General Discussion

Last night, developers from Flying Lab Software's upcoming MMORPG, Pirates of the Burning Sea, stopped by to take part in a developer chat, answering questions from the MMORPG.com community. While we do have a log of that chat available, we also present this summary of the event.

Last night, the crew from Flying Lab Software’s Pirates of the Burning Sea stopped by to answer questions from MMORPG.com members. Joining in the fun were: Community Manager Troy Hewitt, Content Director Jess Lebow, Game Designer Drew C., Tools Developer Rick Saada, Game Designer David Hunt, Community Team Member Tom, Lead Programmer Joe Ludwig and Producer John Tynes.

With such a large list of names attending the chat, it was clear that there would be questions from all angles as the FLS team really seemed to have their bases covered.

Beta and Pre-Order

The team fielded a few questions on the immediate future of the game. Specifically, fans seemed to want to know about an Open Beta for the game. Currently, Pirates of the Burning Sea is in its Closed Beta. It seems though that we’re not going to have to wait too long for the next stage though, as the guys did more than hint that there would be news on that later this week. They suggested that if you are interested in Beta, you should sign up here.

Open Beta news isn’t the only thing coming later in the week as Tynes cleared up a few more questions: “So in just a few days, we'll cover the open beta, the European preorder date, and the fact that we're close to dropping our NDA as well.”

Read the whole report here.

As I said over in the distribution thread in the potbs forum here, I'm very disappointed in some of their answers.

They continue to blame game retailers for the pre-order box mess.  Where's the responsibility for the missing key codes in the boxes (in multiple stores)?  Where's the acknowledgement that stores weren't well informed about the game?  Where's the responsibility for not knowing how some retailers handle "pre-order" boxes as opposed to "special" boxes?  Who's at fault for delaying the EU release for nearly a month?  Who released a pre-order box in the middle of the Christmas window, after SPECIFICALLY stating that they didn't want to release the game at Christmas due to the crush of console titles? Who misprinted cards in the pre-order boxes?  Who hasn't posted a sticky thread explaining that digital downloads will NOT receive the pre-order bonuses?  Who has not set up information at the link on the pre-order cards explaining what players should do with their codes? 

Suggesting that one chain of stores, and their employees, are to blame for a lot of the mess, is just plain nuts.

The marketing part was disappointing as well.  What game waits for Open Beta to push the marketing campaign?  Heck, GnH had ads and mentions in major magazines even AFTER it was cancelled.  From early May, when they signed a marketing and distribution partner, until now, this game could have taken advantage of the PotC movie, pirate conventions held around the country, more gaming shows, magazines, talk like a pirate day, the three release windows, etc, etc.  Instead, they've waited until Christmas.

Wasted opportunity, if you ask me.

I'd been used to FLS being a very open, and honest, developer with their fans.  Over the last few months, though, I believe that's changed a bit.  Those two specific answers felt like corporate "spin", and it disappointed me.  Based on prior experiences with them, I expected better from that group of developers.

Wow, you're really angry. I'll take it from the top.

Where's the responsibility for the missing key codes in the boxes (in multiple stores)?

Manufacturing problems happen. I ran a publishing company for a decade before working on Pirates and there was always a small percentage of books or box sets or whatever we were making that came out with problems. We had books with repeated pages, boxed sets missing components, and so on. It's not a conspiracy and we are helping out those people who didn't get a key code.

A similar issue just happened with Bioshock's limited edition packages.

Where's the acknowledgement that stores weren't well informed about the game?

As I told you in the dev chat, our ability to communicate directly to retailers is very, very limited. We give information and marketing materials to the national management. They don't let us contact store managers directly and with good reason, since otherwise every game company on the planet would be calling them all the time.

The simple truth is that SOE isn't EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. We don't have the clout those companies have and when we talk, there's no guarantee the retailers will listen. That's not an unusual situation and there's nothing sinister here.

Where's the responsibility for not knowing how some retailers handle "pre-order" boxes as opposed to "special" boxes?

It's right here. I wished we'd understood that better. We should have asked more questions and given better information to our players from the start. I think we've said that several times on our forums but I'm happy to say it here or anywhere else.

Who's at fault for delaying the EU release for nearly a month?

