Serling--

Two points from a fellow h/h-er like yourself.

(1) See the thread about the Catacombs of Kathandrax at Guru in the Eye of the North section. Arenanet has *done* something to buff Ilsunder (too TOO much, imho), but there are h/h workarounds.

I actually enjoy the dungeons, although I have found that Catacombs, oddly, is now one of the hardest dungeons to h/h (thanks to the now ludicrously difficult end boss, Ilsunder). People are finding that Ilsunder in HM is actually easier than he is in NM. I just wish the dungeons weren't so long or that, at least, you could map travel to the entrance.

(2) For the G.O.L.E.M. mission I always bring Menlo, Cynn, Talon, and Aidan. I flag these four at the easier kiln since these four seem to do just fine by themselves, and then I flag the other three Heroes at the second, harder kiln (the one at the right when you reach the steps) and stay there myself as well. This works fine for me, I just select Heroes to match whatever toon I'm playing so that I have 1 tank, 1 healer, and 2 dps. I usually end up releasing the henches toward the end of that mission if we start to get overwhelmed on the difficult side. (Having even just one more flaggable Hero would be nice, however.)

I think that EotN seems particularly biased against solo players, but I have found pretty effective h/h workarounds for most of the h/h-unfriendly dungeons and missions, including Cyndr (see the Cyndr thread at Wiki for an awesome 3 touch ranger Hero counter to Cyndr using NO powder kegs. I love it!) I am still working on Shards of Orr, though. Yipes. That dungeon is pretty miserable no matter how you slice it.

Well, no matter what you say i'm still gonna play. I've only heard good about.

Originally posted by Serling

Bah.  I've finally reached a verdict on Eye of the North: I hate the fact that some dungeons in there can't be easily completed with heroes and henchmen. 

Corrected it for you. No need to thank me, anytime buddy...

I hate the fact that some dungeons in there can't be easily completed with heroes and henchmen.

If you're going to alter my post, the least you could do is adequately reflect my sentiments.  Try this, instead:

Bah.  I've finally reached a verdict on Eye of the North: I hate the fact that some dungeons in there can't be completed with heroes and henchmen and are a god-awful grind and massive waste of time and effort.

There.  That's better.

Every time I say anything approaching "some dungeons in there can't be completed with heroes and henchmen" at Guru I am very quickly reminded by half a dozen swaggering posters of how "easy" all of the dungeons are to solo and that I need to "learn 2 play". :/

In some ways I have come to recognize that I am just not that skilled a player and it is very hard going, very challenging for me to defeat these dungeons, whereas it is -- seemingly -- so "easy" and a "piece of cake" for everybody else. One thing I will say for the players who chide me about how "easy" everything is to solo is that it reminds me that there is A WAY to complete these dungeons, and the puzzle/challenge for me is to figure out how to do it. I like that sort of challenge. I may not be a very good player, but I am a very determined player, and one by one I am learning the best Hero/Hench/skillbar combinations for each of these dungeons.

I have played EotN quite a bit over the last couple of months and still find it very entertaining, but I have yet to solo (in Normal Mode, mind you), Frostmaw's Burrows, Rragar's Menagerie, or any of the Slaver's Exile dungeons. In truth, I haven't even tried Frostmaw's, I got through much of Rragar's once but it was taking so long that I had to quit at level 3, and I figure the Slaver's dungeons are for now simply beyond my ability to solo. My first several attempts at Shards of Orr I would wipe at the first or second mob on level 1! I did manage to finally solo Shards of Orr once but it was such a time-consuming and unpleasant experience that I haven't gone back. However, I think my next time through that dungeon will run a bit better. As for Catacombs, this dungeon has lately been adjusted to make the end boss more "challenging", so much so that I have added Catacombs to my Avoid List for the time being, although I'm gearing up for another try soon.

I do not see the dungeons as a "god-awful grind and massive waste of time and effort", however. I find the dungeons challenging and fun, for the most part, and the fact that there is a reasonable chance of obtaining a nice item at the end makes them, to me, like "mini-campaigns" that are repeatable. Each time you go, hopefully, you will do a little better, progress a little farther. The dungeons, more than anything else in EotN, have really forced me to think a LOT more about my own build and my Heroes' builds. Even "failed runs", while highly aggravating, are useful because they force me to reevaluate my strategy and look into using other skills. (1) It's never a "god-awful grind" if you're having fun playing, and (2) it's only a "massive waste of effort" if you don't learn anything from the experience about how to run it better next time. A failed dungeon run can be a useful thing in the way that having a flat tire in the middle of nowhere with no spare can be a useful experience if it teaches you the importance of bringing along a spare next time.

