Raiding should be for the sheer excitement and accomplishment, not something that you should HAVE to do in order to compete in any game, whether it be pve or pvp.

Originally posted by todeswulf

I’m sorry no matter how you sugar coat this..funcom has made a conscious decision to follow the Kaplan Raid paradigm, and this is greatly going to affect sales, it already has...between the push back and the new Raid information Gamestop corporate is seeing a glut of cancellations for AoC,  So much so that GS is now going to offer new bonuses to try and recoup some of those cancellations. I know this to be fact because my Wife works for Gamestop Corperate.

Gamestop comprises GS EB and Planet X stores in North America and Canada that is a huge hit to the confidence in the title.

The vast majority of people do not want a Raid based Item centric end game...EVEN Blizzard finally gets this,  just look at the direction WoW has taken over the last two years. The only thing I can figure is Funcom wants to attract the disenfranchised WoW  Uber guilds that were left out in the cold when Blizzard dropped 40 mans.....stupid, stupid move on Funcoms part.  They basically are telling the REH fans of the game to fuck off they would rather have players named  phuckedurmomhard and azzwhippa .

Epic fail I never have seen a game with such positive buzz fall apart like this,  yeah a handful of Basement dwellers are rejoicing, the rest of us are canceling our AoC pre orders and Ordering WAR. 

Funcom:  We Fucked up AO, and were currently fucking up AoC. 

But that aside, Where are you drawing comparisons? You're mentioning 40-mans....something AoC won#t even have to begin with. And I repeat the simple statement, that nothing in the announcement tells me that raiding will be the only viable option for End-Game. That's something the major flame-people here on this forum blare out constantly these days, but I have yet to see any proof or even hint of that.

I can agree more with the poster that replied to my last post, saying that there might be a certain queasiness about FC now paying attention to raiding and thus wondering if they can manage to juggle their time between the different end-game activities, I share in those which was why I was partially glad the delay came along (partially, mind you ^^).

I agree. WoW was a great game even when it had no raiding content. You don't absolutely need raiding to have a great game. You don't need PvP either. Or crafting. Or questing. There were and still are MMOs out there without certain game elements, without being considered incomplete or lacking. It all comes down to implementation. This is an unknown factor in this game for now. It's natural for people to try and foretell future experiences based on their past ones.

As for WoW, they didn't fix raiding with the expansion (actually almost 1 year after the expansion). They fixed PvP. They finally managed to separate it from PvE in terms of gear. They still need to do something with the constant respecs required to those who want to participate both in PvP and PvE. Also the raids didn't become easier when the number dropped to 24 from 40. They become much much harder. Every raid spot counted, no dead weight was allowed (at least not in Illidan-able guilds).

I believe that you can have group content much harder than raid content (assuming that in both cases you had people skilled to the class/role they picked). The problem is that group content is seen as a casual or entry to teaming activity, so most developers design with these people primarily in mind. Casuals are not expected to raid in anything but the most forgiving dungeons. So again developers design dungeons with the misconception that raiding is only for the hardcore.

I wouldn't mind if AoC had no raiding at launch. I would mind if the group dungeon content was only entry level. There is much that we don't know at this point (especially the feeling of the game), so it's hard to tell how much of a commitment (if any) the 8 "dungeons" will require out of us.

Originally posted by Sharajat

I personally enjoy raiding.  So... works for me. 

BTW, I'd raid with no epics, and most raiders I talk to agree. Its about the working together, and seeing the content, and enjoying yourself with a bunch of cool people. 

Yes, little baubles to say you've beaten the Temple of Relentless Doom are fun, but overall, I would be perhaps happier if the raiding rewards were just neat mounts, pets, novelty items, etc.  That would almost make it more fun, IMHO. 

The items are just there so you can work out a progression, and so each week the attempts become a little easier.  Its a decent system, even if I wish there was a way to quick-equip guildies.  If you can really get raid-quality gear from crafting, you actually may be able to quick-equip guildies, and bypass the need to regrind old instances.

