Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Originally posted by coffee

Kara and ZA are 10man raids.. there is no reason you cannot PUG it, a long time ago we had a 15man UBRS and that was always PUG, they have made raiding easy enough as it is, we dont need to make it easier because a select few cannot be botherd to make the effort.

 

I would not called 98% of their customers "a select few". They should cater to most of their customers.

They *have* made the game easier (less elite mobs in the non-instance world, faster leveling) and see how many more customers they have gained.

The 2% that the OP was referring to was those who have visited Black Temple.  Certainly a lot higher percentage of people have gone to Kara.  I'd say it's more like 50% and a heck of a lot of the remaining 50% have not gone just because they don't have a character at max level.  Kara is pretty much accessible by anyone no matter how casual you are and yes it can be PUG'd, just don't expect a PUG group to finish it.  But down a boss or 2?  Certainly possible especially if someone in the group is familiar with the instance and can explain what to do to those that don't know.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

Originally posted by coffee

Kara and ZA are 10man raids.. there is no reason you cannot PUG it, a long time ago we had a 15man UBRS and that was always PUG, they have made raiding easy enough as it is, we dont need to make it easier because a select few cannot be botherd to make the effort.

 

I would not called 98% of their customers "a select few". They should cater to most of their customers.

They *have* made the game easier (less elite mobs in the non-instance world, faster leveling) and see how many more customers they have gained.

The 2% that the OP was referring to was those who have visited Black Temple.  Certainly a lot higher percentage of people have gone to Kara.  I'd say it's more like 50% and a heck of a lot of the remaining 50% have not gone just because they don't have a character at max level.  Kara is pretty much accessible by anyone no matter how casual you are and yes it can be PUG'd, just don't expect a PUG group to finish it.  But down a boss or 2?  Certainly possible especially if someone in the group is familiar with the instance and can explain what to do to those that don't know.

I'm not sure how it is post bc. i remember pre bc blizzard saying only like 10% of players reach end game, and only 10% of those players actually get gear from end game content.

Catering to 1% is kinda stupid. But i guess its worked for them.

I personally think raiding is kinda lame. I liked asherons call where raiding wasnt limited, the quests were actually fun, and for some reason it didnt take 20 guys pounding on one piece of trash for 6 hours to finish it....

Originally posted by Nadia

 

Originally posted by yesuconn

 I think MMO's should make these end game raids more accesible to the average gamer. Let everyone play the WHOLE game.

no mmo has ever done that

 

 

raiding and "solo player" content are 2 entirely different styles of play

 

WOW has offered raid lite -- 10 man

 

Sorry to say you are wrong, but you are! EQ the father of raiding "NEVER" made you have to have said gear to enjoy a raid. All that was ever need in EQ and still to this day is the man power and the level requirment.

Originally posted by Povey151

 

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by nariusseldon

I would not called 98% of their customers "a select few". They should cater to most of their customers.

The 2% that the OP was referring to was those who have visited Black Temple.  Certainly a lot higher percentage of people have gone to Kara.  I'd say it's more like 50% and a heck of a lot of the remaining 50% have not gone just because they don't have a character at max level. 

 

I'm not sure how it is post bc. i remember pre bc blizzard saying only like 10% of players reach end game, and only 10% of those players actually get gear from end game content.

Catering to 1% is kinda stupid. But i guess its worked for them.

Could you please clarify this?  What was Blizzard referring to because obviously they weren't talking about making it to level 60.  Most of the characters on the servers just prior to BC were lvl 60.  Well over half I would say.  Now if they were talking about making it thru Naxx, then I'd say that sounds about right.  But then if they are talking about Naxx, how is it that only 10% of the players there actually get gear from there?  Where else would it have come from?  PreBC I don't think there was any better gear then from Naxx so why wouldn't there gear come from there if they were going thru it?  Your numbers don't add up.  Sounds like Blizzard was saying that 10% of the player population get's it gear from raiding at the highest levels.  I would believe that.

Blizzard is in no way shape or form catering to 1% of the players.  There's no way they would continue to get the subs they do that way.  The fact of the matter is that Blizzard caters to the masses.

The amount of US and European level 70 players that have killed atleast 1 boss in Black Temple is close to 10%.

And with the removal of attunement to BT in 2.4 that amount will surely go above 10%.

Raiding is extremely simple and you can find a multitude of casual guilds doing the low end raids to fit nearly any time schedule.

