Originally posted by elvenangel

Wow you work with a company associated with a software company?! Gasp! I'll do you one better I work for an actual company that makes engines & software and we listen damn closely to our customers otherwise we'd be the hell out of a job.  

Any and every company want to make money but they certaintly aren't going to make money listening to a hardcore minority of WHINERS.  Thats right Whiners.  If you agree with the OP in all senses of reality your a whiner.  There's no lack of games out there for you to enjoy just because there are more of a game type out there that you hate doesn't mean they're shit games.  Someone obviously likes them or companies wouldn't make them.   .   

Making any and every game is a risk no matter how popular the genre is.  The idea that game companies don't pay attention to their market is utterly ridiculous (its just unfortante there are Dev's who have their heads up their buttocks but then this happens in every field of life).    If all games suddenly became the same and catered to just one group of players then it'd be the end of games.   If all games suddenly just appealed to all types of players then in the end games would happen due to the sheer insanity of trying to maintain a game of said size.  

There's something for everyone out there this continued OMG they're not listening to me BS is just getting old I mean come on how much harder can a person  over nothing.   You can't have it your way every single time.

Sorry, MMOs are not some grand art form, they are a way of making money. And companies go with what there marketing department, as well as other departments, tell them they will make the most money.

 I am not saying that developement companies dont pay attention to customers or the market. What I am saying is that in the end, everything said and done, they do what their numbers tell them will give them the biggest return.

When a company does something that the public hates, that decision was based on what they percieve as being their best investment.

Read what I am saying, companies don't care. They decide based on what will make money and if the public agrees great if not then they made a mistake and do something else, but they dont care.

Look at the list of games on the left hand side of this webpage.

Count the number of sandbox, pvp, classless, etc games that are a financial success.

Now count the number of class based linear raid and or pvp games on that list that are a financial success.

I think companies are listening to what consumers are telling them.  Sadly no game that has what you want has been released in anywhere close to decent shape which has hurt innovation and forward progress of the genre.  The only exception I can think of are games with Raph Kosters craftmanship behind it and even then they weren't given enough time to develop and the companies eventually wrecked them after chasing off Raph.

There is plenty of room for both types of games and many more that walk a line between the two styles.  The problem is so few companies have actually made a worthwhile product. 

Originally posted by Dedthom

 

And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people want or do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.

 

I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."

If you dont understand that,  you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.

Originally posted by elvenangel

Wow you work with a company associated with a software company?! Gasp! I'll do you one better I work for an actual company that makes engines & software and we listen damn closely to our customers otherwise we'd be the hell out of a job.  

Any and every company want to make money but they certaintly aren't going to make money listening to a hardcore minority of WHINERS.  Thats right Whiners.  If you agree with the OP in all senses of reality your a whiner.  There's no lack of games out there for you to enjoy just because there are more of a game type out there that you hate doesn't mean they're shit games.  Someone obviously likes them or companies wouldn't make them.   .   

Making any and every game is a risk no matter how popular the genre is.  The idea that game companies don't pay attention to their market is utterly ridiculous (its just unfortante there are Dev's who have their heads up their buttocks but then this happens in every field of life).    If all games suddenly became the same and catered to just one group of players then it'd be the end of games.   If all games suddenly just appealed to all types of players then in the end games would happen due to the sheer insanity of trying to maintain a game of said size.  

There's something for everyone out there this continued OMG they're not listening to me BS is just getting old I mean come on how much harder can a person  over nothing.   You can't have it your way every single time.

Of course your opinion is going to be this. You are an engineer (Software hardware? who cares)

You aren't seeing the level of the bottom dollar because you are locked away in some tech stall where the buis dev guys can't talk to you. Or if they do it's just to appease you and make you feel warm and cozy with the company.

Face it your company, my company, that company over there gives a rats ass less about fun and new exciting features if they don't make money. Developers start with making a game they would want to play and by the time people like me get done with them it's a new game and the profit margin forecast goes up 100%.

Meanwhile mr.dev just shrugs because he just got his 30k raise.

See games are fun and all but you offer more funding to a project and more money to the devs to do whatever your forecasters say to do...You pretty much own the project and the dev(s) have to shrug...and drive home in their nice new BMW's to their nice new homes...Beats the apartments after all right?

Then they turn into garriot... A guy who worked out of a garage. Built a game how he liked....Made some really good single player games....That really didn't sell (had a cult following yes but sell naw.) . One day he takes the idea of a MUD and BAM UO.

UO comes around but guess what ! OSI can't afford it! Oh noes!

EA to the rescue with their forecasters and metrics. Bam UO is profitable and Garriot is Sailes little beotch until he leaves to flounder found Destination Games. Then the mashing the project wasting a huge amount of revenue.