 

BTW, to all the haters -  raiding is the only form of content unique to MMOs.  Partying has been done in non MMOs (Guild Wars and Diablo, notably, but also games like Halo), PvP is done all the time in non-MMOs, single player RPGs have the solo content, but only MMOs have raids.  So basically, if you don't like raids, maybe its not US who are playing the wrong sort of game, neh? 

One of the smartest post I seen in this thread and it needed to be reposted.

Originally posted by ArcheusCross

 

 

You sound like you like wow. :) Actually it's a really good topic. Answer this, why should a pvper (one part of the game) be forced to do raiding (a different part of the game) in order to succeed in his part of the game?

Raids arent the evil, but tier based raids are. A raid should be the highlight of a story and not tool for a self-sufficient progression ladder. A raid should be a 24 people encounter and never, ever depend on item progression. This is alienating a vast number of paying customers. Unfortunetely not having raid progression also alienates players. Raiders have a higher rate of fluctuation though.

As "casual" i am locked out from tier based raid from day one. There is either froced group crawling through the tiers or nothing. No fridaynight raid, no highlight, null. Either 100% or nothing.

EQ2 introduced tier raids with the RoK expansion and the result is devasting. I have nothing agianst riaders, i do know  a few quite well. But with tier raids you dont meet them anymore. They meet at raid time, zone in and log out. They are no longer part of the life on the server. Another FOTM design element thats haunting the players.

Originally posted by Xasapis

I agree. WoW was a great game even when it had no raiding content. You don't absolutely need raiding to have a great game. You don't need PvP either. Or crafting. Or questing. There were and still are MMOs out there without certain game elements, without being considered incomplete or lacking. It all comes down to implementation.

The key to a great MMO is making it fun and unique for every style of player. Soloer, raider, PvPer, (etc.)should be able to choose their game from a great MMO's content. Personally, I like to explore and socialize. The PvP aspect of DAoC was great for a while too. If I find a game that can give me a dose of all this with another dose of mini games to help me pass the time.. they will get my money.

Just  my 2 cents.

Since this thread is still going I guess I'll jump back in.  There is a developer interview transcript up at tentonhammer now that I thought had some information that is pertinent to this discussion.

Here's something that is slightly off the main topic but I thought it was interesting.  Remember the idea about soul corruption sending casters to hell?  That was actually one of the cooler ideas the devs had.  It was something that even had a certain roleplay/immerssion feel to it which you don't see very often these days.  Well they took it out.  And guess why?  Because it was inconvenient for raiders.

Here is the quote:

"Q: Sending yourself to hell? Is that still in the works?

Gaute: That was one of the things we saw people not responding to favorably to - when they got put to hell during a raid."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I just thought that was interesting.  The raiders didn't like it so out it goes.  Who are they making this game for again?  To be fair I'm sure there would be plenty of non-raiders who wouldn't like it either.  But it says something about the devs that the reason they took it out was to please the raiding crowd.

It also says something about raiders.  They are always spouting about "challenge" and how they like for things to be difficult.  But THEY are the ones who drive the dumbing down of games more than any other group (my opinion of course). 

In regards to raid loot distribution they had this to say:

"In terms of the raid, it's the raid leader that can distribute. So there isn't any "token" system in place for handling raid achievements."

-----------------------------------------------------------

If the reader doesn't see the significance of this I'm not going to spend a lot of time explaining it but basically a token system is a way to ensure that part-time raiders (people who can only raid occasionally) will get something for their trouble).  Not having a system of that sort is simply bowing to the ultra-hardcore raiders.

Here is a quote regarding the amount of raid content at launch in case there was some doubt about how much of their time has been going into developing raid content: 

"We will have twenty plus raid targets at launch."

--------------------------------------------------------

For people who wondered about the item-centricity question and the need to "gear up" this one should help to clear things up:

"We are planning to have an item-based raid leveling system which gears you towards taking the next level of raids in place."

-------------------------------------------------

And this one:

"Evan: Yes. Currently there's tiers of raids and raid loot planned of increasing strength that will basically allow you to start working on the next tier."

------------------------------------------------------------

And in the interest of honest reporting I need to add this one:

"They have a very interesting and creative solution going on with the way that raid drops versus non-raid drops works and from I've seen the balance of that and how it impacts PvE non-raiding versus raiding is actually very solid."