Originally posted by Mistick 

Sorry to say you are wrong, but you are! EQ the father of raiding "NEVER" made you have to have said gear to enjoy a raid. All that was ever need in EQ and still to this day is the man power and the level requirment.

you mean the game that had raids of  * 72 * people during Planes of Power expansion ?

How many EQ Players have been Gates of Discord endgame content ?

Ive been to Luclin/POP/Discord endgame content in EQ

-- its no different for a BIG timesink and coordination than WOW,

including needing the good gear to advance to harder content

Gates of Discord was the 2nd worst Raid expansion in mmo history

players left EQ in droves because the content was stupid hard

--- and this was before WoW launched

Originally posted by Xiaoki

The amount of US and European level 70 players that have killed atleast 1 boss in Black Temple is close to 10%.

And with the removal of attunement to BT in 2.4 that amount will surely go above 10%.

Raiding is extremely simple and you can find a multitude of casual guilds doing the low end raids to fit nearly any time schedule.

 

That doesn't mean they all enjoy this raiding...so a tiny % of a tiny %.

To consider been "catering to a group", this group must MOSTLY do this activity.  If 1/1000 are mostly in raid-content, I would be extremely surprised.  Most of the peoples who experience raiding, are mostly doing other activities, not raiding.  Most peoples never experience raiding, and most peoples who experience it hardly do it...a minority among a minority...LOL.

Endgame must cater to the majority, regardless of it they do it or not...and the majority...solo/group; in PvE.  Endgame must make the majority DREAMS...and raiding or PvP fails to do that.

Pappy 13, I didn't want to quote your long post, but thank you for the excellent write up on the life and trials of a "raider". I saw myself in many of your points, and its one reason why I gave it up and refuse to play a game that has raiding in it.

All MMO's have to create content for the hardcore, elite players. (those who play a lot).  Unfortunately, this means that it will require effort that is beyond some large percentage of the general population.

Life's not fair folks, and neither are games.  Blizzard continued to try and make it more accessible to more and more folks, but it just cannot be 100%.  There will always be some dungeon that 90% of the community will never get to see, and there's nothing to be done for it unless the player wishes to rearrange their life-style to accomodate it.

I love your first post Pappy13, very insightful, the only correction I'd make is that the loot is definately much better than the non-raid gear, there is no comparisson (yes, even with the rep stuff and heroics).

I made a reply on heerobya's blog that relates a lot to this:

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/heerobya/022008/1184_Casual-raiding-Typo-or-truth

I'm surprised we didn't get more comments from 1337 raiders on how they "earned" their purpals and on how casuals suck, because we all know that time=gear=skill (NOT!)

Thanks to all of you who appreciated my post on the life of a raider.  I myself at one time envied some of my friends who had tried their hand at raiding.  They left our small guild because we simply didn't have the manpower to run anything larger than a 5 man and started to look for other raiding guilds.  They jumped from guild to guild to find one that was fairly enjoyable and when they finally found one after 2 or 3 attempts that seemed pretty good, I made the effort required to catch up to them and joined them.  And while I really enjoyed my time raiding, I realized that I was really envious over nothing.  Sure I got a few nice purples here and there, but the amount of work and dedication I spent toward getting those purples just didn't really seem justified to me.  I enjoyed my time while it lasted, but when it was time to move on to even tougher instances, I gracefully bowed out.

And I think my story holds true for a lot of folks.  Yes, I understand the reasoning behind people wanting to see these instances, but what they need to understand is that it's not really all that much different from doing a 5 man, it's just more of everything.  More people, more time commitment, more frustration when things don't go well and yes more loot.  So don't get your panties in a bind over not seeing it.  You really haven't missed as much as you think you have.

Anofayle - are you saying that the amount of characters in WoW that are level 70 is a tiny percent? Really?

What the heck are you smoking? WoW is like half level 70s.

Also, nearly everyone has been to Karazhan, which is endgame raid content.

Lastly, your "Endgame must cater to the majority" is very vague. What is endgame then? Is it raiding? Is it PvP? Is it Heroics? What?

Your definition of "endgame" is too narrow minded and so are you.

Originally posted by Nadia

 

Originally posted by Mistick 

Sorry to say you are wrong, but you are! EQ the father of raiding "NEVER" made you have to have said gear to enjoy a raid. All that was ever need in EQ and still to this day is the man power and the level requirment.

you mean the game that had raids of  * 72 * people during Planes of Power expansion ?