The first time I tried Vloxen Excavations I absolutely HATED it. I thought it was insanely hard. The stone summit groups on level 2 were brutal and devastating and left me in terrible shape (-60 dp) for level 3. But each time I went in there I got a little farther and fared a little better -- in the same way I would often wipe, learn, and repeat difficult missions in the other campaigns. Skill bar selection is much more tricky for EotN's dungeons than for anything I have faced in previous campaigns, where I just used, with relatively little variation, my standard, works-in-all-situations skill templates.

I think EotN has quite a number of challenging and fun dungeons and the ones that "can't be completed" really *can* be completed; it's just a matter of learning the correct combination through trial and error and, yes, some long runs in dungeons that ultimately fail your first or second or third time through.

Sorry for the long post. It's just that while I really do share your frustration I also think there's a "glass half-full" way of looking at this. Yes, I often wish the tougher dungeons were a bit easier, but I still think EotN did a really good job with this expansion. It offers a wide range of challenges from easy to exceedingly difficult that will keep me plugging away at it for a good long while to come.

Clearly, if you're not having fun in them, it'd be best to stay out of the dungeons, but I really do think one can "fail" (repeatedly in some cases!) in these dungeons and still learn, hone your skills, investigate new builds, and generally just have fun with them. It makes victory all the sweeter when it finally comes.

Thanks for your post.  I have actually beaten a few of them: Vloxen, Rragar's Menagerie, Shards, and Zoldark, but to be honest even beating them wasn't something I felt like cheering about, more like "thank god that's over."

Seems to me no game (or dungeon) should make you merely feel a sense of relief for beating it, i.e. make you feel more glad to be done with it than to have beaten it.  That's the feeling I have with all these things in EoTN (and to some extent, in Nightfall).  They've made these things such huge time sinks that by the time you get to the end (if you even get there) you just want it to be over.  That's not my idea of fun.  A game should be engaging and entertaining, not feel like a day on the job.

Look, I know everyone has a a different definition of "fun."  IMHO, EoTN's dungeons are simply not fun for me and that's why I prefer to stay out of them.  Unfortunately, since more than half the game is built around these things, I don't find EoTN very much fun at all, though I dutifully run my characters through the story missions just to fill out the Hall of Monuments.  Having gotten 9 characters through EoTN now (with 14 more to go), to say I'm burned out on this is an understatement.  When I'm not bored senseless (Curse of the Nornbear AGAIN?!?!?) I'm frustrated when I do try something new (like the Catacombs) and personally don't need anymore frustration in my life.

On a personal note, things have been going so bad lately IRL, I almost decided to cash it all in Friday night.  Had a prescription bottle in one hand and a handfull of pills in the other.  Decided I'd better call someone first.

So yeah, nothing is fun lately.  But when I log in to find fun in GW:EN - a diversion from the "suckiness" of every day life - I find just more of the same: boredom and frustration.  Sorry, I don't need anymore of that right now.  Will probably be taking an extended break very soon.

Been a pleasure, guys.

Later.

I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from, Serling. I have always enjoyed your literate and interesting posts here, and I can definitely relate to them as well.

Ask me tomorrow about EotN and I'll probably hate it all over again!

A game, book, movie, whatever ought to be an escape from the occasional drudgeries of RL and not just an extension of them. I can see how getting through these dungeons could seem like a chore -- like when I made maybe 20 "-60 dp death runs" to finally defeat Fendi in Shards of Orr. It was nuts.

Hang in there. It gets better, it really does. Both in-game and IRL. :-)

Originally posted by tmr819

I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from, Serling. I have always enjoyed your literate and interesting posts here, and I can definitely relate to them as well.

Ask me tomorrow about EotN and I'll probably hate it all over again!

A game, book, movie, whatever ought to be an escape from the occasional drudgeries of RL and not just an extension of them. I can see how getting through these dungeons could seem like a chore -- like when I made maybe 20 "-60 dp death runs" to finally defeat Fendi in Shards of Orr. It was nuts.

Hang in there. It gets better, it really does. Both in-game and IRL. :-)

 

Serling...if I could come up there and steal your GW discs and delete GW from your computer I would right now.  You NEED to take a break man, 23 characters...seriously?  You have put more time into this game than any ANET employee could ever hope anyone would put into it, but now is the time you step away.  I have almost 2500-3000 hours in this game and I have played 1 character all the way through everything, 1 character all the way through Prophecies only and 1 through Prophecies to Lion's Arch.  I can't imagine the time you have put in.  I can tell you though, with the amount of time you have played, GW can't hold anyones interest. 