--------------------------------------------------------

That last one sounds encouraging but they don't bother to explain it at all.  What does it mean?  Nothing really, not without some clarifacation.

Raiding itself is a great idea to encourage group achievements and adventure. When raiding becomes a necessity, then you are hindering those who cannot raid on a 24/7 basis. I take me for example. I work 50 hours a week, make great money, am 31 yrs old. I have a wife, 1yr old son, and alot of responsibilities. But i do try to work in some game time late night...usually from about 10 to midnight. In WoW, this was a major disadvantage for me. My friends and guildies, who i have known for over 6 yrs now, most had the ability to raid a dungeon 3x a week. Not including a pick up group or 2 on the weekends. They were all decked out in the best gear.

I would be able to maybe stay for 1 whole raid, spending 3-4 hours on the computer is a near impossibility for me, but i like to compete and enjoy a game. So while raiding itself is a fantastic idea, the implimentation and gear achieved through it are virtually unaccessible for me. If they manage to balance this so that raiders do not have the top of the line items, then great! But there should be some sort of recognition for these same people who have the ability to do a raid, whether it be a trophy, badge, title, etc....or even a decorative armor attachment or something. But to make the best gear for pve or pvp drop from said dungeons, severely limits us who don't have the ability to make the game a 2nd job.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

 

Since this thread is still going I guess I'll jump back in.  There is a developer interview transcript up at tentonhammer now that I thought had some information that is pertinent to this discussion.

Here's something that is slightly off the main topic but I thought it was interesting.  Remember the idea about soul corruption sending casters to hell?  That was actually one of the cooler ideas the devs had.  It was something that even had a certain roleplay/immerssion feel to it which you don't see very often these days.  Well they took it out.  And guess why?  Because it was inconvenient for raiders.

Here is the quote:

"Q: Sending yourself to hell? Is that still in the works?

Gaute: That was one of the things we saw people not responding to favorably to - when they got put to hell during a raid."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I just thought that was interesting.  The raiders didn't like it so out it goes.  Who are they making this game for again?  To be fair I'm sure there would be plenty of non-raiders who wouldn't like it either.  But it says something about the devs that the reason they took it out was to please the raiding crowd.

It also says something about raiders.  They are always spouting about "challenge" and how they like for things to be difficult.  But THEY are the ones who drive the dumbing down of games more than any other group (my opinion of course). 

 

In regards to raid loot distribution they had this to say:

"In terms of the raid, it's the raid leader that can distribute. So there isn't any "token" system in place for handling raid achievements."

-----------------------------------------------------------

If the reader doesn't see the significance of this I'm not going to spend a lot of time explaining it but basically a token system is a way to ensure that part-time raiders (people who can only raid occasionally) will get something for their trouble).  Not having a system of that sort is simply bowing to the ultra-hardcore raiders.

 

Here is a quote regarding the amount of raid content at launch in case there was some doubt about how much of their time has been going into developing raid content: 

"We will have twenty plus raid targets at launch."

--------------------------------------------------------

For people who wondered about the item-centricity question and the need to "gear up" this one should help to clear things up:

"We are planning to have an item-based raid leveling system which gears you towards taking the next level of raids in place."

-------------------------------------------------

And this one:

"Evan: Yes. Currently there's tiers of raids and raid loot planned of increasing strength that will basically allow you to start working on the next tier."

------------------------------------------------------------

 

And in the interest of honest reporting I need to add this one:

"They have a very interesting and creative solution going on with the way that raid drops versus non-raid drops works and from I've seen the balance of that and how it impacts PvE non-raiding versus raiding is actually very solid."

--------------------------------------------------------

That last one sounds encouraging but they don't bother to explain it at all.  What does it mean?  Nothing really, not without some clarifacation.

To be fair, it seems that there is still very much up in the air about alot of the high end content... including raid loot. There was noone from the high end department at the Q&A you read. Im not even certain if it was the whole transcript, as it was nearly a 2 hour question-fest.

