Originally posted by singsofdeath

First, taking the harshness of PvP out of EVE would render the game pointless. The whole game is constructed in that it allows players to build and to achieve something with their time...and to lose that when they get careless. That is part of the "realism" of EVE and from my time in the game, that is what most of the players love about it (and I doubt that has changed since I stopped ^^). 

I should mention that Ultima Online, when faced with non-PvP competition that was eating it's lunch, made a non-PvP server.  This crashed the PvP server as everyone flooded to the safe zone to escape the gankers and griefers.  If EVE made a non PvP server everyone huddled in 0.5 space or above would leave it, and the "main" server would be a ghost town, just like with UO. 

For people who want a fun game, just skip EVE and wait for the competitioon to come out.  EVE's devs will never make it into a good game.  Pass EVE by and leave the PvP types to their game.

Originally posted by markoraos

 

Originally posted by Lordmonkus

Yes it would actually. A pve type server would take a lot of dev resources away from the current server. A pve server would require a complete rework and tuning of the entire game unviverse where all that time would be much better spent working on the incredible new content that CCP wants to bring in to the game over time.

 

What PvE server, who's talking about a PvE server? Who's crazy here? I never mentioned anything about  any PvE servers because I'm totally for PvP. I'm talking about a possible rules tweak to make PvP happen more often!

Read the post above the one you quoted from me. That is what my post was in response to.

Just copy the server code onto another batch of hardware and that's it. How can this in any way possible take away from devs' time?

If there are any rules changes for the server I'd appreciate it if they made possible buying insurance for modules as well and having the new boat fitted for you instead of straight cash that you have to spend time reconstructing your ship. Economy and insurance rates may easily be tweaked to cover that change.

If insurance was applied to modules as well and if ship loss was nothing then the economy would collapse and inflation would go insane since there was no money lost, thus making the vets truly out of reach and untouchable by the new player. Just in case you don't know, the cost of items have actually come down over the last year because of the way CCP watches and handles the economy. Tech 2 ships and modules are now very affordable.

However, I can live with the game ruleset as it is - if there is a new server so us new players can play the game without getting hopelessly pwned through the time-based skill system, an oold old economy which determines the quality of your gear, and then finally harshly punished by unforgiving death penalties.

As it has been said many times before already, just because you will never catch up in terms of total skillpoints you can easily catch up in skillpoints where they are needed to fit whatever role you wish to play in the game and then from there you can diversify your skill set as you wish.

I'm a noob here and I only played EvE trial. This post is my own and I'm telling you what's keeping me and a few of my pals from joining up. I might be dumb but this is how I feel and I won't join EVE as it is now - this is mine and my friends' subjective and highly personal opininon. This may not mean much to you but I'm sure that developers wouldn't mind a few hundred thousand new subscribers. A new server wouldn't touch you guys. You can still have your own universe where you accumulated your 3 years of skill points and the corresponding amount of isk.

Fine, that's your opinion but I believe your opinion is formed off of mistaken perceptions of how the game universe in Eve actually works. You are right about CCP wishing to have more subscribers but they do not want them at the cost of destroying their vision of Eve.

How much isk do you think that I as a vet of the game have ? Billions ? Currently I have around 400 mil total isk plus assets. To a new player I am sure this sounds like a great deal of money but it really isn't very much at all compared to the players out there that do have billions. The reason I don't have that much isk is because like you I hate to farm, it's the reason I left WoW. The farming in that game is beyond stupid to me.

However, just imagine when you first logged into your fresh new universe called EVE Online... all yours for the taking. How would you feel if you suddenly realized that it's been already completely taken and that you'll never amount to anything since the old sharks have grown some very large teeth there... Just try to imagine how a new player feels upon entering EVE online universe now and how it differs from your first experience.

All a new server (even if it's the exact same rules) would do is just give people a fresh start for a couple of months until the universe is all under control of corps and alliances and then you would be back in the same position as it is now, new players coming in would be feeling the same way you describe now so then what ? Make another server again ? Now we're splitting up the player base too much and thus destroying another thing about Eve that makes it so unique  in the over crowded cookie cutter mmo market, the single universe.

Originally posted by Kyleran

OP, I won't lie to you.  You are correct in that you do need to PVE grind to earn the ISK to fund your PVP habits.  That's a core mechanic.  The more efficient you are at earning ISK (there are many ways to make ISK besides mining) the move PVP you can focus on.