To make a floppy ass game...yet again.

Moral of the Story: Devs need guys to tell them what to do because like we gamers who have "our perfect game that nobody would want to play really....so too do devs".

Originally posted by elvenangel

Wow you work with a company associated with a software company?! Gasp! I'll do you one better I work for an actual company that makes engines & software and we listen damn closely to our customers otherwise we'd be the hell out of a job.  

Any and every company want to make money but they certaintly aren't going to make money listening to a hardcore minority of WHINERS.  Thats right Whiners.  If you agree with the OP in all senses of reality your a whiner.  There's no lack of games out there for you to enjoy just because there are more of a game type out there that you hate doesn't mean they're shit games.  Someone obviously likes them or companies wouldn't make them.   .   

Making any and every game is a risk no matter how popular the genre is.  The idea that game companies don't pay attention to their market is utterly ridiculous (its just unfortante there are Dev's who have their heads up their buttocks but then this happens in every field of life).    If all games suddenly became the same and catered to just one group of players then it'd be the end of games.   If all games suddenly just appealed to all types of players then in the end games would happen due to the sheer insanity of trying to maintain a game of said size.  

There's something for everyone out there this continued OMG they're not listening to me BS is just getting old I mean come on how much harder can a person  over nothing.   You can't have it your way every single time.

umm agree with your post - figured i should post where i am agreeing for once instead of coming off always as disagreeable or argumentative lol

a lot of the whining comes from:

1) 10-30 year olds that seem to lack a 'fair' attention span

2) i want i want i want - GREED

3) the inability to compromise - a game is not a "principle", it isnt like one is compromising one's high ideals in life to muddle through some of the minor annoyances in a game to get to the creamy-filled center

i agree that a few games are almost like work ... absolutely dont play those ones, but some games can be pleasant little "simple" distractions; if people are ohhh so tired and want an OHHHHHH so complex game - go work on some applied math, programming and BUILD IT YOURSELF if you can freaking do better ya sissy lil whiners [not you elven lol] 

i dont want an extremely complex game - i'm already playing that one it is called LIFE lol

4) lack of critical thinking - just want to kill kill kill - hey that's like an fps then isnt it? isnt a "role playing game" about ... playing the 'role' ... unless the game is "God vs Everyone Else"  your character probably isnt omnipotent - deal with it, use a brain instead of fingers acting like a mouth spouting off about every single game under the sun being worthless

omg time and time again posters are "no game holds my interest for more than a month" then maybe that should tell you to get OFF YOUR A** and MOVE ON TO a SIGNIFICANT OTHER or become a work-aholic or porn-addict or something that DOES hold your interest - goes back to #1 above and adhd syndrome running rampant .....

hmm here's a concept for the "constant" whiners - go daydream - playing a game inside your head that has all the features you want ... you shouldnt get bored with that now should you? you can use all the creativity your tiny intellect can muster to drive the story wherever you want it to go - featuritis galore!!! and you can play this game everyday for the rest of your life .... granted it's usually a solo instance UNLESS you have multiple personalities lmao

now that being said it doesnt mean some opinions are not valid nor well-thought out -some games do "suck", some games do have flaws in one aspect or another -but ..HELLO it is a G-A-M-E  relax enjoy. educated opinions are given more weight and consideration than day-in day-out whiny opinions

maybe 'im just too busy enjoying life and having fun - ...but i rarely have played a game i didnt like , i'd do a little homework and either buy a game or not  based on my research into it

my daughter better never whine and complain about games when she is growing up or i'll take them all away from her - i wont craft a  level 99 whiner of a child

.... back to your engines - slow like 4/5ths  of the companies out there ? or fast, sexy, n sleek under the cpu hood?

  i would *love* to see some of the cell-processor engines and code just to see what some of those devs are parallelizing and where they are failing to take advantage of the cpu [well them and/or the compilers parallel code gen]

x

ruby is for sissy-dofuses, real programmers don't touch it even with a 10 ft python

you talk about software and software company's when you don't even know a line of programming blargh i hate youa ll

Originally posted by valter007

...

Even that, there are many people that keep on asking for features like FULL LOOT, FREE PVP (No save zones), SAND BOX, no LVLS, no CLASSES, instead SKILLS that you train according to your needs -whatever they are, limitted INSTANCED ACTION, no TELEPORTING everywhere in the map with a number of clicks, no ITEM- BASED game and pvp -meaning that all you left doing in the game is running around raiding looking for that uber sword cause theres nothing else to do.

...

They are called MUD's, stop complaining and go play one. 

MMO companies are very in touch, in touch with teh money like they should be.

