I would like to gauge public opinion as what is currently considered the best, deepest fantasy MMO on the market at the moment, aimed at the mature crowd (ie not WoW).

As far as i know EQ2 is the one, however Vanguard also has the potential to be the one.

Not sure how deep LOTROL is TBH.

However i believe that it is a sorry state of affairs if these are in fact the deepest fantasy MMOs.

In this day and age of computer tech and considering that the fantasy MMO genre has been around for such a long time now you would think that there would be something much much better.

MMORPGs, i think is the perfect genre for the mature gamer, however i am yet to find the a Fantasy MMO that is polished and deep enough to engage a mature gamer for years on end.

Eve fullfills this for the sci-fi genre, there are so many ships, so many modules etc that you can spend hours and hours just fitting a ship, the crafting is deep with two levels of technology.

The Market is massive and player driven, the world is massive with 55k star systems etc etc.

Where is such a game for the Fantasy Genre?!?

When i use the word "deep", i mean that the character customization, both looks and class customization must be massive and mind boggling, there should be upward of 20 classes, there should be numerous paths that a certain class can take, there should be loads and loads of weapons and armor, mounts, houses, ships, pack mules, wagons, dynamic weather, day/night cycles, balanced pvp, RVR (realm vs realm), guild owned castles, raid content, dungeon content, a massive world, there should be freedom etc etc.

Surely, as said before this not to much to ask for in this day and age. The computer power is available, a massive player base is available, all it needs is for some producer that can take it on and give us such a game.

There is not much that going on right now. Only those class/level/quest MMOs : (

Im waiting just as you do.

And if Darkfall is our best hope, then we are in big trouble.

Originally posted by daarco

There is not much that going on right now. Only those class/level/quest MMOs : (

Im waiting just as you do.

And if Darkfall is our best hope, then we are in big trouble.

If Darkfall is our best hope , than we allready failed. I hope that after all fake MMOs , vaporware's , scams people are starting to be smarter, or at least realistic.

Just a fact that a company claims to be working on MMO , doesnt mean that they really do , (or can deliver)
especially when it has OVER THE TOP features like Darkfall has.

I mean people really WAKE UP to REALITY!!!!

The truth is that game design is getting simpler and coders less skilled, and this is the fact all over the board.

What seemed to be possible before, now is suddenly impossible feat.

I mean, for crying out loud - game companies are not even able to challenge WOW ...no wait ...

they are not even able to bring WORKABLE COPY of WOW ...

And you want them to create something COMPLEX?

I have been waiting for the MMO you talk about since 2004. And let me break it to you

There is no such MMO in development yet. Which means that IN BEST CASE one might be released 2012

quite a wait..isnt it

Exactly : )

That was my pont, if the DF is the best we can wait for...we are in deep #*¤"!

Maybe i should have put a */sarcasm* there?

The answer is probably Vanguard, but theres huge other issues which meant it failed....

The basics of Vanguard were great, huge world, large number of classes, non-trival crafting. Non-combat progression through diplomacy. Just a shame that the implementation of that was basically cack.

Oh, and they forgot to make it fun.

For non-fantasy, its Eve.

Well I haven't heard much regarding the owner's going into liquidation but The Saga of Ryzom is definitely your best bet.

The more data, especially unique data as in char customization and number of different classes,  the computers at both ends have to read ...the lower the number of players that can be comfortably online.   

Online games require a minimum number on-line and in proximity to be viable for grouping.

Grouping itself requires more in system demands than solo.

World size spreading out the populace is a factor, too large and grouping is hampered...max server size is based on the game working well in the heavily populated areas.

Thus everything becomes a trade-off.

Yep, I have to agree, Darkfall is the only game that's even close to attempting what you want OP, and there's a pretty common consensus among many gamers that Adventurine, (and maybe not even anyone else) can ever create a game with all those features.

I think you'll have to be satisfied with playing a game that has a subset of your desired features that you are most looking for. 

anyone think that Aoc might bring a little more to the table, im impartal so just waiting.

Bioware is a player that I think can pull it off....THATS the mmo I am waiting for....

Originally posted by Lobotomist

 

 

If Darkfall is our best hope , than we allready failed. I hope that after all fake MMOs , vaporware's , scams people are starting to be smarter, or at least realistic.

Just a fact that a company claims to be working on MMO , doesnt mean that they really do , (or can deliver)
especially when it has OVER THE TOP features like Darkfall has.

I mean people really WAKE UP to REALITY!!!!