You have to realize you are correct the EoTN is a time sink, that is obvious...this is made as a stop-gap measure to help tide people over for GW2.  For the Casual GW gamer (a title which you do not qualify for), doing everything you have done is going to be drawn out between now and then.  You have done everything that might take people until GW2 to do 8 times more than they probably will.  I believe they will probably have a Sorrow's Furnace type patch spring next year (total speculation on my part), but other than that, the game will stay as is and just balance, balance, balance for PvP.

It is obvious that living in Michigan this time of year doesn't provide you with much opportunity to get outside and escape from GW, but you need to find another item to put your affection towards.  Try some free trials and other games.  I am not into spending money for monthly fee's but with LOTRO running a new $10/Mo promotion ($29.99 for 3 Month's compared to the standard $15/mo) through the end of January, I would suggest checking it out.

And just because you are not playing doesn't mean you can't come here and help people out.  I get a kick out of helping people who are excited as I was when I first realized how awesome GW was, yes even the dungeons in GW:EN as I stayed up with guilds and pulled an "all-nighter" the night it came out.  For a while try getting you GW kick vicariously.

You have your age hidden and I truely don't know you from a hole in the ground, but if you want to drop a message to me, to vent or get something off your chest do it.  I am on here pretty much every day.

Take care of yourself.

Ok, this is where I'm at with life and gaming in general:

The thing I liked about games like Quake and Doom was the ability to unlock "god mode": to be able to plow fearlessly through mob after mob watching them whither at your feet and die.  Yeah, it got boring after awhile, but it was always a fun "pickmeup" when you felt powerless and frustrated.

When I was in my 20s, I had a similar thing I used to do with tennis.  I would watch tape of Roscoe Tanner and then go out for hours and beat tennis balls senselessly into the practice wall.  When I got tired of that, I'd work on my serve, trying to emulate Tanner's.  After months of practice every day (I was living in New Mexico at the time), I developed a 120 Mph serve and a powerful topspin forehand and backhand  I used to crush my opponents.

It was cathartic.

That's what I hate about MMOs.  There is no catharsis.  There is no release.  There is only more of the same grind in everything you do; more of the same boredom from beating the same mobs over and over again, more of the same frustration from spending hours at something you can't beat.  Hell, even just getting from Eye of the North to The Battledepths means fighting the same 12 Wisps you beat the last time you had to get there.  Every time.  Over and over again. 

Once, just once, I'd like to see zero Wisps on the way to Battledepths.  Just once I'd like the situation to arise that when you clear a zone and re-enter it the corpses of the foes you just killed are still littering the ground.  Just once.

Just once, I'd like my character to feel "uber" without having to farm another single freaking reputation point.  Just once.

And just once, I'd like to take a 4-man team of heroes through Domain of Anguish and plow every damn baddie down in sight, like I'm using a BFG-3000 on God-mode.  And watch them drop greens and golds like they were candy from a pinata.  And I'd like to see them stay dead on the ground while I dance on their lifeless corpses.  Just once.

Just once, that would be my dream weekend event to make my worthless freaking life feel a little more powerful.  I would like to take all my frustration and helplessness IRL out on all the virtual monsters in GW, and make them pay for the crappy hand I've been dealt.

Catharsis.  That's what I need.

Your mileage may vary.

I get my catharsis in small ways: killing a boss, or a small mob, completing a mission or quest, finishing a campaign.

It's the key to my contentment--keeping the old expectations kinda low. If you go through life expecting great and glorious moments you're apt to be disappointed. But if you expect relatively little, then, "Ooooh! I found a quarter on the ground!" will have you walking on air. :-)

Kidding aside, I am really *too old* to be playing computer games, but I find them entertaining and escapist, as I mentioned previously in this thread. I find it diverting to "save the world" and be the hero, even if only virtually, in games like GW. So, I do get a sense of accomplishment when I defeat a campaign.

Likely, saving the world would start to lose its luster if you have saved Tyria/Cantha/Elona as many times as you have, Serling. I have logged many MANY hours in GW and only have one character that has gotten through all three campaigns and EotN as well.

Gaming-wise, you may need some other world to save, to mix things up a bit, as someone else has suggested here.

