General Discussion

NetDevil Programmer Steve "Istvan" Hartmeyer stops by once more to talk about the upcoming MMORPG, Jumpgate Evolution. In this new developer journal Hartmeyer talks about PvP in the sci-fi game.

The issue of PvP features in Jumpgate Evolution has the appearance of being extremely controversial, making the subject sensitive for the development team to address. Jumpgate Evolution is in many ways derived from Jumpgate Classic, and the original game's community has become extremely agitated over the potential changes coming in the new product. Even before Jumpgate Evolution appeared on the horizon, PvP was a divisive issue for the Jumpgate Classic community. Jumpgate Classic was designed from the start as a PvP game. Its simplistic PvE gameplay was a late-beta addition, nearly an afterthought. For some players, however, the available PvE became a major draw and main point of the game. For many others, PvP combat was simply never interesting or important because other activities and styles of play were more enjoyable.

Discussions of PvP matters in Jumpgate have a tendency to take on aspects of religious warfare. There are two diametrically opposed camps within the Jumpgate community, and there appears to be no dissuading members of either side. One group insists that "No place in the game should be safe from PvP", while the other side demands "Don't push your RP on me." As developers, we absolutely must build our game to appeal to the most customers possible, maximizing commercial success, or we risk inability to offset the costs of development. The PvP issue is so strongly polarizing, however, that the forms of PvP gameplay we provide can powerfully affect the number of customers we might attract. Despite the obvious conflict, we want to build a sound PvP system for Jumpgate Evolution that will satisfy many of the extremists in both camps, while also ensuring there is plenty of room in the game for people who don't wish PvP to be the entirety of their game experience.

Read it all here.

Good post.

The biggest problem of JGE to tackle is its own JGC community.

JGC was hardcore PVP game - in true PVP spirit of Shadowbane or UO. And its old community expects JGE to be the same.

But games with such hardcore pvp are not usually comercially succesful. JGC was a struggling game just like Shadowbane , or the latest example Fury.

To be succesful JGE has to blend PVE and PVP in a unique way

And old JGC community is very likely to come short and furious over this.

But its the only way for JGE to become mainstream and not niche game.

I am interested in the PvE and not the PvP.

PvP is one of the reasons that Eve Online is not as large as it could be.

PvE is one of the reasons why WoW is as successful as it is.

Earth and Beyond was very successful because it was PvE and if EA had not bought Westwood I am willing to bet that it would still be around today.

If you want to have PvP in the game make it optional. That is the best way. The next choice is to have certain high reward areas that would draw people to them as PvP only areas. Not as effective but at least middle ground.

If this game is going to be major PvP then I am not interested in it anymore. 

They should be watching what's happening in POTBS. The lack of PVP and overall PVP design is creating some problems for the PVPr's, some are already leaving.

I hope they don't make the same mistake of ignoring Solo PVP. Auto Assaults PVP design was a disaster.

As a long time EVE player I'm eagerly following Jumpgate's development.

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Eve Online (CCP), presently the most successful online space-genre game, possesses wholly safe zones, where the mere beginnings of a PvP attack result in artificially effective obliteration for the attacker.

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EVE does not possess 'wholly safe' zones. While pvp'ers in those zones sacrifice their ships if they attack anyone, it's much more common than one would believe. Suicide ganking in high security space is a very profitable profession in eve; by catching lazy empire haulers laden with high end minerals, loot, manufacturing materials its possible to make billions off a single kill, which is certainly worth suiciding a ship for.

A spatial separation between PvP and non-PvP areas appears to be the way to go, e.g. we have the "core sections" which are so heavily guarded by NPC police and AI defence systems that not even the most skilled solo PvPer can cause serious havoc; and the "frontier" sectors where basically "everything goes". So non-PvP, "carebear" players can go about their businesses in almost complete safety (from unconsensual PvP at least).

I'm not a PvPer myself - in almost all MMOGs I've played so far I somehow ended up spending a good deal of my time mining or hauling stuff - but even I like the feeling of danger, not to know what lurks in the next sector, or just outside my radar range.

JGE has a somewhat unique opportunity to re-define PvP in a MMO due to the true skill based combat.