 

The truth is that game design is getting simpler and coders less skilled, and this is the fact all over the board.

What seemed to be possible before, now is suddenly impossible feat.

I mean, for crying out loud - game companies are not even able to challenge WOW ...no wait ...

they are not even able to bring WORKABLE COPY of WOW ...

You WoW haters crack me up you are so jealous at its success you can't stand it. You hate the idea that nothing out there is more popular. Get over it. If all you people think you know what the perfect MMO is then by all means or open your own company and make it. I promise you, you'll fail just like everyone else is at least from your point of views. Yes there are millions out there who look for a great MMO, but only a small part of them want pvp. PvP doesnt make a good world. It never will. Not unless you get ris of all the ganker, afk attackers, those who can only attack someone in a group, or those who only look for people clearly beatable for them. NO matter what PvP should be consentual. Areas set aside for that kind of crap are fine. As its my belief only gankers and such want open pvp so they can do the before mentioned crap.

That fact of the matter is WOW isnt the best ever and isnt the worst  either....I can see the point of view of WOW haters.  The idea of an MMO is to fall into another world. To find an alternate existence..carve out a little bit of you in the genre you love. WOW's popularity has made it almost too mainstream to consider intimate enough for it to feel like it can be personal. Thats why games like Horizens can still have an audience. It just felt comfortable to those players. Feels intimate. WOW gets alot right though as well. Technically the game is sound. Zoning at a minimum, great music and atmosphere and for what they lacked in visual fidelity they made up for it with fantastic art direction. I played WOW for almost a year and loved it. That was then this is now, I am back, once again, to EQ2. I have high hopes for Bioware's planned MMO. I have liked all the projects they have poured their passion into.   

Originally posted by Raven99

 

Originally posted by Lobotomist

 

 

If Darkfall is our best hope , than we allready failed. I hope that after all fake MMOs , vaporware's , scams people are starting to be smarter, or at least realistic.

Just a fact that a company claims to be working on MMO , doesnt mean that they really do , (or can deliver)
especially when it has OVER THE TOP features like Darkfall has.

I mean people really WAKE UP to REALITY!!!!

 

The truth is that game design is getting simpler and coders less skilled, and this is the fact all over the board.

What seemed to be possible before, now is suddenly impossible feat.

I mean, for crying out loud - game companies are not even able to challenge WOW ...no wait ...

they are not even able to bring WORKABLE COPY of WOW ...

Game design is getting simpler is it? wow looks like they better hire all the 8-bit and 16-bit programmers back. Because wow those were some really complex and seriously deep coded games.

 

You WoW haters crack me up you are so jealous at its success you can't stand it. You hate the idea that nothing out there is more popular. Get over it. If all you people think you know what the perfect MMO is then by all means or open your own company and make it. I promise you, you'll fail just like everyone else is at least from your point of views. Yes there are millions out there who look for a great MMO, but only a small part of them want pvp. PvP doesnt make a good world. It never will. Not unless you get ris of all the ganker, afk attackers, those who can only attack someone in a group, or those who only look for people clearly beatable for them. NO matter what PvP should be consentual. Areas set aside for that kind of crap are fine. As its my belief only gankers and such want open pvp so they can do the before mentioned crap.

The reasons i (personally) hate wow:

 - Depth:  This game has the depth of of a piss-puddle in the desert.  Like all "grind" mmo's, you are reverted to killing 5 of these, running here, talking to this guy, kill 5 of those, repeat.  Almost all MMO's are suffering from depth problems these days

 - Loony Toons:  Playing this games rediculous character models felt like i was playing my 8 year old sons games.  It is very difficult for me to take a game seriously if it cant even bother to model thier characters to a degree where they do not resemble something that  just jumped off a cereal box.

 - Community:  One of the worst in the industry.  After playing on two servers (granted, i didn't play on all of them), the best advice i ever got was to "use alt+F4", which was shouted out by every pre-pubescent kid that knew what the keystrokes did.

While things like interface, character control and other mechanics of the game, it seems that WoW did it right.  I guess the game is actually kinda good as long as you dont look at the screen.

Who the hell was talking about WOW HATE ?

Check your facts man

WOW is excellent game , with superior design. But that is all what WOW is. It is an massive online RPG (quite simple one at that)

But look ...

ULTIMA ONLINE 2D sprite pixelated 16 bit released SEPTEMBER 1997 had hundreds times more complexity than any of todays MMOs coupled with WOW and multiplied x 10 (except EVE) - and I dont even expect its complexity to be surpased even until 2012

So how can you expect progress , when programmers can not even surpass 10 years old game !?