As for the "crappy hand I've been dealt", I don't know what to say to that. Most people seem to be dealing with "crappy issues" in their lives -- even if you cannot always see what those issues are. My experience has been that some of the best people I've known have been dealing with some of the crappiest problems, and the irony has been that the problem(s) has been in large part the reason that I like the person so well. Problems, particularly the really crappy kind, act like a crucible to make us better (or bitter, in some cases). It'd be nice if there were an easier way to grow as a person, but I don't think there is. One of my favorite movies is "The Elephant Man", the story of John Merrick. The reason why I like the movie is that it's a true story of someone dealt an unbelievably crappy hand and how he deals with it. It is a movie about personal triumph and seeing past the externals: Merrick had every right to be angry and bitter, but he was not. And he taught the people around him, those who learned to see past the ugliness, some truly priceless lessons about life and human worth.

In much the same way, on a smaller scale, Fendi and Ilsunder -- much as I hate those guys! -- have made me into a (slightly) smarter, better GW player. If I could stomp those guys or the Domain of Anguish with godlike powers, I probably wouldn't be playing this game; it'd be a total bore for me.

"crappy hand I've been dealt", I don't know what to say to that. Most people seem to be dealing with "crappy issues" in their lives -- even if you cannot always see what those issues are.

Where to begin...

Sexually abused as a child (ages 5-7) by a live-n babysitter.  (Previous babysitter died of old age in bathroom, and corpse laid there for most of the afternoon while I tried to awaken it.)

Father left when I was 4, beaten by an alcoholic step-father from the age of 7-16, suffering a variety of cuts and abrasions, including a dislocated hip and broken nose: told by both parents I would always be a failure: recently disowned by mother, who told me she was "through with me."

Threatened with divorce, facing an empty nest, facing the possibility of bankruptcy, incredible pressure to perform at work and it's the holiday season.  And most of my "issues" remain largely unresolved.  Low self-esteem?  Yeah, got that in spades.  Feelings of loneliness and abandonment?  Yep, got that, too.  Post-traumatic stress?  Yep.  Find it difficult to trust anyone, and the only reason I'm telling you all this now is because I don't know you from Jack.  Been through counseling and  tried all the psycho-voodoo, and here I am, still dealing with years of unrelenting feelings of loneliness and depression.

So yeah, I figure I have as much right to bitch about the hand I've been dealt as anyone. 

What I wouldn't give for a BFG-3000 in Domain of Anguish right now.

GW has been my backup MMO since release.

I find it great for that since if I am bored of my main mmo I can always fire this up.

It's a well done game but to me it's more of a solo rpg. I only team in areas your heros are not good for.

I really do wish GW2 used your GW1 characters. Sucks to see all that work go to waist.

I don't know if you're dumb ass or you just never played GW.  Because collecting "char hide" or Superb Charr Carvings is for exchanging Mo Zing mask and NOT specs.  Glasses are crafted in Rata Sum with crafting materials.

Originally posted by lightblade

I don't know if you're dumb ass or you just never played GW.  Because collecting "char hide" or Superb Charr Carvings is for exchanging Mo Zing mask and NOT specs.  Glasses are crafted in Rata Sum with crafting materials.

Hi welcome to the thread that for the past few pages has nothing to do with this post.  Maybe try using the quote feature so people have a clue what you are talking about.  When you make a little flame post like that from the middle of nowhere, you leave yourself open to questions about your intelligence too and the ability to operate teh interweb.  Play nice...

Actually, we *were* talking about why people leave (or do not leave) GW, so it's sort of on topic.

But, still... Forgive my off-topic philosophizing. I am sorry for that. It's just how I look at games and at life generally, I think.

People basically leave or stay in this game depending on whether it is fun to play it. For me it is fun (even the aggravating parts), and for others it is not. When I get owned by some boss or other, it just makes me want to try some other strategy until I can overcome that obstacle or defeat that boss. That, to me, is "fun" defined.

But I can see getting bored and frustrated with it, as well. I'm just not there yet, not by a long shot -- although Tabula Rasa ... beckons. :)

Serling, I am PM-able at Guru and not hard to track down.

You have had it really rough in life, and I sincerely hope things get better for you.

Originally posted by Serling

"crappy hand I've been dealt", I don't know what to say to that. Most people seem to be dealing with "crappy issues" in their lives -- even if you cannot always see what those issues are.

Where to begin...

Sexually abused as a child (ages 5-7) by a live-n babysitter.  (Previous babysitter died of old age in bathroom, and corpse laid there for most of the afternoon while I tried to awaken it.)

Father left when I was 4, beaten by an alcoholic step-father from the age of 7-16, suffering a variety of cuts and abrasions, including a dislocated hip and broken nose: told by both parents I would always be a failure: recently disowned by mother, who told me she was "through with me."