Realize this, PVP in EVE means making sure you play smart and to the best of your ability, you make sure you never lose.  This isn't a game for folks who grew up in WOW where it doesn't matter if you throw caution to the wind and kill until you die, then rinse and repeat.

You work very hard to make sure you have superior numbers, skills (and personal skill) and gear to win more than you lose.  It's a different mind-set than many folks are used to, and not for everyone.

You don't have to fly the big ships to have fun, but I assure you, within 6 months you could be in a Sniper Battleship and a major factor in fleet engagements.  True, you want to fly Carriers/Dreadnaughts, expect to play for a year or more, but hey, what else would you shoot for?

You can become an good pilot in smaller ships quite quickly, I have a Corpmate who flies only Interceptors and he averages between 2-8 kills per day.  Most of his fights are in low sec and solo, and he rarely loses.  (Good thing too, because his ship/implants cost about 250m ISK)

And one more thing, if you really don't want to PVE to earn ISK, you don't have to. EVE has a CCP approved method of buying monthly timecards (or 3 months) and trading them for in-game ISK.  I have many friends who do this because they have more cash than time to spend doing PVE.  Purists might hate CCP for making this possible, but I think its an excellent idea for those who just don't want to PVE.

 

 

Thaks for the honest response there.

So... according to the purists I'm less of a PvP-er because I don't want earn my PvP time through PvE? I'm less of a PvP-er because I want to spend as much time as possible doing PvP rather than anything else?

There is something mighty fishy with that logic there...

I'll leave you guys to think about what you really mean by "PvP".

Originally posted by Kulthos

 

 

Originally posted by singsofdeath

First, taking the harshness of PvP out of EVE would render the game pointless. The whole game is constructed in that it allows players to build and to achieve something with their time...and to lose that when they get careless. That is part of the "realism" of EVE and from my time in the game, that is what most of the players love about it (and I doubt that has changed since I stopped ^^). 

If you want to achieve something with your time, stop playing computer games.  Improve your education, put extra time into your career, spend more time wih your children, but don't think that you are going to ACHIEVE anything in a goofy video game. 

 

 

 

I should mention that Ultima Online, when faced with non-PvP competition that was eating it's lunch, made a non-PvP server.  This crashed the PvP server as everyone flooded to the safe zone to escape the gankers and griefers.  If EVE made a non PvP server everyone huddled in 0.5 space or above would leave it, and the "main" server would be a ghost town, just like with UO. 

For people who want a fun game, just skip EVE and wait for the competitioon to come out.  EVE's devs will never make it into a good game.  Pass EVE by and leave the PvP types to their game.

Originally posted by Kulthos

 

 

Originally posted by singsofdeath

First, taking the harshness of PvP out of EVE would render the game pointless. The whole game is constructed in that it allows players to build and to achieve something with their time...and to lose that when they get careless. That is part of the "realism" of EVE and from my time in the game, that is what most of the players love about it (and I doubt that has changed since I stopped ^^). 

If you want to achieve something with your time, stop playing computer games.  Improve your education, put extra time into your career, spend more time wih your children, but don't think that you are going to ACHIEVE anything in a goofy video game. 

 

 

 

I should mention that Ultima Online, when faced with non-PvP competition that was eating it's lunch, made a non-PvP server.  This crashed the PvP server as everyone flooded to the safe zone to escape the gankers and griefers.  If EVE made a non PvP server everyone huddled in 0.5 space or above would leave it, and the "main" server would be a ghost town, just like with UO. 

For people who want a fun game, just skip EVE and wait for the competitioon to come out.  EVE's devs will never make it into a good game.  Pass EVE by and leave the PvP types to their game.

Yet it has many people who defend it...

It's a game for a niche crowd and I appreciate CCP for continuing to design it for that crowd instead of trying to appeal to the masses.

Originally posted by markoraos

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

OP, I won't lie to you.  You are correct in that you do need to PVE grind to earn the ISK to fund your PVP habits.  That's a core mechanic.  The more efficient you are at earning ISK (there are many ways to make ISK besides mining) the move PVP you can focus on.

Realize this, PVP in EVE means making sure you play smart and to the best of your ability, you make sure you never lose.  This isn't a game for folks who grew up in WOW where it doesn't matter if you throw caution to the wind and kill until you die, then rinse and repeat.

