Originally posted by dragonace

 If nothing else the SWG example should have taught everyone that you don't design your game one way and then change it in mid-stream. 

Any potential gamers you may attract are off-set by the alienation of your current players... as SWG so dramatically pointed out. 

Not just SWG either. Mythic found out the hard way as well when they released the TOA expansion in DAOC, also in the hopes of attracting a larger player base.  In the end it wrecked the game for many players.

Yes, there will be some gamers who don't like that kind of game... no MMO is going to be all things to all players. 

I totally agree, I think to this day too many developers try to be all things to all gamers in the hope of attracting more players.  They might succeed, but the game experience suffers by being sort of washed out and mediocre.  I'm really hoping AOC hasn't fallen into that trap, their raiding end game conflicts with a strong PVP focus, (IMO) we'll have to see if they succeed or just end up another WOW.

Hopefully Turbine will learn from SWG and see that the promise of "more players" is not as important as sticking to your design. 

Nothing else to say really, this summarizes the situation perfectly.

Originally posted by Alan0n

Originally posted by dragonace

 

I like the way Turbine has created LoTRo, so why would I need to play a single player game?  Shouldn't it be players that DON'T like the game as it is currently designed to find a different game?  I guess I'm just not understanding your logic there.

 

LOTRO is not bringing in the number of players it should be as a MMO.  There are many reasons.  One of it is that in many parts it breakes the basics of other MMOs, while implementing others that are NOT in the Lore anyway.   WoW is not much of a mmo.  Sadly.

All I can go by is the plentiful amount of players running around having fun that I see every time I login.  I guess that isn't the case for the times that you login?  Perhaps you need to try a different server then, as maybe the times you are logging in are not good for that server.

Originally posted by Kyleran

 I'm really hoping AOC hasn't fallen into that trap, their raiding end game conflicts with a strong PVP focus, (IMO) we'll have to see if they succeed or just end up another WOW.

 

I know what you meant by the quote I left up above... but I thought I'd poke a little fun at you. 

I'm sure that Funcom would be devastated if AOC ended up being another WOW! 

Originally posted by Alan0n

Im a big Tolkien fan and I've also played MMOs for long long time. But I still dont like LOTRO.   And the poor use of the lore is one of it.   No magic in LOTR ?   No wizards ?  No flying mounts ?  Where is the restriction?   All of this is strongly involved in LOTR.  Reason why we dont have flying mounts is cause of technical reasons - has nothing to do with lore.  Turbine grapich engine can't handle it.  End of story. 

Im very dissapointed in the way Turbine has presented the epic story in LOTRO.  It has very little to do with limitations.  It has to do with poor thinking of the basics of the books that could so easily have been implemented in the game and made it so much intresting.  Lets take examples.

Hobbits:

Simply not heroic material.  Thats the basics of the story.  They are pure hearted and spirited and that way they become  usuefull to the fellowship.  Easy enough to implement into MMO.  They give buffs before and during fights.  And that does NOT involve playing instruments....  for god sake.  How lorish is that '?? "And Frodo picked up his flute and started playing to cheer Gandalf up while he killed the troll"  ... hmmm  NO!!!

Secondly - most powers of the Hobbits are based on the items they are given. And some can only be used by them cause of their pure heart.  Also easy enough to implement in MMO.  Questdriven story can easily hand out items that give you powers.  Infact thats more of a story than going to a trainer and "train" them.  Where was that part in LOTR?  I must have missed it.  And who is saying that ALL hobbits have to get exactly the same items Frodo and his fellowship got ? ..

So ... spirit and pure heart + items make the Hobbits.  What a great base for a MMO driven gameplay.

Dwarfs:

Not much is said about dwarfs in LOTRO compared to other races.  They could very easily been implemented in much more variety. 

Elfs: 

Comon.... No magic ?  Elfs don't DIE in LOTR !!!  How much can you spin around that?  If I ever saw a class of healers then it would be Elfs.  Even diffrent kinds - Elfs using the forces of nature.  Elfs using the forces of magic.   If the elf in the fellowship is a sharpshooter with a bow it DOESN'T mean that there were no elfs with other powers.  Comon...