Originally posted by elvenangel

There's something for everyone out there

People have been asking for a Virtual World for years now. NPCs with some life and purpose, factions which matter and not just in a "it takes 10 hours to get ally" sense. Where RPG isn't just three unimportant letters.

I know and have played plenty of games where I kill 10 gorillas for the Cap of Monster Slaying. I don't want for more opportunities to kill gorillas. But I'd love once again to enter a world rich in lore and wonder, where I felt like a tiny spec in a world that existed with or without me.

Hmm, haven't been part of something like that for years. Is it really there, and I've just missed it?

Originally posted by Hexxeity

 

Originally posted by Dedthom

 

And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people want or do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.

 

You talk as though these are two different things.

 

I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."

If you dont understand that,  you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.

They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?

1. Right now there are more people who prefer a casual easy PvE-game with levels and a PvP minigame (arena) than one big sandboxy PvP Arena. Thats the way it is, no matter how we like it or not. Companies will try to go after the big part of the cake as usual, its all been said before.

2. The cries for change and new MMO game mechanics started about 2-3 years ago. I think I read more posts in the last year from frustrated players wanting something new than in the two years before that combined. I guess the non-conform crowd is growing. The problem is: Even if we were heard a year ago, developing a new MMO takes time. If someone picked up the new hype a year ago the corresponding game would only get released about 4-5 years after that. The mass of EQ-clones we are seeing today were conceived 4-5 years ago when WoW was still "small" compared to today. At that time the devs of the other companies watched WoWs succesfull start with envy and went straight to the drawing boards to develop a clone with some sort of variation. Thus I think we can expect games with new designs to appear in about 2-3 years as a minimum because the wish for these new designs surfaced only in recent months/years.

3. Next problem: High risk. In the days of a 10 mio player WoW it will be hard to convince anyone to invest money into a design that *may* be succesfull in 3-4 years time. Who knows what people will want in 4 years? Rather go the secure way of developing what "works". *Sigh*

The only thing we can do is wait and voice our opinion every now and then. We just have to hope that those 10 mio WoW players end their subscription out of boredom. Thats the point when new stuff WILL appear.

Originally posted by Inf666

1. Right now there are more people who prefer a casual easy PvE-game with levels and a PvP minigame (arena) than one big sandboxy PvP Arena. Thats the way it is, no matter how we like it or not. Companies will try to go after the big part of the cake as usual, its all been said before.

 

2. The cries for change and new MMO game mechanics started about 2-3 years ago. I think I read more posts in the last year from frustrated players wanting something new than in the two years before that combined. I guess the non-conform crowd is growing. The problem is: Even if we were heard a year ago, developing a new MMO takes time. If someone picked up the new hype a year ago the corresponding game would only get released about 4-5 years after that. The mass of EQ-clones we are seeing today were conceived 4-5 years ago when WoW was still "small" compared to today. At that time the devs of the other companies watched WoWs succesfull start with envy and went straight to the drawing boards to develop a clone with some sort of variation. Thus I think we can expect games with new designs to appear in about 2-3 years as a minimum because the wish for these new designs surfaced only in recent months/years.

 

3. Next problem: High risk. In the days of a 10 mio player WoW it will be hard to convince anyone to invest money into a design that *may* be succesfull in 3-4 years time. Who knows what people will want in 4 years? Rather go the secure way of developing what "works". *Sigh*

 

The only thing we can do is wait and voice our opinion every now and then. We just have to hope that those 10 mio WoW players end their subscription out of boredom. Thats the point when new stuff WILL appear.

Great points I think you have hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by Dedthom

Originally posted by Hexxeity

 

Originally posted by Dedthom

 

And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people want or do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.

 

You talk as though these are two different things.

 

I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."

If you dont understand that,  you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.

They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?

But I will take it that you concede my point, since you are not actually prepared to counter it in a reasonable manner.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

 

Originally posted by Dedthom

Originally posted by Hexxeity

 

Originally posted by Dedthom

 

And when you listen to your customers, the users of your software engine, do you design it so they can turn around and based on what their marketing plan is, develope something to sell to the public? And do you think for one minute the buyers of you engine give a flying rats gentailia about what people want or do they, these users of your software, look at the demographics and find the one that will make the most money on the invesment they made in your software.

 

You talk as though these are two different things.

 

I have news for you -- "what people want" is exactly the same as "the one that will make the most money."

If you dont understand that,  you don't understand anything about business, or games, or the real world.

They are not the same thing. If companies took the business model of giving their customers exactly what they wanted then they would not last long because what people want is the best for free. Sure people are willing to pay for what they need or what will fulfil a desire but is it really what they want or is it what is out there?

That is a ridiculous non-argument, and you should be ashamed.

 

But I will take it that you concede my point, since you are not actually prepared to counter it in a reasonable manner.

