Originally posted by Sidoxs

You dont understand how mmos work, you dont understand how companies market mmos, you dont understand that they want your money not your support. Sure, every game has pve and pvp, but you CANNOT cater to both and not have one complain.

no *@$@ man...just saying a game is pvp based is not saying there is no raiding...but the majority of the game is pvp based lol so it dont matter....

You still dont understand. There will be more pvers than pvpers. The pvers will complain that they spend 3 hours a day killing a dragon for some purple boots that arent even as good as the pvp set. The people who kill dragons will still rvr..Its not going to be like daoc, there will be more raids for better gear.

Dont have time to go into the rest, gotta bomb people on my enchanter

Originally posted by Sidoxs

You still dont understand. There will be more pvers than pvpers. The pvers will complain that they spend 3 hours a day killing a dragon for some purple boots that arent even as good as the pvp set. The people who kill dragons will still rvr..Its not going to be like daoc, there will be more raids for better gear.

 

Dont have time to go into the rest, gotta bomb people on my enchanter

GL on your enchanter

To say this game is gear based is funny. Will it help yes, will you suck if you don t have it no. Can you obtain this said gear YES. If you wantit you can get it, through huge raids with 40-60 people having to organize etc no not at all. To take over a city and then some raids open up and contribute solo, guess what you can. So no it s nothing like WOW or games similar. Bottom line is you can better yourself with gear but it will not make such a huge difference where you can get 1 or 2 shot at all. And as far as DAOC goes it s way more gear dependant then WAR is by a long shot even though DAOC is far less then WOW is.

Woe is us. Doom. Sadness, unending grief.... sigh, there goes another game. I had SO hoped for a game without the gear-greed spiral. I guess they really aim for the WOW target audience. Meh. Me dont likes.

Originally posted by tikovoo

All i wanted to do was enjoyed frienzied RvR fighting with the opportunity to make some good armor / weapons, so is it true i have to either a) raid for them or b) do 5 instances around a city siege to get the best items as quoted above? Because if gear makes up 40% thats alot and makes the game quite item centric and thats something i was under the impression the game wasn't. Don't get me wrong it still looks like fun, but I dont want to have to grind anything for the best gear, I'd rather make it.

 

In that game, gear and items were of course important, but I think you have to understand that small differences in stat bonuses due to gear won't make you uncompetitive.

Naturally, you would want the best gear you can acquire, but in WAR -- unlike the WoW system PvE raid system -- I feel the ability to acquire good items without dedicating massive amounts of time to PvE raiding.

I believe WAR, like DAoC, will have several potential sets or types of good gear and items available from a variety of sources: some PvE raids and quests, some from RvR combat, some from RvR city capture, and some from high-end tradeskills.

This is actually good because people LOVE to collect items, powerful items, attractive items, special items, rare items and -- if possible -- uber items.

Let me give an example I recall from DAoC.

As an archer, I wanted the best bows of course and there were three high-bows available, each with different stat bonuses and procs.  I was able to acquire two of the three easily and the third one in a raid.

The point being that even if there are special high-end items, I believe Mythic will not put these items out of reach for the average player.  What this means is that everyone or nearly everyone at some point will acquire the "good stuff" which will put players on a level playing field.

This is the way I see it and this is the way I believe it will work out.

Decided to look up the differences between Arena Season 3 and Season 2  arena gear in WOW - and just as I suspected the latest Arena 3 gear is nearly 30 percent more powerful than the tier below. Keep in mind that the majority of WOW players don't have Season 2 gear yet. The difference in stats  between the best-geared and worst-geared WOW player is likely 150-200 percent.

I'm guessing that when the War devs are talking about a 40 percent difference, they're comparing a city siege veteran to a casual gamer who's just hit max level and has very basic gear. The differences between a great player's gear and a good player's gear will probably be closer to 10-20 percent - an edge certainly but not an overwhelming one.