Having the video on my computer right now, I followed along with your quotes and reasoning. All I can say, is: Maybe you should watch the video. It lends a different light on a few of your quotes. Having heard them in context it makes all the difference.

I would be more worried about the game being finished and polished 1-20, than a raid and loot system they dont even have set up yet.

Ill try to post the link for the Q&A I DL'd.

EDIT*

Here is part one of the Q&A. Give it a glance.

http://community.ageofconan.com/wsp/conan/frontend.cgi?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss&utm_content=front_page_news&func=publish.show&template=content&func_id=2201&table=CONTENT

I had a long post,but i figured why bother to intellects who can't grasp a simple topic?

i'll spell it out for you so it's easier to grasp>>>you do NOT,i repeat do NOT need raiding to enjoy any reason or aspect for playing a MMORPG.Raiding is EXACTLY the same as normal grouping to wich in most good games you can also form alliances and achieve the exact same thing.

Raid bosses are no different than normal mobs ,except they have more hitpoints and defense,WOW isn't that ingenuitive? lol.

raiding takes more time and alienates in alot of cases friends/family and OTHER guildmates who cannot make it.Soon to be followed up with promises of helping those who missed,with follow ups of excuses why they all of a sudden can't.

IN nornal grouping ,if you are fighting a VERY hard mob and lose a healer ,your group is dead.In a raid you can have in reality 90% of your raid die and still get credit for the drop or quest/mission whatever the reason was for killing it.So if anything raiding has been stereotyped as being elite,when in reality it's more a noobish setup that any noob can tag along and get credit.

In closing let me repeat,for those who already forgot because they are set on arguing something i have said>>>  YOU DO NOT need a raid to enjoy a game.There is NOTHING a raid offers that can't be done in a normal alliance or a normal group of friends or  family.Nothing!

item list[raiding]

1 enter instance[maybe]

2 kill mobs along the way to boss[again maybe]

3 possibility of death [maybe]

4 find boss/mob/s

5 BUFF up and attack mob/s.[again possible death,most likely ]

6 recieve elite drop[maybe]or get quest/mission credit[maybe]

umm let me see if anything on check list isn't already done in any normal situation? nope notta nothing.

Originally posted by Wizardry

IN nornal grouping ,if you are fighting a VERY hard mob and lose a healer ,your group is dead.In a raid you can have in reality 90% of your raid die and still get credit for the drop or quest/mission whatever the reason was for killing it.So if anything raiding has been stereotyped as being elite,when in reality it's more a noobish setup that any noob can tag along and get credit.

You've never really raided anything difficult then. 72 man EQ1 raids against bosses that have never been beaten on any server? Nothing "noob" about that. Takes far more skill than joe group of 6 just swinging away one mob at a time.

I'm no longer a raider, but I keep seeing this "raiding is easier than grouping" logic, and well, that isn't true.

The biggest limiting factor regarding raiding is coordination, in and out of the game. That's the most difficult part about it, provided people have a pretty good grasp of what they're supposed to do with their avatar in-game.

And Wizardry, the exact same arguments you expressed when comparing grouping vs raiding can be equally valid when comparing soloing vs grouping. Does that mean that soloing is the way to go? Maybe, maybe not.

I still believe that in an ideal situation it would be best if the option is there, than lacking the option altogether. Provided of course that the option is well thought and well implemented (which is another discussion altogether).

Originally posted by Sharajat

Once again, why is it unbearable hell to raid? It's not unbearable to raid but is to raid grind to get your guild geared.

How do you get these ideas?  Do you dislike talking to other people over Vent?Yes Especially when 80% of the conversations are Arnold/Chuck noris comments (along with all the other crap that is in VoIP doing nothing but slowing down the info people need for the next encounter.

