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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Good pvp mmorpg without grinding, but with good stealth/rogue class?

17 posts found
  Stereoviewer

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/04
Posts: 241

 
OP  12/15/07 3:14:29 PM#1

Good pvp mmorpg without grinding, but with good stealth/rogue class? Any1 has any tips?

  GormandY

Novice Member

Joined: 8/15/07
Posts: 421

12/15/07 3:16:02 PM#2

None out  in my knowledge, or no NEW ones atleast...

WoW rogues are fun, but I wont say anything about WoW PvP anyway...

 

  Czzarre

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/07
Posts: 3741

MMORPG Character Monuments

...When its time for your character to take a well deserved rest...

12/15/07 3:52:28 PM#3

Consider DAOC. It has 7 stealthing classes, 3 archers, 3 assassins and 1 speed class. The grind in DAOC has been reduced significantly with many quoting about 2 weeks at casual speed. Also even if your not max level there is a lot of PvP to have fun with.

Another option may be guild wars, which also has little grind. However, I am not sure about if it has a stealth class

Torrential

  gestalt11

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/17/06
Posts: 6169

12/15/07 4:20:35 PM#4

I'm tempted to say there are no nor will there ever be any good PvP game with WoW-like stealth.

 

Not really sure if that is true but my instinct say it is.  And considering how out of fashion it is with many good game designers I think they agree (Mythic, Arena Net, various FPS games).

 

The fact is computer generated ambushes are for jobbers.  In good PvP you actually create your own ambushes using your brain. 

 

So letting people have computer generated ambushes via stealth does too things:

1) it gives worthless jobbers the ability to have to great an impact on PvP.

2) it reduces the reliance and fun of real ambushes because they are abstracted into a the wonky stealth mechanic.  This is why some people say current WoW-like stealth is not good but a stealth mechanic that uses lighting and obstructions and a counter skill check like AoC says they will do would be ok.  The more stuff you make computer-aided the more it makes doing it for real via you own inventiveness less impactful.

 

And this is why wow-like (which is just a copy of EQ and DAOC stealth) stealth is bad for PvP.  It  completely removes an important tactical element of PvP from the players hands by abstracting it out to game mechanics.  This was done because they didn't know how to adequately implement things into the computer game to make such hand on stuff possible.  For a Heavily D&D based PVE game like EQ that essentially had to have a rogue class that is ok, and they literally had to because the whole family of MUDs its based on all have a class like it.   But for PvP the bad consequences out weigh the desire to have a D7D theif because it eclispes other inventive use of those tactics and is just out of whack and cheap.  Its not good for PvP when even the biggest loser on the server can walk right up to you unseen.  Not only is that a bad effect on gameplay but its also just  plain stupid.   There is no real scouting, just completely safe rogues running around in stealth.  Intelligence gathering is a no brainer, frankly its appallingly bad.  At least EQ2 gives large amounts of detection to various classes.

 

So you won't find a good one with a stealth class because if they had one they would be bad.  Its not that stealth is overpowered.  Its that is makes other parts of PvP either bad or worthless.  It has bad interactions.  It encourages sub-standard gameplay and discourages good cameplay in certain aspects and completely dumbs-down one of the traditionally more important, dangerous, and inventiveness aspects of war-fare; scouring and intelligence gathering.

Now if their were a more developed detection methodoly in some of these games that would mitigate it to some degree.

Also people can point to RTS games with stealth units (Starcraft, Warhammer: dawn of War, etc) but RTS games have point buy/production limits and they almost always balance stealth by making the units fundamentally inferior AND capped, which in EQ clones is impossible due to their remedial balancing system.  And yes it is remedial, it is purposely kept that way so that there balancing is a simple equation. 

The only game that does stealth units in a way that is similar to RTS is Eve and in that case I think it works out decently, ie. stealth ships are expensive, require extra skills, are a bit more delicate, and only work well for certain functions;  plus certain electronic warfare ships perform intelligence better they just can't recon without an escort and/or possible detection.  Although an Eve expert could correct me on that.

