The new info coming out of the AOC Q&A this week makes the game sound like it's returning to the bad old days of WOW's honor rank system, especially the part about your PVP experience decaying every time you die. This is not meant to be a flame thread, but until this week it sounded like there would be PVP opportunities for those players who can't play AOC as a second job. Now, I'm not so sure PVP will be worth it unless you're a hardcore gamer.

Anyone else worried? I know that in the past Funcom has promised that PVP will be something fun that you can just jump into, and that there will be casual-style combat like bar-brawls. I hope that's the case, but any time I hear about PVP ranks and decaying PVP experience, I get nervous.

Originally posted by BattleFelon

The new info coming out of the AOC Q&A this week makes the game sound like it's returning to the bad old days of WOW's honor rank system, especially the part about your PVP experience decaying every time you die. This is not meant to be a flame thread, but until this week it sounded like there would be PVP opportunities for those players who can't play AOC as a second job. Now, I'm not so sure PVP will be worth it unless you're a hardcore gamer.

Anyone else worried? I know that in the past Funcom has promised that PVP will be something fun that you can just jump into, and that there will be casual-style combat like bar-brawls. I hope that's the case, but any time I hear about PVP ranks and decaying PVP experience, I get nervous.

Also, I am not entirely sure, but are the Mini-PvP-Games even subject to that rule? Like bar-Brawling and the other little games? Or is that reserved for the big open PvP?

Anyway, the one thing I really don#t see, is how you can compare that system to WoW. The first system WoW implemented was mind-boggingly stupid and made players stay in the game nearly 24/7 for months, just to progress. The system now is a bit better, although Arena-Grindfest is still up along there. I'm thinking that losing PvP Experience when you die is nothing I would be particularly concerned about.

Of course, I might have gotten it all wrong? If so, please point me to the relevantinfo, since I couldn#t find it browsing.

The major fear I have about PVP experience loss on death is how other players will respond in face of this potential loss.  In PVP oriented games in the past that I have participated in people will quickly flee and leave their mates to die alot of times in order to avoid such losses.  They also tend to be selfish either in protecting or healing you.  That would be my concern with xp loss.

To the OP, I see you posted a similar thread in the WAR forum and from the way both games look you can be competitive in PVP in either game while maintaining a casual play style.  Now as far as staying competitive you may end up falling behind in AoC due to the 20 pvp levels it plans to employ (and by this I mean that those people who attain all their max PVE and PVP levels will likely have an advantage of those who do not have max pvp levels; and assuming there is a significant difference between the pvp levels), whereas in WAR you have scenarios and RvR zones that are limited to level brackets which prevent much higher level people from running you over.

In the end I think you could play either game casually.  I would just wait and ask this question again when each game lifts its NDA.

@ Singsofdeath

You're absolutely right that I may be over-reaching in comparing AOC to WOW's old honor system. But I can't help but be concerned when Funcom starts talking about PVP ranks and decaying honor. It still seems that this system could turn into a massive PVP grindfest where someone who plays 80 hours/week will still reach the top bracket despite skill, and vice versa for a good casual player who just doesn't have the time to rack up massive PVP experience.

I may be wrong and a system of diminishing returns means that only the truly best players reach the top levels, which I'm ok with. Also, I'm hoping they make PVP something I can still enjoy from time to time.

even if there isn't a battlegrounds type idea. i am content with World PvP.

Decaying pvp experience is a good idea in my opinion. If there's one thing that annoys me about MMO's is that due to a lack of a death penalty people throw themselves into a fight with no real concern for surviving it.

When I played DAOC, I certainly didn't have the number of kills as many folks, but my kill to death ratio (which was tracked by Mythic for the players) was well over 2 kills for every death. Contrast that with people who might be 50/50 or worse.

I was a Minstrel, and it was very easy to survive a fight since I could stealth away. I remember on several occasions folks sending me tells saying why didn't you fight till you died?  I'd tell them it was as a lost cause and no point in dying for no good reason. 