 

 

How many EQ Players have been Gates of Discord endgame content ?

 

Ive been to Luclin/POP/Discord endgame content in EQ

-- its no different for a BIG timesink and coordination than WOW,

including needing the good gear to advance to harder content

 

 

Gates of Discord was the 2nd worst Raid expansion in mmo history

players left EQ in droves because the content was stupid hard

--- and this was before WoW launched

 

My point is this! Yes most might not of got to play the end game raid, but it wasn't because of gear as much as lack of man power. EQ was not as gear dependant as apose to WoWs, becuase of the large scale man power it took to raid in EQ the majority wouldn't see a specific drop that they "had" to have to proceed with another end game content.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Anofayle - are you saying that the amount of characters in WoW that are level 70 is a tiny percent? Really?

What the heck are you smoking? WoW is like half level 70s.

Also, nearly everyone has been to Karazhan, which is endgame raid content.

Lastly, your "Endgame must cater to the majority" is very vague. What is endgame then? Is it raiding? Is it PvP? Is it Heroics? What?

Your definition of "endgame" is too narrow minded and so are you.

PVP is just...... to get some gear for raiding, nothing more, couze pvp has no big meaning in all WoW universe....

All Wow is just based on gearing up for next step, you were gearing up in 5 man dungeons for kara, in kara you gearing up for grull, in grull and kara you gearing up for ssc/tk, in ssc/tk you gearing up for.........

and then you just kill illadari - end game. WOOOOOOOW, all that hours and hours of raiding to kill 1 Npc.....

I whant old UO back..... seriuosly...

Originally posted by Shadowhearth

 

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Anofayle - are you saying that the amount of characters in WoW that are level 70 is a tiny percent? Really?

What the heck are you smoking? WoW is like half level 70s.

Also, nearly everyone has been to Karazhan, which is endgame raid content.

Lastly, your "Endgame must cater to the majority" is very vague. What is endgame then? Is it raiding? Is it PvP? Is it Heroics? What?

Your definition of "endgame" is too narrow minded and so are you.

well you cant go more narrow in WoW about end game, its 25man raid in BT, to kill a guy named illadan.....

 

PVP is just...... to get some gear for raiding, nothing more, couze pvp has no big meaning in all WoW universe....

All Wow is just based on gearing up for next step, you were gearing up in 5 man dungeons for kara, in kara you gearing up for grull, in grull and kara you gearing up for ssc/tk, in ssc/tk you gearing up for.........

and then you just kill illadari - end game. WOOOOOOOW, all that hours and hours of raiding to kill 1 Npc.....

 

I whant old UO back..... seriuosly...

ROFL I was laughing so hard after reading this, because sad fact is it's true!

Originally posted by Mistick

Originally posted by Shadowhearth

 

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Anofayle - are you saying that the amount of characters in WoW that are level 70 is a tiny percent? Really?

What the heck are you smoking? WoW is like half level 70s.

Also, nearly everyone has been to Karazhan, which is endgame raid content.

Lastly, your "Endgame must cater to the majority" is very vague. What is endgame then? Is it raiding? Is it PvP? Is it Heroics? What?

Your definition of "endgame" is too narrow minded and so are you.

well you cant go more narrow in WoW about end game, its 25man raid in BT, to kill a guy named illadan.....

 

PVP is just...... to get some gear for raiding, nothing more, couze pvp has no big meaning in all WoW universe....

All Wow is just based on gearing up for next step, you were gearing up in 5 man dungeons for kara, in kara you gearing up for grull, in grull and kara you gearing up for ssc/tk, in ssc/tk you gearing up for.........

and then you just kill illadari - end game. WOOOOOOOW, all that hours and hours of raiding to kill 1 Npc.....

 

I whant old UO back..... seriuosly...

ROFL I was laughing so hard after reading this, because sad fact is it's true!

Its no different from any other game, take WAR, its focus is PvP but you need to gear up in that also for higher tiers, EvE same thing gearing up your ship for 0.0.... Wow is not alone in this its the mechanics of MMO's.

Name  1 MMO where your not preparing your self for bigger battles and/or new content.