Wisards: 

Story of its own.  Gandalf isn't a wisard?  And he is the only wisard?  NO!  Period.   So.. do the wisards in LOTRO have to be as strong as those presented in the books ?  Nope ofc not.  But they had magic powers they could use - very powerfull ones.  Does that say there were not other kind of wisards ?  Don't think so.  Gandalf the gray... Gandalf the white...  You could make wisards that used both weapons and magic.  You could make wisards that just use Magic.  You could even make wisards that protect and heal the raid with their magic.  No restrictions is it ?

Tanks in LOTR ? 

SImple answer.  Nope.  There is no 1 tank in LOTR.  There are diffrent classes that help protect others.  So if this game was made to support the lore - then there would be no "tank" class in the game.  I dont remember seeing any member of the fellowship holding a shield.  Still it was implemented in the game.  OFC since MMO without such basic features is kinda pointless.  So why not think of the other basic features to balance it?

My main point.

The ORGINAL fellowship in LOTR is build up on group of classes and races.  On all of their journeys they are not given alot of chance to succseed cause maybe that setup isn't very likely to get far (with 4 hobbits).  LOTRO should HONOR the fellowship in a way that its just one group that gets gigantic task for its setup.  That IS the story of LOTR.  It does not put ANY restrictions on other fellowships in the game.  Not in terms of classes or setups.   This is the part where Turbine fails horribly.  They try to make a game where everything has to be JUST like it was told in the story of LOTR.   They forget that every single MMO player that gets into the game is making their OWN story. And that story doesn't have to be exactly the same as the orginal.  The point is that it should be very DIFFRENT even tho it happens in the same time that one fellowship is traveling to Mount Doom...  The story of every single player in LOTRO should be epic enough to match the orginal LOTR story.  Does that mean it has to be the same ???  NO !!!!

THats just poor MMO.  Very poor.

I'm sorry, but after reading your post I don't think you do understand the books.

There are no flying mounts except for what the Nazgul have. If they had Evil Races then perhaps one could make some argument for Sauron creating some sort of flying mount for some higher Lt. in his army. Not sure how that would work as now you want everyone to be a Nazgul.

The Eagles are not mounts. Stop it. They are a Race of beings and are essentially "helping out". They are not there to be summoned and ridden like a pony.

Gandalf is a Wizard but what you can't seem to understand is that a Wizard in LOTRO is like a demi God. There is a whole reason as to why they are the way they are. Other than that, magic is wielded much like another poster wrote, as nature magic. And Illusion. There are very few pyrotechnics and they are always less than Fire Balls from the sky. And science, let's not forget that there is some use of gunpowder or something similar.

As far as classes go, Turbine made the decision to create classes that are similiar to the class archetypes in other games. Some like this, some don't.

They then looked at the characters in the stories, made decisions on what characters seemed to fit those roles and fleshed them out accordingly.

As far as whether or not Turbine did a good job? That is subjective. I think they did a good job with some things not on others.

The OP makes a very bold statement in that Lore is what killed the game. Lore did not kill the game. It did put defined boundaries for the developers to work with. And yes, they could have put LOTRO in a time before the books or after the books but because the IP is so recognizable you would get many peopel thinking "hey, I'm going to play the Lord of the Rings" and they would get somethign very different.

Personally, I like the idea that the players are doing deeds at the same time the ring has been found and is being carried to Mt. Doom. Just another group of heroes doing their part in a very exciting time. Whether or not Turbine has done a good job conveying that excitement is another thing.

But Lore or essentially the details of the books are what make the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien wouldn't have wrote all those appendices or stories if he didn't think they weren't important. And furthermore, if you are to respect his work then you can't just take his work and throw it away. Somehow if he was alive today and someone approached him and said they wanted to make a game out of his work but they wanted to add things like flying mounts and pyrotechnic magic, I think he would say "you don't get it".

Originally posted by Arudanel
Sorry for the wall of text..any idea why my new paragraphs just aren't taking? I put in spaces, paragraphs, etc,a nd jsut get a huge wall of text that reads like the Vietnam Memorial. LOL

Originally posted by Sovrath 

I'm sorry, but after reading your post I don't think you do understand the books.

