Originally posted by jor8888

Does anyone even know UO or EQ was in development first?

From wikipedia, UO began development in 1995 and EQ began in 1996.  Interesting that EQ began development before UO was even released - didn't know that.

UO History

Ultima Online is the product of Richard Garriott's idea for a fantasy game involving several thousand people who can all play in a shared fantasy world. There were a number of prior games that allowed hundreds of people to play at the same time, including The Realm Online, Neverwinter Nights (the AOL version), and Meridian 59. However, Ultima Online was intended to be a significant improvement over the previous games, both graphically and in game mechanics. The initial team was composed of Garriot, Starr Long, Rick Delashmit and, a bit later Raph Koster, who became the lead designer for the project. Koster wrote a number of public "designer letters" and usually went by his nickname of Designer Dragon.

The project started in 1995 and was shown to the public at E3 in 1996. At the time (in the mid-1990s), Ultima Online was a very expensive project and quite risky for the company. The development cost was much greater than traditional computer games, it relied on people accessing servers with modems, and it attempted to transform the Ultima series into an entirely new genre. Ultima Online was an ambitious game on a number of fronts, such as:

• Players may buy housing and build houses within the persistent landscape (this is still an uncommon feature in many online games).
• A skill system without the more traditional experience-based levels or classes.
• Many different trades or crafts can be performed by the players to create an in-game economy.
• Players could be freely attacked anywhere in the game, even in cities (this has since changed).

Upon release in mid-1997, Ultima Online proved to be very popular, reaching 100,000 paying subscribers within six months of release. Subscriptions grew for several years reaching a peak of some 250,000 paid accounts. Origin was able to make a great deal of money from the monthly fees required to play Ultima Online and many other companies took note and began development of their own massively multiplayer games. The most successful games after Ultima Online have been EverQuest (released in March 1999), Dark Age of Camelot (released in October 2001), and World of Warcraft (released in November 2004). The Korean massively multiplayer game Lineage was very much inspired by Ultima Online, as have many other subsequent online games.

EQ Development history

The design and concept of EverQuest is heavily indebted to text-based MUDs, in particular DikuMUD, and as such EverQuest is considered a 3D evolution of the text MUD genre like some of the MMOs that preceded it such as Meridian 59 and The Realm Online. John Smedley, Brad McQuaid, Steve Clover and Bill Trost who jointly are credited with creating the world of EverQuest have repeatedly pointed to their shared experiences playing MUDs such as DIKU and TorilMUD as the inspiration for the game.^[2]

Development of EverQuest began in 1996 when Sony Interactive Studios America (SISA) executive John Smedley secured funding for a 3D version of text-based MUDs following the successful launch of Meridian 59 the previous year. To implement the design Smedley hired programmers Brad McQuaid and Steve Clover who had come to Smedley's attention through their work on the single player RPG Warwizard. McQuaid soon rose through the ranks to become Executive Producer for the EverQuest franchise and emerged during development of EverQuest as a popular figure among the fan community through his in-game avatar, Aradune. Other key members of the development team included Bill Trost, who created the history, lore and major characters of Norrath (including Everquest protagonist Firiona Vie), Geoffrey "GZ" Zatkin who implemented the spell system, and artist Milo D. Cooper, who did the original character modeling in the game.

EverQuest launched with modest expectations from Sony on March 16, 1999 under its Verant Interactive brand and quickly became successful. By the end of the year, it had surpassed the leading competitor, Ultima Online, in number of subscriptions. Numbers continued rising at a steady rate until mid-2001 when growth slowed. As of 2004, Sony reports subscription numbers close to 450,000. SOE released a Mac OS X version of EverQuest in 2003, incorporating all expansions through Planes of Power. Development of the OS X version has languished since then, but the server remains up and running, supporting a small but enthusiastic user community.

I agree that the original vision for this game has been lost over time, but as it stands, I still believe it to be way deeper and roleplay friendly, than all the eq/wow clones out there.

Joeyboots...You are wise my friend. 

Originally posted by wrekognize

Joeyboots...You are wise my friend. 

Thanks wrek, just call em as I see em. I have read your posts before, and we have similar beliefs. I am tired of people saying this game is utter crap, when it is not, it is just different then when it started. What has not changed, is the immersion and how the game facilitates true "roleplaying" which has yet to be matched by any mmo, even the mighty mighty WOW. Maybe It's because I'm an old-school DandD geek, or maybe it's because I remember being first attracted to the mmo genre by the classic big three (eq1, uo, and AC), though i originally played eq. I was just a kid then, but I remember the attraction was the chance to be part of a virtual world, and play a role. Nowadays, it seems like mmos have become more style over substance. They seem to be more about instant gratification, instances and raids, and grinding for epic gear and such. Sure the graphics are better, and they tend to be more accesible and user friendly than the classics, but when you come down to it, it seems like these modern conventions are implimented at the expense of "persistance", and "roleplayability". Whatever happened to just wandering the world (with no instances or load screens), in search of adventure, or interacting with other players in character, whether they be fisherman, blacksmithy, mage, or thief. Community is important, not just a group of people who play the game, the economy and player base is extremely reliant on the many professions that can be chosen, as most things you might need are not sold at npc shops. I had a friend that was a tailor, and that was all he did, tailoring, and thus ended up buliding a house he used for his tailoring shop. He had the choice to do so, and thats what makes this game so special. You are not forced to level your toon, or even fight anything if you don't want to. UO was, and still is a world that you live in, not just a game that you play.