It's nobody's "fault". It just takes time to make deals with international partners, and those deals couldn't even get started until we had North America wrapped up. You seem to think some kind of foot-dragging or incompetence was involved. That's not the case. Negotiating contracts is a time-consuming process. The companies involved want to do research, debate the offer internally, compare the costs and benefits of doing Pirates vs. the other projects they're being offered, and blah blah blah. That's just business. We couldn't delay North America while we pursued Europe, so we had to move forward here.

You might as well ask the same question about Australia, Korea, Japan, China, Singapore, and so on. We don't have deals to announce for any of those countries. We're working on all of them. Some will fall through, some will pan out. All take time.

Who released a pre-order box in the middle of the Christmas window, after SPECIFICALLY stating that they didn't want to release the game at Christmas due to the crush of console titles?

We did and man, am I glad not to be releasing the game during this time frame.

Once we set the launch date of 1/22, our hands were tied as to when the preorder boxes would come out. The retail chains want them within a specific window prior to the real launch, and that put us in October.

The only way we could have pushed the preorder boxes past Christmas would be to push the retail launch until spring. And nope, we're not going to do that.

Who misprinted cards in the pre-order boxes?

See above.

Who hasn't posted a sticky thread explaining that digital downloads will NOT receive the pre-order bonuses?

That would be us. We answer that question all the time and a sticky thread is not a bad idea. We don't really have a forum specifically for retail-related issues where such a sticky belongs, however. I'll talk to our community director about that and see what he thinks about consolidating all retail discussion someplace useful and easy to find.

Although I think the preorder page seems pretty straightforward.

Who has not set up information at the link on the pre-order cards explaining what players should do with their codes?

That would be SOE. Given that you can't use them until 1/7, it really hasn't seemed like a priority.

Suggesting that one chain of stores, and their employees, are to blame for a lot of the mess, is just plain nuts.

Have you shopped for a PC game in the last two years that wasn't Bioshock, Half-Life 2, or World of Warcraft? Dedicated game retailers make their best money on used console games. That's what gets the wall space. When I went into my nearest games retailer recently, PC titles were relegated to one side of a half-height bookcase and all the titles were shelved spine-out instead of face-out. There was no distinction between new and older and budget titles. The PC games market is not doing very well, with a handful of high-profile exceptions, and games retailers are making their money and putting their focus elsewhere. I understand this and that's the reality we have to work with.

And again, as I said earlier, SOE is not EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. It's an uphill climb for us.

Is any of that actually nuts? This is just how the world works.

From early May, when they signed a marketing and distribution partner, until now, this game could have taken advantage of the PotC movie, pirate conventions held around the country, more gaming shows, magazines, talk like a pirate day, the three release windows, etc, etc. Instead, they've waited until Christmas. Wasted opportunity, if you ask me.

We spent the spring, summer, and early fall attending one large event after another. We went to regional LAN tournaments, PAX, GenCon, San Diego ComiCon, New York ComiCon, E3, GDC, and a load of other shows where thousands of people got to play the game, ask us questions, and learn more about what we're up to. We haven't been sitting in a cave all this time.

Mainstream advertising to people who have never heard of us -- meaning ads in magazines and on sites like IGN -- is waiting until those people can actually do something with the information. Anything prior to that is just a teaser.

I'd been used to FLS being a very open, and honest, developer with their fans. Over the last few months, though, I believe that's changed a bit. Those two specific answers felt like corporate "spin", and it disappointed me. Based on prior experiences with them, I expected better from that group of developers.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just a guy trying to answer your angry questions instead of getting other work done, and for all I know I'm wasting my time because you're going to be angry regardless of what I say. But I've been answering angry questions about this game -- and friendly ones as well -- for five years and I'm not stopping now.

Originally posted by johntynes

Wow, you're really angry. I'll take it from the top.

Where's the responsibility for the missing key codes in the boxes (in multiple stores)?

Manufacturing problems happen. I ran a publishing company for a decade before working on Pirates and there was always a small percentage of books or box sets or whatever we were making that came out with problems. We had books with repeated pages, boxed sets missing components, and so on. It's not a conspiracy and we are helping out those people who didn't get a key code.

A similar issue just happened with Bioshock's limited edition packages.

Where's the acknowledgement that stores weren't well informed about the game?

As I told you in the dev chat, our ability to communicate directly to retailers is very, very limited. We give information and marketing materials to the national management. They don't let us contact store managers directly and with good reason, since otherwise every game company on the planet would be calling them all the time.

The simple truth is that SOE isn't EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. We don't have the clout those companies have and when we talk, there's no guarantee the retailers will listen. That's not an unusual situation and there's nothing sinister here.