There are no flying mounts except for what the Nazgul have. If they had Evil Races then perhaps one could make some argument for Sauron creating some sort of flying mount for some higher Lt. in his army. Not sure how that would work as now you want everyone to be a Nazgul.

The Eagles are not mounts. Stop it. They are a Race of beings and are essentially "helping out". They are not there to be summoned and ridden like a pony.

Gandalf is a Wizard but what you can't seem to understand is that a Wizard in LOTRO is like a demi God. There is a whole reason as to why they are the way they are. Other than that, magic is wielded much like another poster wrote, as nature magic. And Illusion. There are very few pyrotechnics and they are always less than Fire Balls from the sky. And science, let's not forget that there is some use of gunpowder or something similar.

As far as classes go, Turbine made the decision to create classes that are similiar to the class archetypes in other games. Some like this, some don't.

They then looked at the characters in the stories, made decisions on what characters seemed to fit those roles and fleshed them out accordingly.

As far as whether or not Turbine did a good job? That is subjective. I think they did a good job with some things not on others.

The OP makes a very bold statement in that Lore is what killed the game. Lore did not kill the game. It did put defined boundaries for the developers to work with. And yes, they could have put LOTRO in a time before the books or after the books but because the IP is so recognizable you would get many peopel thinking "hey, I'm going to play the Lord of the Rings" and they would get somethign very different.

Personally, I like the idea that the players are doing deeds at the same time the ring has been found and is being carried to Mt. Doom. Just another group of heroes doing their part in a very exciting time. Whether or not Turbine has done a good job conveying that excitement is another thing.

But Lore or essentially the details of the books are what make the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien wouldn't have wrote all those appendices or stories if he didn't think they weren't important. And furthermore, if you are to respect his work then you can't just take his work and throw it away. Somehow if he was alive today and someone approached him and said they wanted to make a game out of his work but they wanted to add things like flying mounts and pyrotechnic magic, I think he would say "you don't get it".

Eagles are made as mount in LOTR movies.  Gandalf came flying on them in the end to save Frodo.  If that breaks the lore than Im sorry.  I didn't make the movie.  Period. 

And if LOTR made Gandalf look like a "demi god" .  He was born that way ???  Where and how did he learn his skills ?  And just because he is made look like demi god it means there is no way to make other wisards that are "learning" their trates just like the other classes in the game ?  How poor of  a game would that be?   Gandalf does NOT beat the armies of Mordor on his own.  He has some magical powers that are powerfull but.  Thats more like he is 5 lvls higher than the other in the fellowship to me.  If we put that into MMO contecst. 

I agree that the Op made bold statement.  But I do agree with him to a point.  The lore is ofc restricting the game.  We dont see spaceships in it do we?  But the rest of what is ruining this game AS an mmo game is the poor choise from Turbine how to implement the story.   Im personally not asking for flying mounts for example.  I couldn't care less.  I love to be able to visit the same areas as the fellowship did.  But that doesn't mean I want to do it JUST as the fellowship did.    This IS a MMO game.  And as such I see it as a failure.  And you could have said this and that about Tolkien wanted it to be this and that.  Did Tolkien want the fights to be littered with music playing?  How much of expics battles are those ?  Thats just bullshit. 

This IS a MMO and as such is NEEDS to be build as such.  There are many good parts in the game like the deeds and so on.  But it DOESN'T change the fact that huge part of the lore had to be changed anyway and most of what was changed was done VERY poorly. 

If you want a game totally based on the Lore than DON'T make a MMO with mmo features that are not in the story.  If you want to make MMO that will be played as an MMO in the same enviroment as an epic story, then do it properly!  

Turbine didn't - And it has nothing to do with lore.

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Seeing as I'm not a part of Turbine I don't have access to the information you apparently have.

 

 

All I can go by is the plentiful amount of players running around having fun that I see every time I login.  I guess that isn't the case for the times that you login?  Perhaps you need to try a different server then, as maybe the times you are logging in are not good for that server.