LOL! You turned my frown upside down. I will not press you further on this because you made me laugh.

Generic arguments are generic.

In the manufacturing industry, consumers would love their purchases to last forever. It is not in the interests of the manufacturers for products not to break, however.

The entertainment industry is different. People will not go to see a comedian they don't find funny; watch a film they don't enjoy or play a game that isn't fun.

Stupid generic arguments are stupid.

Originally posted by k9wazere

Generic arguments are generic.

 

In the manufacturing industry, consumers would love their purchases to last forever. It is not in the interests of the manufacturers for products not to break, however.

 

The entertainment industry is different. People will not go to see a comedian they don't find funny; watch a film they don't enjoy or play a game that isn't fun.

 

Stupid generic arguments are stupid.

When you see a comedian you like do you laugh at every joke? When you see a movie do you walk out if you aren't stunned in the first 5 minutes? When you purchase a game, especially an MMO, do you always enjoy every second of it?

But arent we always looking to laugh at every joke, be enthralled from the start and enjoy every second. We have gotten used to settling because we know that we cannot have the things just the we want so we take what we can get. Companies know that we will pay for something even if it isn't exactly just what we want because it is close enough to fulfil a desire or need, even if not fully.

So the idea that the giving the people what they want is where the money is simple does not work. The money is filling the most general desire. And when trying to fulfil more than the most general need or desire cuts into the bottom line then companies will not go down that path but instead follow the path that leads to profit. With out regard to what the customer really wants.

Originally posted by elvenangel

Some can't get over the old days of UO that had free for all pvping, looting, housing, sandbox etc etc.  Some people never liked it in the first place.  Some will never get over the fact that UO which used to have all those things...changed in order to keep the Large masses of their players that were leaving.

So when it comes to making something different in the malcontent market of MMORPGs, we hear expense and this long old argument which may have been true in 1999-2000.  You are forgetting that at the time this happened no more than several hundred thousand played ANY kind of MMORPG, that now there are millions or tens of millions, and that many of those have only even started playing in the past 5 years.

The general appeal of such a game to the kinds of people who were playing MMORPGs in 1998 will not be the same as the general appeal to the kinds of people playing now.  They are entirely different kinds of people coming from a broader swathe of society as the genre has moved from obscurity to mainstream notoriety.

You people need to stop bringing up those days like they're a rule that holds true to anything about today.

Originally posted by Dedthom

 

Alright children think about it. Is everything you currently have what you wanted or did it fulfil a desire or need and what you really wanted was unattainable?

 

When you see a comedian you like do you laugh at every joke? When you see a movie do you walk out if you aren't stunned in the first 5 minutes? When you purchase a game, especially an MMO, do you always enjoy every second of it?

But arent we always looking to laugh at every joke, be enthralled from the start and enjoy every second. We have gotten used to settling because we know that we cannot have the things just the we want so we take what we can get. Companies know that we will pay for something even if it isn't exactly just what we want because it is close enough to fulfil a desire or need, even if not fully.

So the idea that the giving the people what they want is where the money is simple does not work. The money is filling the most general desire. And when trying to fulfil more than the most general need or desire cuts into the bottom line then companies will not go down that path but instead follow the path that leads to profit. With out regard to what the customer really wants.

No. Some of those jokes aren't funny, but you can bet your ass that comedian wants every joke to go down well. So some might miss the mark, but it's not through any business acumen he might have, it's that sometimes we fail even tho we try. And sometimes we don't have time/energy to make the extra effort, so we put out B-grade material to fill the gaps.

But this isn't your orginal argument. You said "giving people what they want is bad for business" or some such nonsense. The fact is, in entertainment you have to give people as much of what they want as is possible, or someone else will. People might watch an average comedian if he's the best thing in town, but if the guy up the street is pure comic gold, they'll go there instead.

It is plainly not good business practice to deliberately and willfully avoid the wants and needs of your customers. Saying anything else is just argument for the sake of it.

I will play devil's advocate for a moment here, because there is one instance in which you are sort of right.

I believe that a lot of customers don't really know what they want. Hence, delivering what they ask for is no more guaranteed than delivering what they say they don't want. But that doesn't mean you should do this every time.

It's like a kid who says he never wants to be disciplined. He might say that's what he wants, but really he wants (even if he doesn't know it yet) to develop into a normal, healthy adult. Kids with no discipline are less likely to become well-adjusted adults.

That's stretching a bit, but it's a genuine case for not always giving people what they "want".

you're OUT OF TOUCH ! I'M out of tiiiime, but I'm out of my head, when you're not arround,

you're out of touch, I'M out of timeeee, but Im out of my heaaaad when youre not aarrrround, OH ! OH OH OH, OH OH OH *sing*

:D