Sure, some folks might run or not support their mates, but mostly what this will do is make people cautious. Sometimes it makes no sense to take your single 6 man group and hurl it at a 20 man zerg just to try and get some kills before going down.  Better to back off, and try to work on a fight with more chance for survival.

Overall, a little risk will make people think before they fight, and that's never a bad thing.

I like the idea of people having something to loose in pvp, I really despise the mindless kamikaze tactics many games sport, and people always-and-ever standing there till they are killed even if it gives them (and their team/side/etc.) no tactical advantage. This enforces team play and tactics in my opinion.

As for being casual and competive: there are always people with more time to spend gaming then others, and of course they should be rewarded for their dedication. You should compete with players of your own strength, if I understand the pvp system of AoC (and WAR) is that you will be able to jump into action (as guild member, mercenary, traveler in pvp zone, etc.) and actually do make a difference.

This is a terrible idea. It doesnt make the game hardcore, it makes it carebearish. Why? Because jumping senselessly at a grp is actually a challenge. Fighting a fight u probably wont win is also a challenge. And are the things that make u BETTER at pvp and promote pvp quality.

If this goes through be prepared to see alot of people running from fights/ evaccing/ or never leaving stealth. Also this will promote the ganker style of play, with every1 playing assassins rangers or other stealth classes. And unfortunately it will probably lead ever more people than usual to jump on the fotm vagon.

If there is deacaying pvp exp, the loss should be very very small. Otherwise, it will become what EQ2 pvp became.

In EQ2, where death in pvp means possible loss of your pvp rank, people RUN. People AVOID pvp.

Thats not good.

You can't find anyone to fight, except those best geared or pvp groups that gank you in seconds. This system encourages people to avoid and run from pvp fights... PvP skill became the skill of running from equal or stronger opponents and looking for weaker ones. Everyone is trying to keep their "Champion" or "Destroyer" rank.

Why should i fight this guy that looks like an equal match for me? There is the possibility of losing the fight. And losing the pvp exp, the rank. I'm gonna wait till i see the opponent that i'm sure i will beat. Lower level than me.

Those who avoid any equal fights, have the best pvp ranks.

I hope they won't make the PvP the same as in EQ2 - The Art of Running Away and Hiding

Originally posted by BattleFelon

So how hardcore will the PVP be?

WoW-like death penalty - you tell me how hardcore that is.

Originally posted by EverSkelly

In EQ2, where death in pvp means possible loss of your pvp rank, people RUN. People AVOID pvp.

Thats not good.

I hope they won't make the PvP the same as in EQ2 - The Art of Running Away and Hiding

EQ2 has got the worst pvp system of any game

Originally posted by fantaros

This is a terrible idea. It doesnt make the game hardcore, it makes it carebearish. Why? Because jumping senselessly at a grp is actually a challenge. Fighting a fight u probably wont win is also a challenge. And are the things that make u BETTER at pvp and promote pvp quality.

 

If this goes through be prepared to see alot of people running from fights/ evaccing/ or never leaving stealth. Also this will promote the ganker style of play, with every1 playing assassins rangers or other stealth classes. And unfortunately it will probably lead ever more people than usual to jump on the fotm vagon.

I appreciate the fact that you bothered to explain your post a bit, but you have things all wrong.

First.. If this makes AoC anything, it makes it more realistic. If I were sitting in a field polishing my bastard sword and saw a company of men on the horizon dressed for battle... I certainly would not say to myself,"Lets run up and hit one of those guys. Im sure I can take out at least one."

I would hide behind a tree until they pass. Just like anyone with an IQ higher than a carrots'.

Second.. From everything I have gathered from this game, the PvP is based on team style play. Formations, formation bonuses and fortification battles suggest that you should get and stay in a group for a better play experience.

Stealth classes will not be a saving grace for gankers either. If you stab someone... you better get them good. Its not going to be easy to run and stealth into thin air.