Are we hearing numbers of millions players playing LOTRO?  If so then I have missed it.  And I find that quite pathetic of Turbine to not be able to make a very populare MMO (in terms of millions of ppl).  There was alot of hype build around the game.  Still it has very low player base compared to what it should have. 

I don't have to do much to see how low the player base is.  Its enough to see how few servers are running compared to WoW for example.  And thats sad for such a epic story as LOTR is.

Originally posted by Alan0n

 

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Seeing as I'm not a part of Turbine I don't have access to the information you apparently have.

 

 

All I can go by is the plentiful amount of players running around having fun that I see every time I login.  I guess that isn't the case for the times that you login?  Perhaps you need to try a different server then, as maybe the times you are logging in are not good for that server.

Erm - Do you need to be part of Turbine to know that LOTR is possibly one of the most epic story and after the movies were made porbably the most well known ? 

 

Are we hearing numbers of millions players playing LOTRO?  If so then I have missed it.  And I find that quite pathetic of Turbine to not be able to make a very populare MMO (in terms of millions of ppl).  There was alot of hype build around the game.  Still it has very low player base compared to what it should have. 

I don't have to do much to see how low the player base is.  Its enough to see how few servers are running compared to WoW for example.  And thats sad for such a epic story as LOTR is.

Your opinion is based off your own opinion. Thats why its wrong. Look at swg for example. Unless Im forgeting some huge IP know around the world that was made into an MMO and has millions of people. Base your opinion off reality and history and LOTRO is doing about as well as it should have. Better than any other western MMO besides WOW. Id say that pretty good. No MMO will get millions of players again, except maybe..if a miricle happens..bioware will do it with a KOTOR mmo. And that being because they already have a fan base thats made up of people playing video games who are more than likely going to play the MMO. Or when blizzard released their next MMO..again, because their fan base is made up of people who play video games.

Originally posted by Alan0n

 

I think I understand the books just fine - but I also understand that the movie has created few "not lore" like features that added alot to the story.  At the same time Im trying to point out LOTRO IS changing some of the basics of the books in many ways.  It has to cause this is a MMO game right ?   Nope it doesn't.  Does the game have to have trainers standing in each city ?   Nope - Was that part of Tolkien story?  Nope.

 

Eagles are made as mount in LOTR movies.  Gandalf came flying on them in the end to save Frodo.  If that breaks the lore than Im sorry.  I didn't make the movie.  Period. 

And if LOTR made Gandalf look like a "demi god" .  He was born that way ???  Where and how did he learn his skills ?  And just because he is made look like demi god it means there is no way to make other wisards that are "learning" their trates just like the other classes in the game ?  How poor of  a game would that be?   Gandalf does NOT beat the armies of Mordor on his own.  He has some magical powers that are powerfull but.  Thats more like he is 5 lvls higher than the other in the fellowship to me.  If we put that into MMO contecst. 

I agree that the Op made bold statement.  But I do agree with him to a point.  The lore is ofc restricting the game.  We dont see spaceships in it do we?  But the rest of what is ruining this game AS an mmo game is the poor choise from Turbine how to implement the story.   Im personally not asking for flying mounts for example.  I couldn't care less.  I love to be able to visit the same areas as the fellowship did.  But that doesn't mean I want to do it JUST as the fellowship did.    This IS a MMO game.  And as such I see it as a failure.  And you could have said this and that about Tolkien wanted it to be this and that.  Did Tolkien want the fights to be littered with music playing?  How much of expics battles are those ?  Thats just bullshit. 

This IS a MMO and as such is NEEDS to be build as such.  There are many good parts in the game like the deeds and so on.  But it DOESN'T change the fact that huge part of the lore had to be changed anyway and most of what was changed was done VERY poorly. 

If you want a game totally based on the Lore than DON'T make a MMO with mmo features that are not in the story.  If you want to make MMO that will be played as an MMO in the same enviroment as an epic story, then do it properly!  

Turbine didn't - And it has nothing to do with lore.

Well, of course, those are good points. IN order to make an mmo and one that falls in with some of the traditional conventions, you have to add things like trainers. Gotcha, no argument there.

But what i still don't think you are realizing is that things like "eagles being a mount" are not they seem.

