the only DPS model. Can you give me evidence for that? Otherwise, any claims given are based on the assumption that every model for combat follows the same model you suggest (WoW).

-- Brede

Re-read. Not saying that at all. lol!

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Originally posted by Narian89

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Originally posted by Kordesh

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Originally posted by Narian89

Why are a lot of people now posting about wanting permadeath in MMO's? Thats not like WoW! You would have to be doing something that was totally different from WoW. Something unique isn't WoW, and why wouldn't you want to be playing WoW. Seriously, people need to shut the hell up with their "creativity" BS, theres nothing more creative than WoW. If WoW can't do it, it can't be done or its boring. WoW.

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Hahahahahahahaha! Totally not what I said.

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