Also, I don't care if it takes me longer as a casual player to get gear. Just as long as one day I can work my way into that gear, I'm happy. WOW makes it nearly impossible for anyone but the most hardcore to get top Arena or Tier 6 gear.

Finally you get it Liquid. Yes, people are that stupid.

Originally posted by Sidoxs

EVERY new MMORPG made by a company that has a name WILL be raid based and gear based. How many games will be made before people finally understand this. Let me ask you this..  Have there been any successful mmorpg (200K+ population) that have come out after World of Warcraft that have NOT been raid based?

I dont think so: first.- any of us tested WaR and in other way, are anyone breaking the beta NDA? so we dont know really what is.

second .- "every new mmorpg" will be raid based? how you can state this? you are a dev? a design leader?

Originally posted by BattleFelon

Decided to look up the differences between Arena Season 3 and Season 2  arena gear in WOW - and just as I suspected the latest Arena 3 gear is nearly 30 percent more powerful than the tier below. Keep in mind that the majority of WOW players don't have Season 2 gear yet. The difference in stats  between the best-geared and worst-geared WOW player is likely 150-200 percent.

WoW, take a good long look and try again mate, the differences between 2 linked season sets is *marginal* at best. 30% is just plain lies.

How  can i state this? ill tell you how. Look at every major mmo  that has been released since the release of world of warcraft. name one that has had success and is not raid based. tell me that. youre pathetic if you dont see the trend in the gaming community, you should just stop trying to think you know what you are talking about.

I have an idea. How about we make a game where everyone gets the exact same gear, the exact same stats, the exact same skills. If one side brings more than the other...the extra people on the larger side can't play.

Oh, if someone still manages to get smokechecked, we'll just give them gold/xp/RP's so that they can match the top tier player in the game that spends 23 hours a day playing. While we're at it, there will be no raids or anything that takes longer than 5 minutes to do. Players will from this day forth just sit around and talk in the chatbox..wait, in vent(we wouldn't want people to have to type) instead of making any effort to actually play a game, or challenge themselves.

/sarcasm off.

D.

Originally posted by Sidoxs

How  can i state this? ill tell you how. Look at every major mmo  that has been released since the release of world of warcraft. name one that has had success and is not raid based. tell me that. youre pathetic if you dont see the trend in the gaming community, you should just stop trying to think you know what you are talking about.

But bro saying that nothin since wow that isnt raid based wont last forever, just cause it hasnt happend yet doesnt mean it wont....i think war will be that mmo...but only time will tell

"Please this game is going to be very dependable on gear, your just avoiding reality if you think its not."

What you are saying is based on factual information that was posted in an interview but, this is simply a prediction based on things that were said, which one of them was not "this game is going to be very dependable on gear" where in fact it was stated in the very interview you are quoting this from that two players of similar level and similar skill can always compete regardless of gear. We don't know if the game will be based mostly on gear. We won't know that until the game is released.

"If you want the best gear your forced into a competition to get it. You can't make/craft the best gear it comes from a DROP"

What was the last good level based MMORPG where the best gear came from crafting? Thats right, it doesn't exist. Simple fact of the matter is, people like gear, we don't play mmorpgs just to fight people over and over.

    We play them to advance our character(s) and become unique in a world where what we have done feels like it matters, and it is much more meaningful when you get to pickup gear that makes you feel more powerful then you did previously and look cooler then you used to.

Also if you think that "having to compete" for gear is something that you don't want to deal with, I suggest sticking to games like final fantasy. These are called MMORPGs for a reason. They are supposed to be a cooperative and competitive environment. The very foundation of warhammer is based on competition. What is the point in raiding a capitol city if you don't get good rewards out of it? Thats right, there is none.