You work very hard to make sure you have superior numbers, skills (and personal skill) and gear to win more than you lose.  It's a different mind-set than many folks are used to, and not for everyone.

You don't have to fly the big ships to have fun, but I assure you, within 6 months you could be in a Sniper Battleship and a major factor in fleet engagements.  True, you want to fly Carriers/Dreadnaughts, expect to play for a year or more, but hey, what else would you shoot for?

You can become an good pilot in smaller ships quite quickly, I have a Corpmate who flies only Interceptors and he averages between 2-8 kills per day.  Most of his fights are in low sec and solo, and he rarely loses.  (Good thing too, because his ship/implants cost about 250m ISK)

And one more thing, if you really don't want to PVE to earn ISK, you don't have to. EVE has a CCP approved method of buying monthly timecards (or 3 months) and trading them for in-game ISK.  I have many friends who do this because they have more cash than time to spend doing PVE.  Purists might hate CCP for making this possible, but I think its an excellent idea for those who just don't want to PVE.

 

 

 

Thaks for the honest response there.

So... according to the purists I'm less of a PvP-er because I don't want earn my PvP time through PvE? I'm less of a PvP-er because I want to spend as much time as possible doing PvP rather than anything else?

There is something mighty fishy with that logic there...

I'll leave you guys to think about what you really mean by "PvP".

I love EVE online to death, but I think a lot of people are missing the point that EVE PVP more than skill or anything else is determined by lag. Especially in fleet engagements.

Also, I dislike the time-based leveling system as well, and think it wouldn't be exceptionally unfair if they provided say a 25% bonus speed in time leveling skills so long as you were logged-in using modules requiring the skills, or a ship that is a pre-requisite.

Originally posted by markoraos

 

 

Thaks for the honest response there.

So... according to the purists I'm less of a PvP-er because I don't want earn my PvP time through PvE? I'm less of a PvP-er because I want to spend as much time as possible doing PvP rather than anything else?

There is something mighty fishy with that logic there...

I'll leave you guys to think about what you really mean by "PvP".

ISK and your own time lost from a PvP loss is *part* of EVE's PvP.

It's what forces you to be smart about what you do. It's what makes fights intense if you risk ships that cost you more. It makes creating traps and out thinking enemy players important since they'll more than likely try to run away if they're in an expensive ship. That means expensive ship kills are that much better as they're generally harder to achieve.

Or perhaps you're the one in the expensive ship! It forces you to think about your own survival instead of just jumping into any and all fights. It makes you *choose* your fights. It's what demoralizes enemies into giving up, the only way to beat another alliance in the game. If they can easily replace all the ships they lose, they'll never give up, and you'll never win.

Regardless, there's a lot of ways to make money if you're clever, which is something EVE rewards generously. My 'grind' is 30 minutes every couple of days and I nearly have 2 billion in isk after 10 months in game.

If Dev's today have learned anything its that POST Launch changing the formula of the game that makes it Popular with its current subscribers (they're obviously turning a rather adequate profit to be able to maintain and continously update the game after all this time) is a BAD BAD THING.

Take SWG For instance.   Although the game didn't take off with nearly as many subscribers as people thought it would the ones it did keep were extremely happy bugs n all.  It was a sandbox game that needed some fixing to make its long life span viable.   Instead the big wigs saw how popular another game was and changed their entire model.  Over a years worth of hard work and dedication literally wiped out with the simple push of a button.  It destroyed SWG's population and its never recovered, infact its created die hard haters.

If EvE was suddenly to offer more servers people would quickly jump on the 'move' bandwagon destroying entire economies and even long standing Corporations.  There's no avoiding this when you have multiple servers people MOVE or relocate all the time, look at other games wehre the moment transfers happened guilds were split in half, economies were destroyed, and good players lost.    EvE which is sorely dedicated to its current populace would NEVER recover from changing its Model of One World, One Server.

I'm not that big of hard core pvper, nor am I a fan of EvE but I am a gamer to the heart and the utter destruction of such a unique game would be incredibly sad to see for the MMO market. EvE has its player base and its making an overly healthy profit I dont think they need to start changing their model after all this time.

Originally posted by elvenangel

If Dev's today have learned anything its that POST Launch changing the formula of the game that makes it Popular with its current subscribers (they're obviously turning a rather adequate profit to be able to maintain and continously update the game after all this time) is a BAD BAD THING.