Originally posted by yesuconn

Im not a "lazy" player and I dont sit around for half an hour waiting for an invite......as i said before i work alot and i also like this game alot. It just seems that "elite" guilds form and they are the ones that get to experience the whole game. I dont see that as fair.....i cant play the whole game because I work too much? I pay the same 15 bucks as the next guy....but as you say the "elite" players (aka live in your moms basment and have limited interactions with other people) get to experience the true end game? Meh i say make it more accesible to everyone. Or does that scare you "elite" players that someone in orgrimmar might be running around in the same gear as you?

I hardly think that "elite"  raiders gets to experience the whole game.

I find most of them skip the bulk of the game and go straight for the raids. In the end 25 man raids take time to organise it, if you don't have it, don't worry about it.

It doesn't sound like you have time to play the whole game anyway, there is plenty more to see and do than the very few raids. It's a miniscule part of the game and for myself, not the high point.

By it's very nature it isn't going to be acccessable to everyone, but the that is no reason to deny it to those it is available to and enjoy it.

The beauty of a game like WoW, is that with so many different activities available, pretty much everyone can find something to amuse themselves with.

Blizzard however have made a consistent effort to make it as accessable as possible. You only need tier 3.5 gear (Karazan) to go even to the Black Temple, all the prequest attunements have been dropped (or are about to be in the next patch) and tier 5.5 gear is available from Badge rewards and PvP so you can 5 man or even solo it.

What raids do provide is a continued character progression. When all the rest of game is done, there is still a new bit of kit out there to achieve and somewhere new to explore, if they were readily accessable it would defeat the object.

In the end the only time consuming part is organising all the people. Which since you are unwilling to do that, counts you out. Working so much and only having limited time is going to rule you out of a whole lot more activities than just 7 dungeons in WoW. It's a pretty lame excuse in my opinion.

Most raiders work too. The problem with raiding is that it isn't an aspect of the game that you can get involved with if you aren't willing to make a lot of effort and it isn't fair on the other people trying to organise it, who are putting a lot of time and effort into it, if you aren't willing or able to make the same commitment.

Why bother giving them the big guilt trip about how hard you work and how much free time you don't have?  

I liked matey's suggestion about difficulty levels. Although I can';t help but think that as long as it's a 25 man instance it is going to be difficult anyway.  

P.S., it's WoW, everyone in Ogrimmar is running around in the same gear as me.

Originally posted by coffee

 

Originally posted by Mistick

Originally posted by Shadowhearth

 

Originally posted by Xiaoki

Anofayle - are you saying that the amount of characters in WoW that are level 70 is a tiny percent? Really?

What the heck are you smoking? WoW is like half level 70s.

Also, nearly everyone has been to Karazhan, which is endgame raid content.

Lastly, your "Endgame must cater to the majority" is very vague. What is endgame then? Is it raiding? Is it PvP? Is it Heroics? What?

Your definition of "endgame" is too narrow minded and so are you.

well you cant go more narrow in WoW about end game, its 25man raid in BT, to kill a guy named illadan.....

 

PVP is just...... to get some gear for raiding, nothing more, couze pvp has no big meaning in all WoW universe....

All Wow is just based on gearing up for next step, you were gearing up in 5 man dungeons for kara, in kara you gearing up for grull, in grull and kara you gearing up for ssc/tk, in ssc/tk you gearing up for.........

and then you just kill illadari - end game. WOOOOOOOW, all that hours and hours of raiding to kill 1 Npc.....

 

I whant old UO back..... seriuosly...

ROFL I was laughing so hard after reading this, because sad fact is it's true!

Yes its true, but he misses the whole point... its not the destination that counts its the journey.. having fun with your guild mates and ingame friends as you progress to the kill 1 NPC.

 

Its no different from any other game, take WAR, its focus is PvP but you need to gear up in that also for higher tiers, EvE same thing gearing up your ship for 0.0.... Wow is not alone in this its the mechanics of MMO's.

Name  1 MMO where your not preparing your self for bigger battles and/or new content.

I kind of agree with you , its all about go out with your friends, BUT tell me how many people leave friendly giulds and go to raiding giulds, only to progress, with poeple they newer sow before?

I had very cool giuld, we were in kara/grull farming, and we rolled on items, we were taking anyone with us from giuld. we were just having fun. First non hc raiding giuld. BUT they whanted to progress,so some giuldies took hardcore players, got wrided of old members, good friends who were with em in first kara raids( wearing some greens and blues), just becouse they cant make it every single night!.