Threatened with divorce, facing an empty nest, facing the possibility of bankruptcy, incredible pressure to perform at work and it's the holiday season.  And most of my "issues" remain largely unresolved.  Low self-esteem?  Yeah, got that in spades.  Feelings of loneliness and abandonment?  Yep, got that, too.  Post-traumatic stress?  Yep.  Find it difficult to trust anyone, and the only reason I'm telling you all this now is because I don't know you from Jack.  Been through counseling and  tried all the psycho-voodoo, and here I am, still dealing with years of unrelenting feelings of loneliness and depression.

So yeah, I figure I have as much right to bitch about the hand I've been dealt as anyone. 

What I wouldn't give for a BFG-3000 in Domain of Anguish right now.

Story for you...you can take it or leave it as you wish:

A set of twin brothers were born unto two parents who should never have had kids and lived life pretty much along the lines of how you described your early childhood (physical / verbal abuse, neglect, etc.).  It got so bad that CPS (child protective services) had to intervien and take the children into foster care. 

The story made the local newspaper and actually caught the attention of a university professor who was working on a behavioral science study.  The professor made it a point to follow the two youths,  who despite their pleading were sent to two different families and ended up being raised in seperate parts of the country.  He wanted to see how the children of such a bad enviroment came through in life and did his best to keep track of both children.

One of the brothers was very easy follow and 20 years later when it became time to interview them both, the professor and his assistant only had to go to the prison where he was being held on various charges.  They arranged a meeting and went to talk to him and the main question the professor had was, "How could all of this happen to you?"

To which the man replied "How could this not happen to me?  My birth parents beat me and verbally abused me, I saw them do drugs, my mom was always bringing guys over while my dad was passed out...bad things were all I ever saw.  Then when they took my brother and I from my parents, I thought things would get better and that did not happen.  The day they separated my brother and I devastated me, it was the most traumatic thing to happen to me.  How could I ever raise a family after, when that might be a possibility.  I had no shot in life, no other chances.  So again I ask you, 'How could this not happen to me."

The professor wrote down his finding and then went about the difficult task of tracking down the other brother.  Eventually they tracked down an address and phone number and called to make an appointment.  As they drove up to the house, they were shoked by what they saw.  They rounded the corner and pulled into the driveway of a beautiful home with a white picket fence and a dog running around.  Not quite what they had expected after the meeting with the first brother.  As the professor and his assistant had dinner with the brother's family, he asked the same questions with the main one being, "How could all of this happen to you?"

To which the man replied "How could this not happen to me?  My birth parents beat me and verbally abused me, I saw them do drugs, my mom was always bringing guys over while my dad was passed out...bad things were all I ever saw.  Then when they took my brother and I from my parents, I thought things would get better and that did not happen.  The day they separated my brother and I devastated me, it was the most traumatic thing to happen to me.  I vowed to myself I would never let anything like that happen to my family.  My experiences then just make me hold on to and love my family that much more.  There was no other way for my life to be.  So again I ask you, 'How could this not happen to me?"

The idea behind the story is you can respond or react to your situation, obviously both brothers made their decision based on the same set of circumstances.   It is always better to respond than to react, just like when a doctor says your body is reacting to a medicine is a bad thing and when your body is responding to the medication it is a good thing.  You have to be confident that you can choose to respond to situations that life throws at you. Maybe you are too set in your ways now to change anything, like I said I don't know you.  I just want anyone who is younger and reading your posts to realize they have choices in life, even when things are looking down.

I won't harp on you bro, it just sucks when I see people who think life is horrible.  I wish you all the luck in the world in taking care of your circumstances. 

Take care.

After 1,500+ hours of Guild Wars I finally got bored. I quit today xD ,enough said.

Funny thing is, when playing just about any game there is out there, you can at almost any time stop and ask yourself, "What the hell am I doing spending my time doing this for?"

Nice thing about guildwars is you can "quit" and come back and everything you had is still there . . . at least for now.  It's the beauty of buying the game and then no monthly fees.  I've lost interest a few times and come back.  No big deal . . .

I don't even feel like I get behind too much simply because you are right.  There's not a heck of a big difference between any level 20 character after the first week or two.  I think that's the beauty of it.  I can just come back and jump right in.  Nice.

If you haven't quit guildwars once, you should go ahead and quit for a short while.  Then come back and you will see one big thing that sets this game apart. 

I had one break forced on me before (lack of a computer) and the one I am on now (still logged about twice in 3 weeks) and I find myself already missing the people in my guild which I was co-leader of.  Like you said though, I never feel left behind and the meta-game doesn't move that fast so I don't worry about PvP.  I know the build that I use was successful when I left and will still be successful when I jump in and play a few rounds.