Where's the responsibility for not knowing how some retailers handle "pre-order" boxes as opposed to "special" boxes?

It's right here. I wished we'd understood that better. We should have asked more questions and given better information to our players from the start. I think we've said that several times on our forums but I'm happy to say it here or anywhere else.

Who's at fault for delaying the EU release for nearly a month?

It's nobody's "fault". It just takes time to make deals with international partners, and those deals couldn't even get started until we had North America wrapped up. You seem to think some kind of foot-dragging or incompetence was involved. That's not the case. Negotiating contracts is a time-consuming process. The companies involved want to do research, debate the offer internally, compare the costs and benefits of doing Pirates vs. the other projects they're being offered, and blah blah blah. That's just business. We couldn't delay North America while we pursued Europe, so we had to move forward here.

You might as well ask the same question about Australia, Korea, Japan, China, Singapore, and so on. We don't have deals to announce for any of those countries. We're working on all of them. Some will fall through, some will pan out. All take time.

Who released a pre-order box in the middle of the Christmas window, after SPECIFICALLY stating that they didn't want to release the game at Christmas due to the crush of console titles?

We did and man, am I glad not to be releasing the game during this time frame.

Once we set the launch date of 1/22, our hands were tied as to when the preorder boxes would come out. The retail chains want them within a specific window prior to the real launch, and that put us in October.

The only way we could have pushed the preorder boxes past Christmas would be to push the retail launch until spring. And nope, we're not going to do that.

Who misprinted cards in the pre-order boxes?

See above.

Who hasn't posted a sticky thread explaining that digital downloads will NOT receive the pre-order bonuses?

That would be us. We answer that question all the time and a sticky thread is not a bad idea. We don't really have a forum specifically for retail-related issues where such a sticky belongs, however. I'll talk to our community director about that and see what he thinks about consolidating all retail discussion someplace useful and easy to find.

Although I think the preorder page seems pretty straightforward.

Who has not set up information at the link on the pre-order cards explaining what players should do with their codes?

That would be SOE. Given that you can't use them until 1/7, it really hasn't seemed like a priority.

Suggesting that one chain of stores, and their employees, are to blame for a lot of the mess, is just plain nuts.

Have you shopped for a PC game in the last two years that wasn't Bioshock, Half-Life 2, or World of Warcraft? Dedicated game retailers make their best money on used console games. That's what gets the wall space. When I went into my nearest games retailer recently, PC titles were relegated to one side of a half-height bookcase and all the titles were shelved spine-out instead of face-out. There was no distinction between new and older and budget titles. The PC games market is not doing very well, with a handful of high-profile exceptions, and games retailers are making their money and putting their focus elsewhere. I understand this and that's the reality we have to work with.

And again, as I said earlier, SOE is not EA or Ubisoft and we aren't Assassin's Creed or Guitar Hero III. It's an uphill climb for us.

Is any of that actually nuts? This is just how the world works.

From early May, when they signed a marketing and distribution partner, until now, this game could have taken advantage of the PotC movie, pirate conventions held around the country, more gaming shows, magazines, talk like a pirate day, the three release windows, etc, etc. Instead, they've waited until Christmas. Wasted opportunity, if you ask me.

We spent the spring, summer, and early fall attending one large event after another. We went to regional LAN tournaments, PAX, GenCon, San Diego ComiCon, New York ComiCon, E3, GDC, and a load of other shows where thousands of people got to play the game, ask us questions, and learn more about what we're up to. We haven't been sitting in a cave all this time.

Mainstream advertising to people who have never heard of us -- meaning ads in magazines and on sites like IGN -- is waiting until those people can actually do something with the information. Anything prior to that is just a teaser.

I'd been used to FLS being a very open, and honest, developer with their fans. Over the last few months, though, I believe that's changed a bit. Those two specific answers felt like corporate "spin", and it disappointed me. Based on prior experiences with them, I expected better from that group of developers.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm just a guy trying to answer your angry questions instead of getting other work done, and for all I know I'm wasting my time because you're going to be angry regardless of what I say. But I've been answering angry questions about this game -- and friendly ones as well -- for five years and I'm not stopping now.

These guys are the most open  team I've ever known...even if the news is bad. I really can't understand where the anger comes from, unless its the typical "I want it my way and I want it now!" "Entitlement" attitude that seems to be sweeping the nation.