Yes, you are correct, in both the movies and the book, The eagles were ridden. But they are not a mount. I say this because I'm trying to differentiate between what one expects when one hears "mount". A mount is an animal that is used expressly for conveyance.

But the eagles are not "animals'. At least not in the sense of beasts. They are actually a race. They did convey many characters in the books but not as a beast. As one that can help a fellow citizen of middle earth.

But to say they are a mount makes it so that they are little more than beasts to carry players to and fro and to hang around the outside of bree flying around and dive bombing people for fun.

They are a race. Might as well have a dwarf carry you around on his back. And, if one would do it then I'm sure that many would like that

So, just because there are/were dragons in middle earth they should also not be mounts because they too were a sort of race. Though I think they were actually created so I need to look that up.

But yes, if one is to make a game one needs to implement things that help make it a game. No argument there. I also have no problem with adding things such as evil races (provided that they are limited to certain areas as orcs did not hang out with their friends in the shire, nor did they pk them. Also they are a bit limited as the fall under Sauron or Saruman's command.

So yes, using an IP as a game world is extremely diffiucult and can result with many problems. I don't think it wrecks the game but allows for the designers to develope unique gameplay elements. Whether Turbine did a good, great, or amazing job is open to debate.

And please keep in mind, I'm not a lore nazi. I won't be commenting on the symbols used or the gear and how it should be, etc. But if one is to play in a particular world then one should play in that particular world. With all it's limitations.

Originally posted by Alan0n

 

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Seeing as I'm not a part of Turbine I don't have access to the information you apparently have.

 

 

All I can go by is the plentiful amount of players running around having fun that I see every time I login.  I guess that isn't the case for the times that you login?  Perhaps you need to try a different server then, as maybe the times you are logging in are not good for that server.

Erm - Do you need to be part of Turbine to know that LOTR is possibly one of the most epic story and after the movies were made porbably the most well known ? 

 

Are we hearing numbers of millions players playing LOTRO?  If so then I have missed it.  And I find that quite pathetic of Turbine to not be able to make a very populare MMO (in terms of millions of ppl).  There was alot of hype build around the game.  Still it has very low player base compared to what it should have. 

I don't have to do much to see how low the player base is.  Its enough to see how few servers are running compared to WoW for example.  And thats sad for such a epic story as LOTR is.

I am fine with having the game the size that it is; and growing steadily.  I don't need for a MMO to be the size of WOW to think that it is a success.  The sooner gamers realize that WOW's size is an anomaly and not something we are likely to see repeated the sooner they can find  a game they find fun.

By your definition every MMO game in NA is a failure because it doesn't have "millions players".  Oh well, I guess they are failures then.  That's o.k. though, I don't mind playing a "failure" of a game.  I'm curious if you'll be making the same posts in the AoC, WAR & STO forums if/when they don't attract these "millions" of players as well?  Did you do the same for SWG?  The Matrix Online?  Or, is it only LoTRo that is a failure because they don't have the "millions" that you think they should?

Now that we know you think that LoTRo and every other non-WOW MMO in NA is a failure because they don't have millions playing... where does that leave you?  I guess I'm failing to see how your insight is going to attract these "millions".

Not a single other MMO has been able to attract these "millions" in the NA MMO player-base, but you would have us believe that if the developers would just listen to you and implement your ideas... bingo... they would have WOW numbers! 

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  I'll stick by the developers who have designed a game that I find very enjoyable.  I can live with it being a "failure" in your eyes because it doesn't have the "millions" that you think it should have.  I don't play MMOs for their popularity, I play them because they are fun.  I'm having fun playing LoTRo... along with a good number of others. 

Personaly I think the LORE is one of LOTRO greatest strengths.

Bounderies are NOT a bad thing. They create style and substance and help bring a setting to life.

Try being a GM sometime and giving the players everything they want or letting them do everything they want. I assure you they'll be bored after 5 minutes.

One the the big problems many MMO's have had is thin, stupid, cheesy, back stories. That often makes thier worlds feel plastic, simplistic, generic, boring.... and very often leads to glaring inconsitancies... and things that simply don't make any sense.