Is stealth doomed in PvP?  Not entirely.  But with stupid Wow/EQ mechanics and remedial class balancing; yes it is.  Developers have slowly been forced to phase it out due to all the negatives, real negatives not just bitter people who got ganked.  With Eve-style RTS-like richer balancing and smart implementation of stealth it is decent.  But most MMORPGs are based around remedial balancing, especially those based around a human avatar,  ie. role swapping and diversification makes more sense when its based on ships and was probably a very natural idea given the long standing make up of naval forces in the real world.  The only game I could see successfully creating an Eve-like role diversification is Guild Wars 2, but I doubt they want to tackle stealth even if they make a game where they could do a stealth class decently.  There is no way Anet has not learned the lesson of the huge value of role diversification and player experimentation.  Therefore they could create a class or skill set that decently balanced things out.  But I doubt they want to put in and design all the detection stuff necessary to make it actually worth anything. 

And besides the assassin short range teleport is a far more interesting mechanics than no-brainer stealth.  The Guild Wars assassin works much more like a mythical ninja in a movie with short range teleports and various disabling moves (blinds, poisons, slows).  They are just as good at burst damage and "hit and run" tactics but compared to a WoW rogue they are far more authentic.  Even if one thinks WoW rogues are a fun class or funner than a GW assassin.  Its just a fact that the way a WoW rogue works is just a silly when you look at it removed from the game. 

You never see a ninja throw a smoke bomb and turns completely invisible while standing right in fornt of you, casually walk behind someone while invisible, then suddenly appear to plain sight while stabbing them in the back.  Instead the ninja throws a smoke bomb, makes a small retreat via misdirection to a hidden location and then attacks from ambush. 

I just don't see Arena Net going from a class that closely mimics something authentic to a class that is obviously silly like the EQ/WoW rogues.   And if they did they would be bad designers, which they aren't, they are possibly the best class designers in the industry.

EQ/WoW (well mostly EQ, Blizzard just copies stuff) made the rogue the way it is because of necessary evils at the time.  I don't fault them for it, especially in a PvE game.  But when you look at a game like Guild Wars implementing stealth would be a step backwards when they already put the time and work in to make the Assassin class.  Stealth is an abstraction of the mechancis you see in the Assassin class.  It is by definition "dumbed down".  The GW team was perceptive enough to re-formulate the idea and say "Alot of this stuff is perfectly fine and does not need to be lumped together into an abstraction".  A Guild Wars assassin can ambush without stealth.  They can hide behind a rock or a wall and teleport to a target, PvE or Pvp.  They can blind things and run away.  They can teleport away to a safe location.  They only thing they can't do stealth-wise is stand in front on someone completely invisible while AFK.

Stealth was a compromise and back in 1998 that was ok.  And even then it was largely based on time-saving and lack of good ideas.  But now all its downsides have become very apparent and further the Guild Wars team's Assassin design have made it obsolete.  They put in the time and brain power to come up with a system that gives you the good things of stealth with out the stupidity that the abstraction causes.  And they did so in a way that even a game like circa 1998 EQ could implement.

 

The fact is that mis-direction and maneuverability as a design is superior in all ways to stealth-as-invisibility for a theif/rogue style classes.   When we are talking about gameplay of the game overall.

  MuffinManXIV

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 130

12/15/07 5:03:36 PM#5
Originally posted by gestalt11

I'm tempted to say there are no nor will there ever be any good PvP game with WoW-like stealth.

 

Not really sure if that is true but my instinct say it is.  And considering how out of fashion it is with many good game designers I think they agree (Mythic, Arena Net, various FPS games).

 

The fact is computer generated ambushes are for jobbers.  In good PvP you actually create your own ambushes using your brain. 

 

So letting people have computer generated ambushes via stealth does too things:

1) it gives worthless jobbers the ability to have to great an impact on PvP.

2) it reduces the reliance and fun of real ambushes because they are abstracted into a the wonky stealth mechanic.  This is why some people say current WoW-like stealth is not good but a stealth mechanic that uses lighting and obstructions and a counter skill check like AoC says they will do would be ok.  The more stuff you make computer-aided the more it makes doing it for real via you own inventiveness less impactful.