The Dev chat was very open....I've never attended anything similar with the dev teams of the games Rev mentioned...because they do not have to...as he said...they pretty much have the golden ticket. I didn't neccesarily like all of the answers given...I've been following the game for the full 5 years of development, and its changed a LOT over the years...so it stands to reason there are aspects of the game I do not like as much as they once were in its earlier phase of development, however I am impressed that they're answering the questions asked...directly.

You imply some level of malice on the part of FLS...I can't really see where that is coming from, given teh state of PC games. Lets face it, we're a dieing breed. Consoles are cheaper and as powerful as the average PC Rig. Developers love it...they only need to design the game for one to 3 different console systems. PC developers have to plan for god knows how many different possible system configurations...what a nightmare.

I mean no disrespect to FLS when I say this...but they are, at the end of teh day, a small, indy developer....another dieing breed. It is a big deal that they can even do a big box launch, even if it is not getting the attention they'd hoped. This is probably why EA can buy up so many great, indy developers and kill them over time...until it is just "EA's" game (ei Origin Systems to game a related title). For as small as they are, I think they do pretty good, given the obstacles they're gonna run into, as one of the few remaining indy companies coding new PC titles.

First off...angry isn't the right word.  Extremely disappointed, yes.  Angry, no.  I don't get angry about pc games.  Football, maybe, but not pc games (and, since my son was born, even football doesn't get my goat as much).  And second, this isn't about "my way" or "whining".  I asked questions, and then responded to the answers.  I'm just some schmoe at home, reading up on a game.  I have no personal stake in it.  Please don't attribute childish characteristics to me just to undermine my argument. (and the spanking comment was unnecessary)

I was disappointed that, in a dev chat, when asked directly about the issues with distribution, a company that's usually open and honest, passed the responsibility on to another group.  And, honestly, the follow up post here reflects that.  All those "answers" that John just gave, where was any of that in the dev chat?  Obviously, there was a lot of blame to go around, as admitted here, now, but when everyone was watching, the guys at the game store were the only ones blamed.  I find that lame, and I expected better from this company.

And, before we get too deep into this "small time" or "indy" stuff, lets stop fooling ourselves.  SOE is a major distributor, who has the process "down cold" from their "years of experience".  FLS is small and indy, and had they done the distribution themselves, I'd have given them a pass.  But, they didn't.  They hired a big boy...and had problems.  It happens, sure...but no free pass.  SOE and EA are both at the top of the distribution game.  EA may be better...but they are in the same general class.

I am glad to see that there is more responsibility being taken, now, although again, it seems strange none of this was part of the dev chat.  I still think too much blame is being directed at the game stores, who yes, I do shop at.  I find plenty of PC games at Best Buy, Target, Gamestop, EB games, etc...Are they the most popular, no.  Do people there know what they are doing.  Sure.  When I bought City of Heroes years ago, not only were they on the shelves, for all to see, but the staff who sold it to me had played it.  Is there a trend?  Sure.  Is it the reason for all publishing and marketing issues?  By John's own admission, no.  Like when you mention that the preorders needed to come out in October in order to avoid the Christmas crunch.  That' was the plan when you announced SOE.  Yet, come Nov. 1st, no boxes.  Gamestops fault?

Honestly, I don't have time to keep going with this. Family to take care of and all.   Needless to say, some of the stuff in John's response is nice to see, as it takes more responsibililty.  And some of it is still disappointing.  Que sara.  I will say that this is the first time I've heard of an mmo waiting for open beta to put articles in magazines.  It seems like a new strategy, and I'm interested to see how it works.  Good luck. 

Personally I don't get the questions at all, when does a player care about marketing aspects or any aspects other then the game play? I mean ok, cool we want to see more people know about this title so more will be joining. BUT I can use a prime excample of a recent game, unknown to most and now has hit #1 a few times in the PC line for awhile now with no adverstiment till now and that would be Witcher. Best RPG sense Baulders Gate and that say allot! This title now has been selling so well they printed more, who would have thougth word of mouth in the pc world would get anywere?

Hehe , point being, is word of mouth in our world of pc gaming has always been the top way to "get the word out".. While the hype of games such as bioshock etc defintily helped their sales, it also was a fast sale then dead, but games like Witcher keep selling strong because more and more people talk about it.

While I would be one to see your reasoning for intrest in wondering why all these issues in the marketing have been a problem for th