I think alot of folks just don't like Low Fantasy (i.e. subdued magic) or the Middle Earth Setting and want to play a game that is as good as LOTRO in a High Fantasy setting. That's is fine...not everyone has the same tastes.... but stop trying to morph Middle Earth into something it's not.... if you don't like the setting lobby for a quality game in a different setting..... Heck there are plenty of High Fantasy setting games out there... play one of those if you like... lobby to make it's execution better.... but don't mess with what already works for LOTRO's core audience.... not every resturant needs to be Taco Bell.

As far as Magic and Wizards in Middle Earth.... it was not non-existant but it was very subdued and rare... especialy by the 3rd Age. There were 5 Wizards in ALL OF MIDDLE Earth... 5.(Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando.).... and yes they were pretty much Demi-Gods. They were not "human" they were Maiar ... the middle earth equivalent of angels if you will..... and thier abilities were largely gifted to them...not learned.

Yes, there were certain others (Elves, Bombadil) who practiced magic of a sort..... and knowledge which was accessable to anyone could have certain "magical" effects.... pretty much blurred the line between magic and reality.... i.e. speaking the name of Elbereth could strike fear into the hearts of the Servants of shadow.... certain herbs and flowers having strong healing abilities when prepaired properly.... But know...you don't have a bunch of D&D style Magic Users hanging out at the Magic Guild at every town you stubles across and trading each other scrolls of Enhanced Fireball. If you are looking for that you need to try somewhere else.  

Originally posted by dragonace

 

Ahh... see that is where we differ.

 

I am fine with having the game the size that it is; and growing steadily.  I don't need for a MMO to be the size of WOW to think that it is a success.  The sooner gamers realize that WOW's size is an anomaly and not something we are likely to see repeated the sooner they can find  a game they find fun.

By your definition every MMO game in NA is a failure because it doesn't have "millions players".  Oh well, I guess they are failures then.  That's o.k. though, I don't mind playing a "failure" of a game.  I'm curious if you'll be making the same posts in the AoC, WAR & STO forums if/when they don't attract these "millions" of players as well?  Did you do the same for SWG?  The Matrix Online?  Or, is it only LoTRo that is a failure because they don't have the "millions" that you think they should?

 

Now that we know you think that LoTRo and every other non-WOW MMO in NA is a failure because they don't have millions playing... where does that leave you?  I guess I'm failing to see how your insight is going to attract these "millions".

Not a single other MMO has been able to attract these "millions" in the NA MMO player-base, but you would have us believe that if the developers would just listen to you and implement your ideas... bingo... they would have WOW numbers! 

Sorry, I'm not buying it.  I'll stick by the developers who have designed a game that I find very enjoyable.  I can live with it being a "failure" in your eyes because it doesn't have the "millions" that you think it should have.  I don't play MMOs for their popularity, I play them because they are fun.  I'm having fun playing LoTRo... along with a good number of others. 

But ur right - MMO can be MMO with just about 2k ppl playing on single server.  Still makes it an MMO.  I've played few of these games through the years and enjoyed them very much.  But usually they have very limited timeline since not enough players are paying to maintain further progress of the game.  

Im pretty sure if AOC or WAR are able to bring the MMO genre to next level they will be very populare.  WoW is the first MMO that has drawn millions of players to the genre.  And huge numbers are still playing it.  Even tho its far from perfect game it has much higher "fun" factor for the millions that are playing.  Maybe some hardcores old timers dissagree.   Dosn't change the fact that WoW has opened eyes of developers for the genre and the potetials it has.  Instead of making few thousands of players paying for few months you can now do much more with game that brings the "fun" part into MMOs.  

Im not big fan of WoW - but Im not so stupid either.   I have to admit it has brought millions of new MMO players into the genre.  Not all of them played Warcraft.  Not all of them had played MMOs before.   So maybe question is why are so many playing it while others MMOs have few thousends ?   Is it because WoW is boring and is not delivering what the players want ?

Before WoW we had games that had few hundreds of thousands of players playing them.  Like EQ for example.  Noone thought that giant would be beaten in numbers for long time. But  EQ has its limitations - just like LOTRO has its limitations.  And its EXACTLY these limitations that make ppl say... "No thx - this is annoying."  "I dont like this" or "why didnt' they do it diffrently'".  Its true that there are few players like you that find the game so perfect.  But far more said "no thx - Im not gonna like to play this and pay for it for long".   