 

And this is why wow-like (which is just a copy of EQ and DAOC stealth) stealth is bad for PvP.  It  completely removes an important tactical element of PvP from the players hands by abstracting it out to game mechanics.  This was done because they didn't know how to adequately implement things into the computer game to make such hand on stuff possible.  For a Heavily D&D based PVE game like EQ that essentially had to have a rogue class that is ok, and they literally had to because the whole family of MUDs its based on all have a class like it.   But for PvP the bad consequences out weigh the desire to have a D7D theif because it eclispes other inventive use of those tactics and is just out of whack and cheap.  Its not good for PvP when even the biggest loser on the server can walk right up to you unseen.  Not only is that a bad effect on gameplay but its also just  plain stupid.   There is no real scouting, just completely safe rogues running around in stealth.  Intelligence gathering is a no brainer, frankly its appallingly bad.  At least EQ2 gives large amounts of detection to various classes.

 

So you won't find a good one with a stealth class because if they had one they would be bad.  Its not that stealth is overpowered.  Its that is makes other parts of PvP either bad or worthless.  It has bad interactions.  It encourages sub-standard gameplay and discourages good cameplay in certain aspects and completely dumbs-down one of the traditionally more important, dangerous, and inventiveness aspects of war-fare; scouring and intelligence gathering.

Now if their were a more developed detection methodoly in some of these games that would mitigate it to some degree.

Also people can point to RTS games with stealth units (Starcraft, Warhammer: dawn of War, etc) but RTS games have point buy/production limits and they almost always balance stealth by making the units fundamentally inferior AND capped, which in EQ clones is impossible due to their remedial balancing system.  And yes it is remedial, it is purposely kept that way so that there balancing is a simple equation. 

The only game that does stealth units in a way that is similar to RTS is Eve and in that case I think it works out decently, ie. stealth ships are expensive, require extra skills, are a bit more delicate, and only work well for certain functions;  plus certain electronic warfare ships perform intelligence better they just can't recon without an escort and/or possible detection.  Although an Eve expert could correct me on that.

Is stealth doomed in PvP?  Not entirely.  But with stupid Wow/EQ mechanics and remedial class balancing; yes it is.  Developers have slowly been forced to phase it out due to all the negatives, real negatives not just bitter people who got ganked.  With Eve-style RTS-like richer balancing and smart implementation of stealth it is decent.  But most MMORPGs are based around remedial balancing, especially those based around a human avatar,  ie. role swapping and diversification makes more sense when its based on ships and was probably a very natural idea given the long standing make up of naval forces in the real world.  The only game I could see successfully creating an Eve-like role diversification is Guild Wars 2, but I doubt they want to tackle stealth even if they make a game where they could do a stealth class decently.  There is no way Anet has not learned the lesson of the huge value of role diversification and player experimentation.  Therefore they could create a class or skill set that decently balanced things out.  But I doubt they want to put in and design all the detection stuff necessary to make it actually worth anything. 

And besides the assassin short range teleport is a far more interesting mechanics than no-brainer stealth.  The Guild Wars assassin works much more like a mythical ninja in a movie with short range teleports and various disabling moves (blinds, poisons, slows).  They are just as good at burst damage and "hit and run" tactics but compared to a WoW rogue they are far more authentic.  Even if one thinks WoW rogues are a fun class or funner than a GW assassin.  Its just a fact that the way a WoW rogue works is just a silly when you look at it removed from the game. 

You never see a ninja throw a smoke bomb and turns completely invisible while standing right in fornt of you, casually walk behind someone while invisible, then suddenly appear to plain sight while stabbing them in the back.  Instead the ninja throws a smoke bomb, makes a small retreat via misdirection to a hidden location and then attacks from ambush. 

I just don't see Arena Net going from a class that closely mimics something authentic to a class that is obviously silly like the EQ/WoW rogues.   And if they did they would be bad designers, which they aren't, they are possibly the best class designers in the industry.

EQ/WoW (well mostly EQ, Blizzard just copies stuff) made the rogue the way it is because of necessary evils at the time.  I don't fault them for it, especially in a PvE game.  But when you look at a game like Guild Wars implementing stealth would be a step backwards when they already put the time and work in to make the Assassin class.  Stealth is an abstraction of the mechancis you see in the Assassin class.  It is by definition "dumbed down".  The GW team was perceptive enough to re-formulate the idea and say "Alot of this stuff is perfectly fine and does not need to be lumped together into an abstraction".  A Guild Wars assassin can ambush without stealth.  They can hide behind a rock or a wall and teleport to a target, PvE or Pvp.  They can blind things and run away.  They can teleport away to a safe location.  They only thing they can't do stealth-wise is stand in front on someone completely invisible while AFK.