Some old PvP Vets always come by and say that EA destroyed UO, ironically it was people like you that destroyed the game for alot of people that didn't care to be Player killed as soon as they left the town.   It was total chaos and almost unplayable most of the times.   It was like the wild west with no law what so ever.  Even in towns, clever Beta players figured out ways to kill newbies.   UO has alot of its player base leave because of the out of control player killer bands roaming the lands preying on the player-base that just started the game.  

You say UO pre-trammel, was the best ever.   Yes it may have been for the people who loved to prey on the helpless who just started out in the game.    Just to rob them of thier pitiful 500 gps or whatever it was at the time.

Believe it or not Trammel actually brought back cancelled accounts and brought subs  to about 250k at its height.    UO was dying a rapid death with people leaving the game because of the PK chaos and little game out called Everquest which took out of UO's player-base and kept them for good.

Free for all PvP where everything goes will never be a success.   Even in the past history of mankind there was laws or there would be total chaos as some people can't behave themselves.

Even in Beta your "god" Lord British got PK.   That was a just a sign that this promising game was doomed from the start. 

We do agree. 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/thread/141864

I myself am on both sides of the fence, actually. On one side, I believe the invention of Trammel and Felucca was actually good for the game, as it gave those who hated the rampant pk'ing, a place to play in peace, and those who still wanted to kill others at whim, a place to pk to their heart's content. On the other side, I believe the un-ultima like content that has been heaped onto the game since Mr. Garriott left, is simply ridiculous. So in short, this game was not any better or worse back then or now, just different. And, once again, this game is still a roleplayer's paradise.

Originally posted by BarryManilow

Some old PvP Vets always come by and say that EA destroyed UO, ironically it was people like you that destroyed the game for alot of people that didn't care to be Player killed as soon as they left the town.   It was total chaos and almost unplayable most of the times.   It was like the wild west with no law what so ever.  Even in towns, clever Beta players figured out ways to kill newbies.   UO has alot of its player base leave because of the out of control player killer bands roaming the lands preying on the player-base that just started the game.  

You say UO pre-trammel, was the best ever.   Yes it may have been for the people who loved to prey on the helpless who just started out in the game.    Just to rob them of thier pitiful 500 gps or whatever it was at the time.

Believe it or not Trammel actually brought back cancelled accounts and brought subs  to about 250k at its height.    UO was dying a rapid death with people leaving the game because of the PK chaos and little game out called Everquest which took out of UO's player-base and kept them for good.

Free for all PvP where everything goes will never be a success.   Even in the past history of mankind there was laws or there would be total chaos as some people can't behave themselves.

Even in Beta your "god" Lord British got PK.   That was a just a sign that this promising game was doomed from the start. 

It was nowhere near the worst thing that ever happened to the game by any means.  The AoS expansion was a fundamental change to item based gameplay which did much more damage to the game than offering a sanctuary from being victimized by other players.  All the idiot, non Ultima, crap that has been put into the game (elves, ninja, etc.), since AoS, is a product of the same mentality that created the AoS expansion.

One of the biggest missed opportunities by the developers was with the LBR expansion.  Instead of using it to add to UO some of what UO2 was intended to deliver, they just tossed in the creatures becuase they wanted to recover some of the costs of hiring Todd McFarlane to design critters for UO2.  They could have added the Juka and Meer as playable races, introduced a fully implemented virtue system, and moved the storyline of the game world forward (the fusion of magic and technology was comming to the game world and should have had a bit more impact than being able to build Golems).   Instead they hastily threw together a new land (semi-patterned after U5's Shadowlord combat map), populated it with Mr. McFarlane's critters, and began the slow process of adding the virtue system in small pieces.

The majority of complaints I see with UO relates to the UOR/Trammel expansion.  If all the old UO vets really want to rekindle the old glory days, then do it!  Re-subscribe to UO and move to Fel and play.  Coordinate your efforts and re-populate the Fel side of one server.  Surely there are enough players to make ONE Fel side a viable PvP gaming experience isn't there?  maybe not...  Or do the changes brought with AOS hinder PvP due to the item focus it gave to the game? 

I myself am considering a partial return to UO after leaving when SWG launched (which I in turn left when the NGE came out)... then I played AO, Ashen Empires, and now Vanguard since then (Vanguard is good btw, don't let the naysayers keep you from trying it!).  But I think there is plenty of "good" left in UO to draw players back to it:  running merchants & vendors!!, extensive crafting, custom housing, skill based system (big one here!), freedom to play your character as you want, good guilds, good community events and involvement, and simply lots of things to do, hunt, and explore.   Yes it's old style graphics, but I am missing the fun times from my old UO days... I might just overlook some of the minor negatives to experience that fun once more.