Originally posted by VultureSkull

 

 

 

When i use the word "deep", i mean that the character customization, both looks and class customization must be massive and mind boggling, there should be upward of 20 classes, there should be numerous paths that a certain class can take, there should be loads and loads of weapons and armor, mounts, houses, ships, pack mules, wagons, dynamic weather, day/night cycles, balanced pvp, RVR (realm vs realm), guild owned castles, raid content, dungeon content, a massive world, there should be freedom etc etc.

DAoC has more items on this list then any other game I've beta'd or played.

It's worth having a look at using one of the many trials that pop up.

Vanguard was something that really needed to have been finished before it was released. Unfortunate but looking at the recent post regarding PotBS it seems that this style of games development and scheduling is now pretty much standard.

Personally I hope WAR avoids it.

As for WoW bashing when oh when will I be able to read a post regarding fanatasty MMO's, gaming or cards that doesn't have some teenage fanboi extolling the virtues of what is essentially the fast food of the MMO world.

As far as EVE hitting the mark. Missed it by a wide margin for me. Then again I guess that's why this 'deep game' is so elusive. Each of us have an different understanding of what that may be. Adellion is a game that's endeavouring to be a good MMO but not much in the way of funding and a lot of people writing content and doing a little work on it mean it's a fair way off seeing the light of day. As good a cause as any to rally around I guess for those hoping to have input into what goes live as an actual MMORPG as opposed to the MMO WoW has become.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Who the hell was talking about WOW HATE ?

Check your facts man

WOW is excellent game , with superior design. But that is all what WOW is. It is an massive online RPG (quite simple one at that)

But look ...

ULTIMA ONLINE 2D sprite pixelated 16 bit released SEPTEMBER 1997 had hundreds times more complexity than any of todays MMOs coupled with WOW and multiplied x 10 (except EVE) - and I dont even expect its complexity to be surpased even until 2012

 

So how can you expect progress , when programmers can not even surpass 10 years old game !?

 

Good point about UO's complexity exceeding almost all games released today. I think it is due to the fact they didn't have to invest tons of resources into graphics, art design and what ever, they could focus most of their efforts on the gameplay mechanics, hence the deeper game.

Game design is fairly simple. I'm developing my own MMO as we speak. Have been for more then 2 years now.

What's the hard part? Documents. Writing the dev documents and planning the entire game out on paper is one of the hardest things i've done so far. Making the engine was a peice of cake. Just took time and testing. It's nearly completed, but my dev documents are no where completed. I've got nearly all the game mechanics written and designed, but i'm still making tweaks. I havn't even started on the story of the game, but I do at least have a very good idea for its direction.

My game isn't going to be for the dumbest of gamers. It takes thinking and has superior depth then what you're use to. Stats don't make/break your character. Skills and gear is heavily relied on in my game.

I do have an information splurt wrote up that I could post here that'd give you a ton of info on how the game will play, but I can't post it yet as i'm not confident it is ready to be released publicly. As of a few weeks ago the game is announced in product. Currently has no name. No content. 2 beta testers are using test art to test and attempt to break game mechanics so they can be fixed/altered as needed.

The game is cattering to casuals and hardcore players alike. So don't worry when I said it's gear dependant.

It is level and skill based game combined. Levels determine base attributes, stats, and how your equipment scales.

Yes that's right.. scaling equipment. NOTHING is obsolete. The gear you obtain levels with you, but is randomized. So you may find that awesome peice at level1 and never want to let go.. well now you don't have to.. appearance of equipment is also randomized from a pool of textures/models.

There is PVP. That's all I can say for now.

Full indepth crafting system.

Well that's all i'm going to say for now.. don't want to get anyone to over excited as i've got a good 2-3+ years before a good working beta can be released for you all to try.

Beta invites will not be limited, but there will be server caps/queues (JUST FOR BETA.. NOT FOR RELEASE!).. so everyone gets a chance to try it.. no ones excluded. You just may have to wait in line.

Also, no I do not have a website up. I'm to busy to make it and will when i've got something to really post on it. To early in development.

and everquest is more mature than WoW..how?

Originally posted by Gameloading

and everquest is more mature than WoW..how?

In probably every way? :D You cant be serious!

Originally posted by Gameloading

and everquest is more mature than WoW..how?

I hope that was you being sarcastic.