Stealth was a compromise and back in 1998 that was ok.  And even then it was largely based on time-saving and lack of good ideas.  But now all its downsides have become very apparent and further the Guild Wars team's Assassin design have made it obsolete.  They put in the time and brain power to come up with a system that gives you the good things of stealth with out the stupidity that the abstraction causes.  And they did so in a way that even a game like circa 1998 EQ could implement.

 

The fact is that mis-direction and maneuverability as a design is superior in all ways to stealth-as-invisibility for a theif/rogue style classes.   When we are talking about gameplay of the game overall.

Uhm... wow.  TLDR version?  Srsly thats an essay on stealth...

  User Deleted
12/15/07 6:04:16 PM#6

a very good essay on stealth at that.  

  brostyn

Novice Member

Joined: 1/29/04
Posts: 3120

Cynical? Me? Never.

12/15/07 8:58:27 PM#7

DAoC's stealth classes are weaklings, and it takes the average person at least a month to get 50. That doesn't even include the time it takes to get enough plat to get equipped. You're looking at a lengthy grind. WoW is probably your best option. There is still a small grind, but at least the rogues aren't hopelessly gimped. People actually play WoW, too. DAoC is a ghost town.

  MuffinManXIV

Novice Member

Joined: 4/26/05
Posts: 130

12/15/07 9:01:56 PM#8
Originally posted by brostyn

DAoC's stealth classes are weaklings, and it takes the average person at least a month to get 50. That doesn't even include the time it takes to get enough plat to get equipped. You're looking at a lengthy grind. WoW is probably your best option. There is still a small grind, but at least the rogues aren't hopelessly gimped. People actually play WoW, too. DAoC is a ghost town.

It is very unfortunate that WoW is currently the best option as a PvP game.  It is so boring at level 70 that it is almost a bit ridiculous.

  jinxit

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 864

12/15/07 9:05:36 PM#9

In city of villians there's the stalker which can manage to make a kill in 2 hits, its also very fast leveling seeing you can stealth most missions and stalkers in pvp are pretty nasty if used correctly :p

  Ujirik

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 457

12/15/07 9:11:12 PM#10

Why are you people referring to WoW stealth/rogue class? Anyways, Ragnarok Online has some cool stealth classes. Assassin class in RO is so much fun, better than any other MMO stealth class.

  Don_Giovanni

Novice Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 13

12/16/07 3:57:03 AM#11

I say DAoC have best stealt classes. Infilator or Scout are soooo nice to play. Keep take when you defend it with your scout in walls is something i think i never see again in mmorpg.

  Ravkeen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 311

I Salute U.

12/16/07 4:18:03 AM#12
Originally posted by brostyn

DAoC's stealth classes are weaklings, and it takes the average person at least a month to get 50. That doesn't even include the time it takes to get enough plat to get equipped. You're looking at a lengthy grind. WoW is probably your best option. There is still a small grind, but at least the rogues aren't hopelessly gimped. People actually play WoW, too. DAoC is a ghost town.

A month Uhh it takes the average person a week or 2 to get to level 50. Or you can get to level 50 quicker than that if you just RVR in the BG's all the time. Also WOW PVP is strait garbage compared to DAOC. WOW is a game that is based on what armor you got to win a fight not skills. As for DAOC been a ghost town no there is still a good amount of people that play. Also the game is very noob friendly and the community is not little bs kids. Also DAOC has a lot of creative stealth classes all are unique. WOW has just one the rogue.

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  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2528

12/16/07 4:18:53 AM#13

Your reply was very good but your completely wrong with this statement,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This was done because they didn't know how to adequately implement things into the computer game to make such hand on stuff possible.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is wow most popular mmorpg in the world becouse of this sort things make rogues like this so all kids can play and accomplish something in pvp a very unskilled player can still with these uber implementations kill a good player its stupid i know but thats what wow is all about make it so easy and give them so much power with this sort of classes many wanne be this class end result millions play wow.

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  Reccoo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/23/07
Posts: 218

12/16/07 4:26:49 AM#14

Originally posted by Ravkeen
Originally posted by brostyn

DAoC's stealth classes are weaklings, and it takes the average person at least a month to get 50. That doesn't even include the time it takes to get enough plat to get equipped. You're looking at a lengthy grind. WoW is probably your best option. There is still a small grind, but at least the rogues aren't hopelessly gimped. People actually play WoW, too. DAoC is a ghost town.