  Perhaps you hate it when you accomplish something new in the game? Not at all but the key word is to acomplish "something" Not spend 4 hours raiding for the leader to say Oh we will save the boss for tomorrow cause x,y,z has to get going. I been waiting 4 hours to see the main boss then you stop the raid :/ WTF

Is it really so bad to have to coordinate with others, listen to them, and follow orders,Umm kindof this is a game not the military or my office I listen Follow orders all day and my job title is Actually an HTML Coordinator. So no I don't want to be forced to do what I do all day at work in my entertainment. Not to mention that trying to coordinate anything with a prepubesant 12 yrs old afflicted by a.d.d that cant stand still for more then 2 mins keeps whiping the group cause he doesn't pay attention sucks ass.

instead of doing your own thing no matter what? In essance once a fight starts I do do my own thing its called nuking(mage here) and staying alive I don't need someone telling me to move my toon away from a fire breathing dragon every 5 seconds and screaming about it if I lag up or have something else I'm paying attention to distract me.

 

What part of raiding is this unbearable hell? 

All of the above and the fact that I wait 30 min for some yahhoo to go piss every 5 mins.

But the items I mentioned above are the things I find lame as hell while raiding.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

 

"They have a very interesting and creative solution going on with the way that raid drops versus non-raid drops works and from I've seen the balance of that and how it impacts PvE non-raiding versus raiding is actually very solid."

--------------------------------------------------------

That last one sounds encouraging but they don't bother to explain it at all.  What does it mean?  Nothing really, not without some clarifacation.

He said also something like: We also have two lower level raid zones, but we probably respec them to 80 before launch.

yepp, this all is a huge tribute to "hardcore raiders".

And yes, there is hope for others. It might be quite some fun to build your own build with feats, crafted, quested and group drop items.  It depends a bit on how gems will be.  I am doing it in EQ2 while waiting for AoC. I left mainstream,  try out mixtures of differents sets and  try out  items that arent form my class. I try to balance them with my feats. That way you can build nice hybrids who are real fun to play. The good thing in AoC is that almost all classes are hybrid. Its fun to collect items for either side of your hybrid. Depending on your role in group you can switch items and become more DPS or more heal for example. Yes, i still have hope.

Originally posted by eugam

 

Aww.. Neanderthal.. you are growing old.

That's true.  But there is a huge crop of young mmorpg gamers who are starting to hit adulthood so even if I succumb to alzhiemers I have no doubt that there will be plenty of people to carry the torch of liberty from raid-centricity.  

Now...where did I put that cat...?  Let's see, I was microwaving my dentures when I let him in.....I remember that he was wet and cold from the snow and I wanted to warm him up....hmm.  Oh well, I'll find him eventually.

So, anyway...there was another thing I was wanting to clear up but with my encroaching senility I can't remember where I read about it.  I'll mention it anyway and see if anyone wants to challenge it.  This goes back to the subject of PvP equipment.

People keep saying that items have separate PvP and PvE stats.  That is not correct.  PvE and PvP stats on items are additive.  Not separate.

It works like this:

Sword A has 100 damage (PvE) and 10 damage (PvP).  It does 100 damage in PvE.  But the damage it does in PvP is the PvE damage + the PvP damage.  So in PvP it does 110 damage.

Follow me so far?  (PvE stat) + (PvP stat) = (total PvP stats)

Now, given the "item based" raid progression I wonder if I have to spell out what this means for PvP.  I suppose I should just in case.

Ok, let's say that before any raid loot starts contaminating a server there are two best generally available breastplates for PvP.

Breastplate A: aquired through PvE.  It has 70 AC (PvE) and 30 AC (PvP) for a total of 100 AC in PvP.

Breastplate B:  aquired through the as yet undisclosed method of PvP rewards.  It has 30 AC (PvE) and 70 AC (PvP) for a total of 100 AC in PvP.

Ok, but now raid loots starts coming into the picture.  Let's say that the first tier raid drop breastplate has no PvP stats at all.  But it has 150 AC (PvE).  It will still have 150 AC in PvP because of the way this works.

And raid loot is progressive, just as you would expect, so these numbers are going to keep getting bigger and bigger and BIGGER.

Still with me there guys?  Do you see what this means?  Anyone who still wants to argue about item-centricity might as well give up.  Even assuming that they do have some way of upgrading PvP equipment by doing PvP (probably some tacky, half assed arena crap if there is anything at all) there will still have to be some sort of ridiculous grind involved to "keep up with the Jones".  Because the numbers on raid equipment WILL translate directly into PvP.  And the numbers will keep getting bigger and bigger.