 

Take SWG For instance.   Although the game didn't take off with nearly as many subscribers as people thought it would the ones it did keep were extremely happy bugs n all.  It was a sandbox game that needed some fixing to make its long life span viable.   Instead the big wigs saw how popular another game was and changed their entire model.  Over a years worth of hard work and dedication literally wiped out with the simple push of a button.  It destroyed SWG's population and its never recovered, infact its created die hard haters.

 

If EvE was suddenly to offer more servers people would quickly jump on the 'move' bandwagon destroying entire economies and even long standing Corporations.  There's no avoiding this when you have multiple servers people MOVE or relocate all the time, look at other games wehre the moment transfers happened guilds were split in half, economies were destroyed, and good players lost.    EvE which is sorely dedicated to its current populace would NEVER recover from changing its Model of One World, One Server.

I'm not that big of hard core pvper, nor am I a fan of EvE but I am a gamer to the heart and the utter destruction of such a unique game would be incredibly sad to see for the MMO market. EvE has its player base and its making an overly healthy profit I dont think they need to start changing their model after all this time.

Well so be it then. Sigh. I should have joined up when the game launched. I had no idea it would turn out this way in the end for newcomers. It's a real pity though since what I saw from my trial really made me almost delirious with joy.  If the game was any less good then I'd probably join because I wouldn't care that much about being gimped from the start. Oh well... guess I'll have to wait for some other game although I'm sure it won't be as good, complex and open-ended as EVE since it'll be done by someone like EA or SOE.

Why is it so ingrained in your head that you HAVE to catch up to older players sp wise to enjoy the game?

I know nothing anyone says will ever dissuade you from believing it but it's just so absurd I can't leave it alone. I only joined 9 months ago and EVE is my favorite game. My corp and alliance are generally newer players yet we are doing very well for ourselves. We've taken our own space in 0.0. We've battled older players and we've learned. We generally take a bloody nose at first but then we come up with tactics for defeating them. You DON'T need to have the most SP to succeed at or enjoy this game.

Again, I know nothing is going to change your mind on this but hopefully I can at least inform a few reasonable people who might enjoy playing EVE.

Why do you keep insisting that you can't play the game because you cannot catch up in terms of total skill points ?

While you cannot catch up in total skill points you can easily catch up in relevant skill points to easily compete in combat, manufacturing or market pvp . If you feel you will never be able to run your own alliance and control a region or 2 of space then  again you are wrong. Start playing, make your corp and run it well, get into an alliance and show how good of a leader you are and you could easily run an alliance (this is not something that any skill points in the game will ever help you with). Just because one big alliance controls a region of space today that does not mean they will be in control in the future. Alliances fall apart all the time and new alliances form and take over regions.

For example a year or so ago BoB was the big alliance in the universe controlling a fairly large portion of it but today they are no where near the size they once were and their controlled space is much smaller. This isn't to say BoB isn't a factor in the universe any more because they still are but it's an example of how things change.

Sounds more like your mental block is preventing you from playing the game not the fact there is only one server and the older players have more control over space than you will as a new player entering the game today.

Apparently you don't seem to realize that if you were able to be caught up in SP within a month or two to veteran players and be able to do everything they can... that it just wouldn't matter.  You'd have no idea what you were doing, where as they would be very experienced in their roles by then and would have no problem tearing you apart.

Time-based training has more balance to it than you seem to realize, and multiple people have stated it time and time again around here.  The -ONLY- thing a veteran player's character is going to have up on you is diversity.  They can do more things.  Specialize in something you want to do right off the bat and you can be caught up in no time and flying that ship class JUST AS proficiently as a veteran.

The only thing the player behind the character is going to have over you is experience.. and not the XP kind.  The experience that lets him understand certain mechanics of the game better, which is the -main- reason older players will have an upper hand.  Doesn't have to do with SP or ISK.. it has to do with them knowing more about the game, which something that is determined on a player-by-player basis.  However much you want to dedicate into learning things in the game.  If you want to get involved and ask questions, learn by experience (and even death)..

If you can't deal with that, then EVE will never be for you.  It isn't a game that allows anyone to jump in and be good at it, ala WoW.  It is completely different than any other MMO on the market right now, and you need to envision it as a world and not a game.  Only then can you actually realize the potential within EVE and stop caring about whether or not you have more SP or more money than another player.

It has been said so many times, and i repeat myself over and over again..but well, one more time:

SP ARE IRRELEVANT.