But just like EQ wasn't - WoW is not the "endgame" of MMOs.  New games will come out - be they from BLizzard or other companies.  All we know is that Turbine failed in making anything close out of LOTRO as many expected.  Maybe more and more are coming to LOTRO.  Stil the game is in competition with other games AND the new games that seems to have alot to offer even tho Im not to impressed with some of the features.  What we know by now is that LOTRO will never have the huge player base that is probably needed to compeete with other more populare games.   But maybe WAR or AOC do.  I dont know - we just have to wait and see =)

So maybe Turbine should have made just a RPG game that you were happy with and few thousands more players.    Then they would have been able to stick to the Lore abit better and not make to many ppl dissapointed (like seems to be the case) of what Middle Earth has to offer.  Im not sure Tolkien would have wanted that.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel

Personaly I think the LORE is one of LOTRO greatest strengths.

Bounderies are NOT a bad thing. They create style and substance and help bring a setting to life.

Try being a GM sometime and giving the players everything they want or letting them do everything they want. I assure you they'll be bored after 5 minutes.

 

One the the big problems many MMO's have had is thin, stupid, cheesy, back stories. That often makes thier worlds feel plastic, simplistic, generic, boring.... and very often leads to glaring inconsitancies... and things that simply don't make any sense.

 

I think alot of folks just don't like Low Fantasy (i.e. subdued magic) or the Middle Earth Setting and want to play a game that is as good as LOTRO in a High Fantasy setting. That's is fine...not everyone has the same tastes.... but stop trying to morph Middle Earth into something it's not.... if you don't like the setting lobby for a quality game in a different setting..... Heck there are plenty of High Fantasy setting games out there... play one of those if you like... lobby to make it's execution better.... but don't mess with what already works for LOTRO's core audience.... not every resturant needs to be Taco Bell.

 

As far as Magic and Wizards in Middle Earth.... it was not non-existant but it was very subdued and rare... especialy by the 3rd Age. There were 5 Wizards in ALL OF MIDDLE Earth... 5.(Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando.).... and yes they were pretty much Demi-Gods. They were not "human" they were Maiar ... the middle earth equivalent of angels if you will..... and thier abilities were largely gifted to them...not learned.

Yes, there were certain others (Elves, Bombadil) who practiced magic of a sort..... and knowledge which was accessable to anyone could have certain "magical" effects.... pretty much blurred the line between magic and reality.... i.e. speaking the name of Elbereth could strike fear into the hearts of the Servants of shadow.... certain herbs and flowers having strong healing abilities when prepaired properly.... But know...you don't have a bunch of D&D style Magic Users hanging out at the Magic Guild at every town you stubles across and trading each other scrolls of Enhanced Fireball. If you are looking for that you need to try somewhere else.  

 

Your right - the custimors have made up their mind about Middle Earth as MMO playground.   Its not what they want in long term MMO gameplay.  So be it.  Its their choise and their money.  But it kinda proves my point that this should have been made as a RPG game rather than MMO if the game isn't even delivering the fans of the books and the movies what they were after. 

About the wizards... what a bunch of bullshit.   You do know that the "demi god" of Saruman got stabbed with a knive and fell down of his tower to his death?  What kinda angel is that ?  

The books AND the movies specially talk about Gandalf spending time gathering knowledge about the ring and so on.  They earn their wisdom with learning.  They are NOT born with it. 

The Wisards you talk about are powerfull but are they SO powerfull that no player in MMO version of the game should never get close JUST cause the lore talked about 5 of them ?   Hmm back to making it just RPG game then aren't we ?

How many copies of the books have been sold?  How many have seen the movies?   Obviously making it MMO is a failure in terms of popularity compared to that.   And probably it is cause its not what MMO players are after.  Seems to me its obviously more of a RPG than a MMO scenario.  Or Turbine has made bad job of bringing out Middle Earth in a MMO version.  Thats not just my verdict.  That seems to be the verdict of alot of MMO players.