Now I'm going to have to see if anyone wants to challenge this.  Don't make me get my quotes guys!  I'll do it, I swear I'll do it!   

Interesting hypothetical post. You based your whole, hard to challenge *cough* post on numbers that you got from where exactly? My best guess, pure speculation. So in the same manner that you're speculating that things will work this way, others are entitled to speculate that they work differently.

Lets go back to WoW and see how they did manage to separate PvP from PvE gear. I suppose they could make a system where gear could carry both stats, but that's a technicality and a developer choice. You see, the reason why PvP gear are superior to PvE gear in a PvP situation is because when you get hit by the same weapon, different damage is applied. So a tier2 PvP guy will always, always be superior to a tier2 PvE guy in a PvP situation, if we just take into account the gear involved.

You can argue that it took Blizzard 3-4 years to balance and separate PvE from PvP end game and I would agree that it will be harder for a fresh MMO to pull it through from the very start. I do however expect them to keep their eyes open on what others are doing and adjust and improve on what's working out there.

Originally posted by Neanderthal

 

Originally posted by eugam

 

Aww.. Neanderthal.. you are growing old.

That's true.  But there is a huge crop of young mmorpg gamers who are starting to hit adulthood so even if I succumb to alzhiemers I have no doubt that there will be plenty of people to carry the torch of liberty from raid-centricity.  

 

Now...where did I put that cat...?  Let's see, I was microwaving my dentures when I let him in.....I remember that he was wet and cold from the snow and I wanted to warm him up....hmm.  Oh well, I'll find him eventually.

So, anyway...there was another thing I was wanting to clear up but with my encroaching senility I can't remember where I read about it.  I'll mention it anyway and see if anyone wants to challenge it.  This goes back to the subject of PvP equipment.

People keep saying that items have separate PvP and PvE stats.  That is not correct.  PvE and PvP stats on items are additive.  Not separate.

It works like this:

Sword A has 100 damage (PvE) and 10 damage (PvP).  It does 100 damage in PvE.  But the damage it does in PvP is the PvE damage + the PvP damage.  So in PvP it does 110 damage.

Follow me so far?  (PvE stat) + (PvP stat) = (total PvP stats)

Now, given the "item based" raid progression I wonder if I have to spell out what this means for PvP.  I suppose I should just in case.

Ok, let's say that before any raid loot starts contaminating a server there are two best generally available breastplates for PvP.

Breastplate A: aquired through PvE.  It has 70 AC (PvE) and 30 AC (PvP) for a total of 100 AC in PvP.

Breastplate B:  aquired through the as yet undisclosed method of PvP rewards.  It has 30 AC (PvE) and 70 AC (PvP) for a total of 100 AC in PvP.

Ok, but now raid loots starts coming into the picture.  Let's say that the first tier raid drop breastplate has no PvP stats at all.  But it has 150 AC (PvE).  It will still have 150 AC in PvP because of the way this works.

And raid loot is progressive, just as you would expect, so these numbers are going to keep getting bigger and bigger and BIGGER.

Still with me there guys?  Do you see what this means?  Anyone who still wants to argue about item-centricity might as well give up.  Even assuming that they do have some way of upgrading PvP equipment by doing PvP (probably some tacky, half assed arena crap if there is anything at all) there will still have to be some sort of ridiculous grind involved to "keep up with the Jones".  Because the numbers on raid equipment WILL translate directly into PvP.  And the numbers will keep getting bigger and bigger.

Now I'm going to have to see if anyone wants to challenge this.  Don't make me get my quotes guys!  I'll do it, I swear I'll do it!   

I would really love to know where you got this information from. Really. Yes, I am forcing you to bring out the quotes. I want to know where you got the examples and where you got the proof that AoC will handle Raid-Loot and PvP-Loot (and not to forget Crafted Items) in this particular way.  Sorry, but without proof of your quotes, I'm gonna say the same thing as the poster before me. Pure speculation.

Gahhh...you people.  Make an old man do your research for you.  Ok fine.  Here is a snippet that I found, strangely enough on this very board in the thread that Baikal linked earlier. 