When i fly with my mates, we put our gangs together by shiptype, not by SP. When i want to assault someone i never look how old that character is, but what ship he is flying and how he outfitted it. I have attacked people three times my SP, and got killed by people having less than 1/5 of my SP.
Because Skillpoints can give you a rough idea how experienced a char is, but not how deadly he could be to you.
I my Corporation i am one of the "older" ones, above average SP. Our gangs consist of newbies and vets all alike. And all are having fun..and all are getting kills..

as the 4 posts above me state, and i stated before, you are cuting off your nose to spite your face.

you like teh game, but have this silly view that you can't catch up.

how about this then, you can buy an older character with ingame credit? so start the game, get the ingame credit and purchace an older character. there you go you now can catch up.

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- When you start playing you have absolutely no chance catching up with the big boys due to time-based skll advancement

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- the harsh death penalties are a huge letdown for us carebearish sensitive types.

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Just dont go below 0.5 secure space and dont join a player corp and you will never get killed in PVP...

Theres a ton of ISKs to be made off of lvl 4 missions that you can solo with a Tanked out BS..

In fact one of my main money makers is a Nightmare TII out and run lvl 4 mission in a matter of minutes then get into looting and salvage you can make a bundle then you can support any habbit you have in EVE..

I run 6 accounts 3 are in one corp for PVP 1 is a in a pirate corp and 1 is the mission runner the last is all industry... aure i can make ISKs in 0,0 and i do but the lvl 4 missions and indusrty finance my PVP toons with out any trouble... lost a navy issue battle ship with some great armot modules and all in all im not worried about the game is great!!

My friend, I ask that you put aside any preconceptions and try this.

Have you and your friends subscribe to EVE for 3 months.

Let this be your (and your friends) trail.

Roll a character that has balanced attributes but with a little bit more perception and willpower and you can skimp a point or two with charisma.

Pick starting skills in the skill groups Spaceship command, gunnery, and navigation. (EDIT: If you roll a Caldari character (and they have the best t2 frigates) or to a lesser extent minmatar, it would be wise to put in some skills in the missile system operation (if that is the name) skill group)

Then look in the recruitment channel, the recruitment forum and recruitment advertisements in the corporations tab.

Find a corp (that will admit you and your friends) that operates frequently in low sec, is PVP oriented, and does frequent communal PVE ops where everyone benefits.

Fight when you can, with what you can afford to lose, focus your training on t1 equipment up to cruiser at least until you start with t2.

As I said before, every ship has a purpose and many enjoy frigate combat above any other ship.

But anyway, do this for three months. If you haven't enjoyed yoruself, I'd be suprised. But if you do this, I imagine you'll find the newbie/vet gap will be increasingly irrelevant.

God Bless

Creed Richards

Im gona go emo for a sentence now..

Oh please!.. dont come with crap about skills again geez... you can easly pvp with the big guys if you specialize yourself to a certain ship or class of ships, in just a few months you will be just as good as them..

..goes back to normal.

Theres many skills on EVE because theres many roles you can take on the game, it doesnt mean you need all the 92mil sp to become as good as the old guys.. Just means you will be just as good as them in a certain role, and increase the number of roles you can have on 1 character in time..

Joining a good corporation that fits your interests is the most important part for a "newbie" to do. From there you will be able to fit in the "community" pretty easly, even if your flying around with 4-5mil sp, its all about making the right choices depending on what you wanna be to start..

This new server discussions are geting old.. To play this game you need to have a brain and learn your way through it, cant expect it to be like WoW where you learn the whole game in a couple of weeks... EVE is a vry different MMO, most people call it the hardest MMO out there but to be honest I think all you need is alot more dedication and more then 50 of IQ lol

First off I can see where you are coming from. Death penalties in EVE are harsh, kinda like in Linage 2 (maybe harsher). But you have to understand that death penalties in EVE play a major role.

Say for example your corporation goes to war against another corp. Your main objective is to cause as much financial harm to the other corp as possible. Of course the only way this is achieved is through harsh death penalties. Now Imagine if you take those penalties away. There would be no point, every corporation and Alliance would be invincible. On top of that the EVE economy is fueled by player losses, take that away and it will collapse.

Whether you like it or not, harsh death penalties is the life stream of EVE. Devs know it, they designed the game to be that way. Take it away and all you have is another WoW clone. Truth is its not going to change, if it really bugs you that much then maybe EVE is not for you.

My 2 isks.