Anyway.. Carebearish isnt a word. "Fighting a fight you u probably wont win" is not a challenge... and, "And are the things that make u BETTER at pvp and promote pvp quality.", is a sentence I dont understand.

Look forward to being one of the teams you race forward to slay.

See you then... briefly.

I agree... pvp that makes the players cautious and choose their fights is better. Definitely better than WoW where a stealth class can simply vanish into thin air in front of you which is utter bullshit.. I like AoC's system better.

Why would u hide from a full grp if the diminishing ranks dont go through? What qualifies as a challenge in pvp for u? What will improve your perfomance?

How can u become better at stabing some1 if the only ones u stab are the classes to whom u are suposed to be the counter?

This all of course my opinion, but still i expect the game will shift more to the employment of zerg tactics instead of skill and cooperation if any kind of rank and especially diminishing ones are used.

P.S. if i wanted realism i would play a paintball game not an mmorpg

Because I don't want to be playing a gank fest, if you want good one on one pvp there are lots of FPS for you to play. Team PvP is what it should be. You get better working with others to accomplish your goals and become a better player of the game, this is what you want right? It can be done just as well as a team. Lone wolf agents of mass destruction have no business in MMOs, that's what console games are for.

Originally posted by fantaros

Why would u hide from a full grp if the diminishing ranks dont go through? What qualifies as a challenge in pvp for u? What will improve your perfomance? To me, the real challenge of PvP is a good kill to be-killed ratio. I treat PvP as a test of how long I can stay alive, not how many kills I get. If I can wipe out a duo by myself and stay alive,I see that as a major victory.

 

What can improve my performance on the PvP battleground?

A good team. Strategic stealth or solo play... and a nice heavy sword.

 

How can u become better at stabing some1 if the only ones u stab are the classes to whom u are suposed to be the counter? I dont understand this at all. Are you implying that  I only choose battles I can win in solo play?

Of course I do.

Im smart... I like have my character live. You dont have the luxury of life and carelessness in solo PvP. It sets me apart from someone who has 1000 kills and 1000 deaths. I would much rather have 100 kills and 10 deaths... i suppose this is where we differ.

With team play, there wont be the chance to pick your perfect targets. Come as you are.

This all of course my opinion, but still i expect the game will shift more to the employment of zerg tactics instead of skill and cooperation if any kind of rank and especially diminishing ones are used.

 

P.S. if i wanted realism i would play a paintball game not an mmorpg. I would rather you do that than Leroy Jenkins my a$$ in PvP.

 *edit spelling

Stop saying to people who want real PvP they have to play a FPS.
People who want PvE don't have go playing Baldur's Gate, do they???

See what I'm talking about ? (hint: it's the "massively" part of the MMO acronym)

Anyways, back on the topic:

I really think WAR - who was supposed to have good PvP - will just be acarebear game (at least compared to _my_ definition of PvP), and that makes me wanna puke. Let's hope AoC is better.

people complain about "ganking" only because they do not have back up. In swg(pre-cu) that was the greatest pvp game i have ever played and i can only hope AoC is half of the pvp that swg was. Its called you get ganked, you grab your guild and friends and gank back. Its this type of stuff that starts huge, amazing world pvp battles. I still have videos on my computer of 100v100 battles in swg that were caused because rebels ganked a few imperials and the imperials came back with extra help. Stop being carebears and crying about pvp. They makes servers and ways that you do not have to pvp so stop complaining and either adapt to survive or go find the other means of non-pvp.

So they went from promising item loot and/or blood money to exp loss? F*** that this game had potential to actually be a really quality game but as it nears the finish line it is being morphed more and more into WoW

Originally posted by ValUkr

So they went from promising item loot and/or blood money to exp loss? F*** that this game had potential to actually be a really quality game but as it nears the finish line it is being morphed more and more into WoW

Blood money are out? I never think they had item looting, they were thinking at some point to allow u to loot a random item but i dont think that idea made it past the drawing board.

Can any1 confirm that blood money is out?