From Athelan:

"...we decided to have combat be a two layer system with PvP combat stats that are additive ontop of PvE stats."

If you don't trust it because of the way I quoted it go read through the thread yourself.  I know there's more because that isn't the thing I remembered but that's a start.  I'll try to find some more on this tomorrow although you people COULD do a little research of your own you know. 

would there be -pvp stats for endgame pve gear just to even out the pvp playing-field? seems that the main thing about this pvp vs pve argument is that during pvp, top end-game guilds will have superior gear, and thus making it unfair to the average pvper. if super 250ACpve breastplate from the end-game boss has -130ACpvp,  then during pvp that armor would have a 120AC rating. making it on par with the average joe, and thus being fair. makes sense to me rather than adding pvp stats to top tier pve gear. maybe thats how they r doing it.

Originally posted by Sophist

 

Originally posted by Sharajat

Once again, why is it unbearable hell to raid? It's not unbearable to raid but is to raid grind to get your guild geared.   Which may or may not be necessary in AoC.  It is in WoW, because you need items for so many slots, it requires random drops to get the items, and there are few/no crafted alternatives that could allow you to power-gear new members for the raiding.   I see no complaint with raiding here, just raiding IN A SPECIFIC GAME. 

How do you get these ideas?  Do you dislike talking to other people over Vent?Yes Especially when 80% of the conversations are Arnold/Chuck noris comments (along with all the other crap that is in VoIP doing nothing but slowing down the info people need for the next encounter. Then play a different game.  Many guilds don't have that problem.  Stop playing with 12 year olds. 

  Perhaps you hate it when you accomplish something new in the game? Not at all but the key word is to acomplish "something" Not spend 4 hours raiding for the leader to say Oh we will save the boss for tomorrow cause x,y,z has to get going. I been waiting 4 hours to see the main boss then you stop the raid :/ WTF  If the raid is scheduled for a specific time, why are you surprised it stops at that time?  Many people have jobs, or other real life responsibilities.  If you want raiding for the entire night until the boss is down, find a guild that supports it.  Otherwise, you are complaining about your specific experiences, not raiding. 

Is it really so bad to have to coordinate with others, listen to them, and follow orders,Umm kindof this is a game not the military or my office I listen Follow orders all day and my job title is Actually an HTML Coordinator. So no I don't want to be forced to do what I do all day at work in my entertainment. Not to mention that trying to coordinate anything with a prepubesant 12 yrs old afflicted by a.d.d that cant stand still for more then 2 mins keeps whiping the group cause he doesn't pay attention sucks ass.  So... stop raiding with 12 year olds.  Many guilds have none.  As for following orders and coordinating, many people find that enjoyable.  See, Counterstrike, TF2, almost any serious team FPS game, etc.  So even outside of raiding, many people play in that style.  If you prefer soloing, or small group play because you absolutely CANNOT listen to someone else and work with others, you are the minority.  Deal. 

instead of doing your own thing no matter what? In essance once a fight starts I do do my own thing its called nuking(mage here) and staying alive I don't need someone telling me to move my toon away from a fire breathing dragon every 5 seconds and screaming about it if I lag up or have something else I'm paying attention to distract me.  So... you screw up.  Then you expect others not to tell you you're screwing up.  What the hell?  Do you actually want to get better?  Or are you so certain you're the best that you think you can't get better?  Trust me, everyone screws up.  A good player listens to others, learns from his mistakes, and stops screwing up.  A bad one whines about people telling him not to stand in the fire breathing dragon's sight path.  Yeah, that's smart. 

 

What part of raiding is this unbearable hell? 

All of the above and the fact that I wait 30 min for some yahhoo to go piss every 5 mins.

 

Um, most guilds have scheduled breaks after bosses for about 5 minutes to take care of business.  If your guild doesn't, stop raiding with 12 year olds. 

To the above statements this is only my opinion and I don't know if this is how others feel. I did read most of this tread and am on the fence about the subject myself.

 

But the items I mentioned above are the things I find lame as hell while raiding.

So?  Just find a good raiding guild, and they're not problems.  Really.