I just wanted to add (I also started on day 1) that I think it's great that uo is still going and that they are trying to get a new client going. Haven't been back in awhile (too busy with lotr) but I have  relative still playing who also started on day 1. He still loves the game (and the current destruction of magicia where folks are watching the city be destroyed and taking home rubble, trees ect to their houses) which is great.

Before trammel I hated it but it was a challenge and I miss it now. But it's gone forever and even if you organized folks and got them to return to fel there would be one thing missing...the victims. Without the folks who avoid pvp it's just open warfare where connection speed, exploits and just plain cheating rule the day.

So the old game is history and if orgin hadn't changed it the game would just be a footnote now. As it is it's a lesson for us all. If you play a game take the game as it is and stop trying to always remake the game in your image. That's why games tend to be clones of one another. We as customers buy the game, move in and start trying to change it to suit us. That's all I have to say, now if only Lotr's would come up from maintenance...Mummy.

Played UO for several years half pre and half post UOR. 

The first point I would agree with.  UO was and is the only mmo I would call an online world. 

The second point is IMHO what brought the down fall of UO, but you are entitled to you opinion. 

Splitting the world was the worse idea they could of come up to help fix the solution. 

Originally posted by joeyboots

Originally posted by wrekognize

Joeyboots...You are wise my friend. 

Thanks wrek, just call em as I see em. I have read your posts before, and we have similar beliefs. I am tired of people saying this game is utter crap, when it is not, it is just different then when it started. What has not changed, is the immersion and how the game facilitates true "roleplaying" which has yet to be matched by any mmo, even the mighty mighty WOW. Maybe It's because I'm an old-school DandD geek, or maybe it's because I remember being first attracted to the mmo genre by the classic big three (eq1, uo, and AC), though i originally played eq. I was just a kid then, but I remember the attraction was the chance to be part of a virtual world, and play a role. Nowadays, it seems like mmos have become more style over substance. They seem to be more about instant gratification, instances and raids, and grinding for epic gear and such. Sure the graphics are better, and they tend to be more accesible and user friendly than the classics, but when you come down to it, it seems like these modern conventions are implimented at the expense of "persistance", and "roleplayability". Whatever happened to just wandering the world (with no instances or load screens), in search of adventure, or interacting with other players in character, whether they be fisherman, blacksmithy, mage, or thief. Community is important, not just a group of people who play the game, the economy and player base is extremely reliant on the many professions that can be chosen, as most things you might need are not sold at npc shops. I had a friend that was a tailor, and that was all he did, tailoring, and thus ended up buliding a house he used for his tailoring shop. He had the choice to do so, and thats what makes this game so special. You are not forced to level your toon, or even fight anything if you don't want to. UO was, and still is a world that you live in, not just a game that you play.

You’re so right Joey. I am continued to be amazed by the many things people can do in UO. I play on chessy, and recently came across this customized house called ‘Plain Janes’. I’m going to tell you man. She has the most amazing plant selling business I have ever seen. She provides any kind of plant that you could ever want. She is constantly growing plants throughout her house to support her business. It’s really cool. I would post a picture of her place, but I’m at work and can’t do that right now.

...

removed.

Wow what a revelation!  I didn't know 'owning' and 'managing' were synonyms.

Originally posted by Smartwhois

Wow what a revelation!  I didn't know 'owning' and 'managing' were synonyms.

LOL, Burn!

Wow! What a reveleeeeeyore!

UO is definatly a legacy of a game...no matter its state now. 

I retired from the game earlier this year, but I still own and run a fansite forum.  I can say that the community is what keeps this game alive.

No matter what happens...what horrible bugs or problems they encounter, the players seem to just stick together.  They go about their worlds and somehow get through it. 

The game's numbers are not big.  And they seems to lose people (and gain old players back) frequently.  But the players still decorate for Christmas, hold festivals, run events and just generally like to play the game together. 

I have no idea how much longer the game with last with this new 3D client, but most seem to enjoy it.  And I'm glad.  It's an amazing game..unfortunatly it just didn't hold my attention any longer.  But seeing what the players and community do, I decided that our site would stay alive and I'd support it.  I just can't let that kind of enthusiaum for this game die! I know many who have played from Day 1 and still play...that's 10 years of play...that's dedication!

Ya, the players are definitely dedicated to the game...too bad EA isn't.

Who cares whats has been and is now, its old game not of any importens anymore.

Long live new future, long live upcomming Darkfall, forget UO its retro gaming from the past.

Even tho Darkfall, example is UO and some other games, its future we must wurry about not some old retro game thats maybe fun to play sometimes but games like Darkfall is hope for future not oldish from past.

Originally posted by forest-nl

Who cares whats has been and is now, its old game not of any importens anymore.

Long live new future, long live upcomming Darkfall, forget UO its retro gaming from the past.

Even tho Darkfall, example is UO and some other games, its future we must wurry about not some old retro game thats maybe fun to play sometimes but games like Darkfall is hope for future not oldish from past.