 The fact the games slowly expanding and still have a large number of the satisfied players from Beta is a good sign its a success in my book. Sure its not a behemoth but its a Middle Earth game. The people playing it may not necessarily be the same people playing wow. So as different demographics they cant be judged by each other. Besides LOTRO hasnt even hit the Korean Market. Even the worse games garner hundreds of thousands of subscribers there. I forsee  Lotro being around for many years to come and being quite profitable to the people who made it. Not to mention I dont expect ill be leaving it anytime soon. Hrmm I will try War though. I have a taste for the WAAAARRRRGHHH!!!

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

 

Well, of course, those are good points. IN order to make an mmo and one that falls in with some of the traditional conventions, you have to add things like trainers. Gotcha, no argument there.

But what i still don't think you are realizing is that things like "eagles being a mount" are not they seem.

Yes, you are correct, in both the movies and the book, The eagles were ridden. But they are not a mount. I say this because I'm trying to differentiate between what one expects when one hears "mount". A mount is an animal that is used expressly for conveyance.

But the eagles are not "animals'. At least not in the sense of beasts. They are actually a race. They did convey many characters in the books but not as a beast. As one that can help a fellow citizen of middle earth.

But to say they are a mount makes it so that they are little more than beasts to carry players to and fro and to hang around the outside of bree flying around and dive bombing people for fun.

They are a race. Might as well have a dwarf carry you around on his back. And, if one would do it then I'm sure that many would like that

So, just because there are/were dragons in middle earth they should also not be mounts because they too were a sort of race. Though I think they were actually created so I need to look that up.

But yes, if one is to make a game one needs to implement things that help make it a game. No argument there. I also have no problem with adding things such as evil races (provided that they are limited to certain areas as orcs did not hang out with their friends in the shire, nor did they pk them. Also they are a bit limited as the fall under Sauron or Saruman's command.

So yes, using an IP as a game world is extremely diffiucult and can result with many problems. I don't think it wrecks the game but allows for the designers to develope unique gameplay elements. Whether Turbine did a good, great, or amazing job is open to debate.

And please keep in mind, I'm not a lore nazi. I won't be commenting on the symbols used or the gear and how it should be, etc. But if one is to play in a particular world then one should play in that particular world. With all it's limitations.

 

Like I said - I dont care about the flying mounts.  But allowing players to ride eagles or dragons does not break any lore.  We are NOT talking about any kinda flying "mounts" at lvl 1.  We would be talking more of some arrangement that was made with the race of eagles to take you to certain points.  That does NOT break the lore more than respawning in total diffrent place cause your "spirit" or "will" ran out does it ?   I dont remember that in the books either...  

You CAN NOT stick to the lore of LOTR in LOTRO as MMO.  Period.   So why are we stuck with a game that many MMO players dont like then?  Why isn't this game with 10 million players like WoW?  Bad MMO features?  Poor gameplay?  Poor graphics?  Its defently NOT based on unknown story is it ?

Too much realism can kill any game out there. The actual medeval times were far different then portrayed in such games. As the companies strive to make everything more realistic, they lose the essential part of the game. It is true that suspension of disbelief must be sustained; however, restricting the game just because of its lore is not the answer.

I have played LOTRO. The large amounts of quests along with slow progression has discouraged me. I would love to see some major implementations come into the game and I may consider returning once more.

I'm inclined to agree with what GrumpyMel said earlier; limitations aren't a bad thing and Turbine's loyality to the lore behind LoTRO is refreshing.

And talk about a great backstory! There are ton's of details for those that enjoy such things and plenty of books and articles to expand the story.

Of course, if you don't enjoy Tolkien's work or Turbine's interpretation of it... you won't like LoTRO. That's okay, different strokes for different folks.

However, while I agree that LoTRO has limitations due to Tolkien's writings, I certainly don't agree that it is "killing" the game. It defines it.

Just my 2 pyreal...

I want to clarify the High Fantasy vs Low Fantasy thing. 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fantasy

 Lord of the Rings is most definitely High Fantasy.  Tokien and C.S Lewis are the originators of the sub genre.
 

 Carry on.