Unlike EVE, or the classic SWG, or the founding UO, where the "skill" systems were merely use based skill leveling (or leveling over time of skills); JGE is truly "twitch" based skill.

So indeed a "noob" who is a hot hand with his/her joystick can and SHOULD be able to compete with the grizzled veteran spacer.

Looking at what has been successful, and where other modern titles under construction are going, the idea of shards with varying rule sets is most likely the most well received and profitable solution.

1. You need to have PvE oriented servers where PvP is either purely consensual (i.e. entering a specific instanced area) or a toggle of some sort. Be it guild vs. guild conflicts, it's still a form of a PvP toggle. Be it specific PvP missions or star systems, it's still a form of toggle.

2. You also need to have more PvP oriented servers where PvP is consensual only because you chose that server type. These still need to have "safe" areas such as home worlds/star systems. Even the hardcore PvPer wants to take a break and chat, sell loot, repair etc. in relative safety. 

My suggestion for this type of server would be a faction based system. Not only does it create a sense of belonging which adds greatly to immersion, but it garauntees even the solo PvPer some backup and assistance. 

On the other hand, the sci-fi space based universe lends itself greatly for the role of Pirate. Lawless, solo PKs who who just want to watch the world burn and get rich in the process.

This is fine, this kind of FFA element, but the ONE thing you HAVE to do to make FFA work is make the consequences of choosing the "dark" path very severe. Just the fact that because you attack anyone, anyone can attack you is NOT enough consequence for the PK. You have to make the role of anti-PK much more lucrative and valuable then the role of PK, for starters. Otherwise, you'll end up just like UO were the ganker/griefer ruled the day. 

For FFA to work you have to make players really have to think about whether or not they should attack another player. If just given the option to attack, many will because they have no fear of retaliation or just consequence. This has been the #1 problem with all FFA PvP games.

It's hard to make players feel the consequences of their devious action in a MMO. It's just a game, why not kill that poor noob and steal his hard earned stuff? Or simple kill him for fun! 

To do FFA PvP you need harsh consequences for the PK, and very, very lucrative rewards for the Anti-PK. I garauntee you'll still get plenty of PKs, but (hopefully) you'll also get enough Anti-PKs to balance things out.

Sometimes the  arguments on the JGC and JGE boards can give a false impression of the  game enviroment. For the most part the PVE players and the PVP players are the same people who divide their their time between both activities.  You can't make a living PVPing only so almost all PVPers have to get involved in the other aspects of the game, and almost all PVE players have at one time or another tried PVP.

 Most of the play going on at any one time is PVE and the players can go about their lives quite safely, but  it's true you are never entirely safe and despite the penalties sometimes you are attacked for political reasons or just for the hell of it. People perceived as greifers  are generally  hunted down by the PVPers or by traders and haulers who get into fighting ships. This together with the economic hit means that its relatively rare, but the vocal reaction to it can make it appear  much more common than it is.

I have played this game for 6 years, most of the time as a PVPer, I have around 600 kills thats about 100 a year, this game is not "Quake in Space" you can PVP for hours and not get a kill sometimes, which makes them when they come all the sweeter.

Despite this I would not be interested in a PVP only game, the ability and necessity of PVE give the game depth. OK if it's needed make certain areas safer in JGE but not completly safe as in Eve. But when you've got half the peeps complaining that the penalties for a rip are too high and half complaining that they are too low you've probably got it about right.

PS. In my opinion they are probably a little too high at the moment as Pirating is almost gone and some pure PVPers are voting with their feet, I dont see the PVE guys going.

Originally posted by Viramor

As a long time EVE player I'm eagerly following Jumpgate's development.

 

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Eve Online (CCP), presently the most successful online space-genre game, possesses wholly safe zones, where the mere beginnings of a PvP attack result in artificially effective obliteration for the attacker.

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EVE does not possess 'wholly safe' zones. While pvp'ers in those zones sacrifice their ships if they attack anyone, it's much more common than one would believe. Suicide ganking in high security space is a very profitable profession in eve; by catching lazy empire haulers laden with high end minerals, loot, manufacturing materials its possible to make billions off a single kill, which is certainly worth suiciding a ship for.

 

 

I suspect that type of "gaming the game" will be squashed in Eve, much like all the other high sec exploits of the past were.