MMORPGs have a pretty detailed history now and are here to stay...but there is one thing that has ALWAYS been there, one thing that drives games to the top and makes certain ones come out better then others and more successful. You know what that is? Reward. If people aren't advancing there character in some-way-shape-or-form then they simply won't play or they will avoid the area where they can't advance. Being as by the time you actually raid a capitol city you probably have most of the best gear in the game, I would imagine you would want something better out of it.

"In Daoc, another problem was with the aurelite instances...the xp was really bad. Total grind fest that really sucks the fun out of the gaming experience, i hope its not going to be something similar in WAR?  "

DAOC is an old game, and came out well before the WoW quest system did. Every game since iirc has adopted this same system, and warhammer is doing the same. It works great and it has always been more enjoyable then grinding. I would expect it not to be anything remotely close to DAOC in this regard.

"So just FYI its as number crunching as any other game out there. Wanted to make sure we are all on the same page here. As I see alot of skill based comments, 40% is a lot to over come even for someone good. "

So FYI since your whole post has been obviously made mostly of ignorance (not watching any podcasts probably) and speculation I am going to speculate a little bit and compare this game to DAOC for a second like you seem to love to do. In DAOC gear mattered, but I saw multiple guilds of talented players move over to my server and level up to 50, just get the crafted gear (this is during TOA when crafted gear was meh) and totally dominate everyone but the most experienced (equally competitive) groups. Will Warhammer be the same as this? Hopefully!

But that is just speculation...I honestly could care less if gear mattered as much as WoW as long as you can show off being a skilled player (which you could in that game believe it or not) in the game while enjoying it like everyone else.

Originally posted by tikovoo

Going from this: http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/devchat/2886-Warhammer-Online-Dev-Chat-Log.3

<~DelmarWynn> Pixystix: Being a former DaoC and Ultima online player, I have a question in How important will gear be? In WoW gear was 90% of the game, which took away the fun of PvPing sometimes when it was literally impossible to kill someone who had a significant gear advantage to you?
<@[WAR]Gersh> in WAR gear will matter
<@[WAR]Gersh> Weapon DPS adds to Melee Character attacks, and a solid 40% or so of a player's stats is from Gear
<@[WAR]Gersh> that being said we've designed the loot system and the stat system to allow for a nice broad competitive range
<@[WAR]Gersh> So two players of similar level and similar skill can always compete regardless of gear.. Of course the better geared player will have an advantage

"Gaining additional stats is predominately done via equipment."

................

Please this game is going to be very dependable on gear, your just avoiding reality if you think its not.

One way to get that gear is to raid for it: 11/29/2007 8pm RAID!!!

40 % of a players stats come from GEAR.

Another way to get the best gear is Capitol City raids, to compete some of this you will need to raid in the dungeons of the opposing city, where gear is located too.

If you want the best gear your forced into a competition to get it. You can't make/craft the best gear it comes from a DROP. In Daoc, another problem was with the aurelite instances...the xp was really bad. Total grind fest that really sucks the fun out of the gaming experience, i hope its not going to be something similar in WAR? DAoC is just a grind and it seems like the things that you can kill always drop stuff that is a level or two lower than what you need. Will War be the same?  It should be pretty obvious that with Daoc the game used to be (and still is) doesn't work well for keeping a player base, i really hope EAMythic has learned from this.

So just FYI its as number crunching as any other game out there. Wanted to make sure we are all on the same page here. As I see alot of skill based comments, 40% is a lot to over come even for someone good. 

Some people even predict a while for a capitol city raid from launch, with only a few types of the "phat" gear dropped thats going to put a huge price on gear and the market place. City Siege = instance? info was from Nov last year has this changed? http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm?SETVIEW=features&BHCP=1&LOADFEATURE=1589&GAMEID=239&bhcp=1

"Please note that the city siege itself will be population limited (size to be determined) and could play out over several different instances."

Would be interested to know how they will keep the farmers out, if equal gear can't be crafted.