A month Uhh it takes the average person a week or 2 to get to level 50. Or you can get to level 50 quicker than that if you just RVR in the BG's all the time. Also WOW PVP is strait garbage compared to DAOC. WOW is a game that is based on what armor you got to win a fight not skills. As for DAOC been a ghost town no there is still a good amount of people that play. Also the game is very noob friendly and the community is not little bs kids.

Daoc community is the most elitist community ever, because so few people play it now, they all know each other, in pvp you will be destroyed if you are a noob to this game.  Vets in this game have perfect templates setup to their mains and alts and will destroy you.  Only thing different with Daoc pvp is that it has castles, other than that the classes are the most inblanaced ever seen in any game, and this is a fact mythic have destroyed the classes.  You can get a fuucking scout pwn you form 100 miles away.  I must say caping castles and towers is fun, but the class in balances in this game are a joke.  Aoe mez and fuucking pwn all.  1 person probably pwn a group of 10 in /stick if he is a caster such as  vamp or wizard.  Rvr was good but with the inbalances in this game and te total elitism it is not going to be much fun.

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2528

12/16/07 4:27:03 AM#15

Originally posted by MuffinManXIV
Originally posted by brostyn

DAoC's stealth classes are weaklings, and it takes the average person at least a month to get 50. That doesn't even include the time it takes to get enough plat to get equipped. You're looking at a lengthy grind. WoW is probably your best option. There is still a small grind, but at least the rogues aren't hopelessly gimped. People actually play WoW, too. DAoC is a ghost town.

It is very unfortunate that WoW is currently the best option as a PvP game.  It is so boring at level 70 that it is almost a bit ridiculous.

Best pvp in wow?

First is so carebear its pathetic its cater towards casuals with no skill.

But becouse your all new here with your first mmo you dont know better, there are games out there who have superior pvp vs wow but no use to mention witch games you all so brainwasted by wow it dont matter what i say you got the wow bug in your heads:(

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  Coman

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/29/04
Posts: 1954

12/16/07 4:42:36 AM#16

I would keep an eye on Fallen Earth. I am not entirly sure how stealth is gonna work in that game, but I do know it requeres more then pressing an stealth button. You actualy have to sneak. Also not sure if you turn invisiable. I though you would not become invisiable, but poeple can not hear your footsteps when walking slow and such.

There are shamefully not a lot of PvP game, without grinding. However EVE seems to be an good PvP game. DAoC has some good reviews. Planet Side, with also has an decent stealth system. Thats about it.

Games with seems to have good PvP element are WAR, Fallen Earth and POTBS all seems to have "grind" in there game. However with WAR and Fallen Earth you can PvP most of the time and gain your exp in PvP zones.

  onceloving

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/06
Posts: 106

12/16/07 10:04:17 AM#17

Originally posted by Coman

I would keep an eye on Fallen Earth. I am not entirly sure how stealth is gonna work in that game, but I do know it requeres more then pressing an stealth button. You actualy have to sneak. Also not sure if you turn invisiable. I though you would not become invisiable, but poeple can not hear your footsteps when walking slow and such.

There are shamefully not a lot of PvP game, without grinding. However EVE seems to be an good PvP game. DAoC has some good reviews. Planet Side, with also has an decent stealth system. Thats about it.

Games with seems to have good PvP element are WAR, Fallen Earth and POTBS all seems to have "grind" in there game. However with WAR and Fallen Earth you can PvP most of the time and gain your exp in PvP zones.

When I played planetside, there seemed to be quite a few hackers who could see past the Fog of War and snipe you.  I didn't play extensively so I could be wrong about that.  Also planetside is almost dead as far as population goes (sad I know..).

 

Pirates of the Burning Sea's pvp is not skill based.  There are about two types of encounters.  There is the 1v1 which is just a race to destroy your opponents sails so you can sit on the stern of him and lay waste hoping he offers to surrdener all his loot.  There is also the join a 1v1 fight only to be jumped by 5 others so its 6v1 or 6v6 which is just a line up and team up on a target and hopefully your side will win.  There is no stealth PVP, and if you get sunk you lose your ship improvements, cargo, and possibly your ship (Which could be considered a plus?)