And i was with that giulds GM since he was lvl1! we were good friends. But hey, he whanted HC raiding so disbanned all our giuld took HC people, not even friends, and whent ssc/tk. mount hyjal...

So where that "friends having fun time" stuff gone?

So WoW would be good product, but they forgot us, casual Joes, who have lifes, and cant join raiding giuld! They have to give us something to do outside that, not just roleplay orgimmar grunt by bank.

And what the hell with that: when you try join hardcore giuld, You are being asked to be online atleast 5-6days per weak. play atleast 35 hours per weak.

Tell me? do i look for myself second full time job. Or i just whana play and have fun on my free time. So what if i whant to go to the pub on fryday night, i have to talk  GM like to mine mother, and ask him a free non-raid night.... Just to go and have a pint with my friends?

Originally posted by Xenduli

I'm taking bets against someone will mention welfare during this thread.

No deal.

Originally posted by Nadia

 

Originally posted by yesuconn

 I think MMO's should make these end game raids more accesible to the average gamer. Let everyone play the WHOLE game.

no mmo has ever done that

 

 

raiding and "solo player" content are 2 entirely different styles of play

 

WOW has offered raid lite -- 10 man

 

In point of fact CoX has the only PvE raid I have ever enjoyed in the Rikti Mothership runs even though you can get every single good item in the game through a group.  But that is probably because its a true battle with many many versus many, rather than a boring many on one fight.

Originally posted by heerobya

Blizzard got it 1/2 right with the "standard" dungeons and the "heroic" dungeons.

That way, the standard ones are easy enough where everyone can run them and complete them, but the heroic versions take skill, coordination, and a higher gear level. By completing these heroic dungeons, you get better rewards.

The reputation grind to unlock the heroic mode is a little too much IMO.

 

The questions is, why haven't they done the same for raiding? Have standard and heroic difficulty settings for raids.

The standard raids are much easier then the current ones, but the gear levels are much more comparable to the heroic 5-person dungeons.

Put Tier 4,5,6 gear into the 3 tiers of "standard" raids and put the Tier 7,8,9 in the "heroic" raids.

This way, everyone has a much better chance of at least seeing and experiencing the content, but the "hardcore" raiders who possess the dedication, skill, coordination, and effort to do the "heroic" raids end up with the greatest rewards.

It'd be a PERFECT opportunity to bring back some of the older raids too. Make "heroic" versions of MC, BWL, AQ40, and NAX for groups of 25 level 70 characters. Even bring back heroic versions of ZG and AQ20 for groups of 10 level 70 characters.

Or even take out the Tiered gear from the standard raids, just put in the non-Tiered armor and weapons, and save the better stuff, the Tiered gear for the Heroic raids.

Anything that get's more people playing and logging in is a bonus. Anything that let's people enjoy content is a good thing. Sure, when someone asks "So has your guild killed Illidan?" You can say "Yes, but only on standard difficulty."

Or balance the gear so that the highest Tier raid on Standard difficulty gears and prepares you for the lowest Tier raid on Heroic difficulty. Re-using content is fine, and if anything going through standard Raid Tier 1-3 then going back through on Heroic Tier 1-3 is much better and less mind-numbing then hitting the same raid week in, week out for months, then FINALLY moving up the next Tier.

What do ya'll think? Casual raiding with less powerful rewards for non-hardcore players who want to raid and see the content and turn the raids we have in now into the "heroic" ones for the uber-guilds who want (and deserve) the best PvE gear.

I could write a 20 page post explaining exactly why they do this and why they are wrong but instead I will summarize it.

Basically they, and almost all MMORPG game designers, do not understand the difference between a large organization and a small organization.  This is rather ironic given the medium.

They basically believe that large = harder.  Of course they seem to completely forget that smaller groups tend to be much more efficient and skilled.

Ever heard the expression "An amry moves on its belly"?  Yes well there are many layers to that very true expression. 

Anyway they have no real understanding of the difficulties involved in large scale operations and why they do not translate into smaller scale operations and basically believe the clusterfucks that happen in a large scale operation basically make it always harder.

This is false on many levels.  Unfortunately it affects their conception of diffculty.  For them a raid is as hard as it gets because frankly they do not fully understand "hard" or even understand that a large scale operation is just fundamentally different.

This applies to 80% of the MMORPG devs not just WoW devs.