All i wanted to do was enjoyed frienzied RvR fighting with the opportunity to make some good armor / weapons, so is it true i have to either a) raid for them or b) do 5 instances around a city siege to get the best items as quoted above? Because if gear makes up 40% thats alot and makes the game quite item centric and thats something i was under the impression the game wasn't. Don't get me wrong it still looks like fun, but I dont want to have to grind anything for the best gear, I'd rather make it.

 

You're obviously not in beta.  You should wait till the NDA is lifted and get some facts before you go on with the doom and gloom.  And just to point out, the devs have stated that the only things unique to WAR are the RVR, PQs, and Tome of Knowledge.

The last thread of hope I had for this game just broke.

Originally posted by Sidoxs

How  can i state this? ill tell you how. Look at every major mmo  that has been released since the release of world of warcraft. name one that has had success and is not raid based. tell me that. youre pathetic if you dont see the trend in the gaming community, you should just stop trying to think you know what you are talking about.

There's been a MMO since WOW came out thats been successful? Where?  Closest you can find is LotRo and while they have some optional raids, I doubt anyone would tell you that game is "raid -based."

Still doesn't mean a game that isn't raid based can't succeed.  No, they may not draw in the same numbers as WOW, but there is still a respectable number of gamers who do not want to raid, and will gladly forgo it.

Remember, EQ invented the raid, and a couple of those same devs moved over to WOW and added it there. 

In this case, past performance is not a good indicator for the future.

Just look at DAOC its not gear base you could go into battle with whatever you want as long as your stats are cap you could still own people. Yeah there is gear that gives you helpful procs that would help you will battles. But you still could get your but kicked if you don't have the skills on how to play. I don't see EAMythic taking the WOW path in making a special type of gear u need to win battles with no skill. Just button pushing.

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Originally posted by Liquidvison

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Originally posted by Sidoxs

You still dont understand. There will be more pvers than pvpers. The pvers will complain that they spend 3 hours a day killing a dragon for some purple boots that arent even as good as the pvp set. The people who kill dragons will still rvr..Its not going to be like daoc, there will be more raids for better gear.
 
Dont have time to go into the rest, gotta bomb people on my enchanter

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lmao well if someone decides to pick up a pvp based game for the 5 city seige instances is a total dumbass....why would you get a pvp game for the little pve it offers? LMAO i really hope people are not that stupid but i guess there are because i know people who picked up WoW for the PvP which might be the dumbest thing ive ever heard lol
 
GL on your enchanter

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Beacause they will, and when they do, the furious PvE fans will demand this game to change.. Ill ask you !! Have you read verious articles about Warhammer, intervievs with Mythic etc, They will try to please anyone, just as WoW is trying to..And the biggest market is NOT PvP or Realm VS Realm..It's PvE, PvP is a niche game style..

/Junker

What it comes down to is if WAR tries to be PvE based it's going to lose out to WoW. That's why they introduced capital cities raids as their end game content for now. Atleast, I believe I read of heard that somewhere.

Why should instancing Capital City raids feel like a grind? It's going to be different every time. The biggest problem I see is having a pre-made, stomp group, guild group, vs the rabble of random people joining the other side. Something like in WoW. One side gets utterly ground up, while the other side dominates continuously.

I also believe I heard you can change to different city raids. I'm personally looking forward to raiding Ulthuan, and Altdorf. I don't know the dwarf city very well, but punting around some stunty's could be fun too.

if WAR is anything like DAoC the gear sounds the same. Think, if I go up, naked, against a guy that is fully geared and SCed, I'd have my base level stats no + to my skills. I think I'm going to get stomped hardcore sounds about like 40% of the gear right there. BUT, if I grab the gear that drops that gives some stats, ooh nice some + to hits and maybe some resistance. I'll go up against that geared guy from 20% to 40% sure he may still win in an all out bash battle, but I should get him down enough for hte next not-so-geared guy to pummel him to death.

So, 40% may sound like a lot but it may not be so hard to get to /shrug