Of course, not everyone buys from Amazon. But Amazon provides a real-time, easily accessed, hourly updated sales model that no other retailer offers, like a moving average. It provides a window into selling trends. I'm very willing to be shown other windows. Today an org called NPD Group put out a list of top ten that had Hellgate at the top and TR nowhere to be seen. I've only read about it here, no links were provided. Gamespot and gamestop also offer best-seller lists with little hard data to go with them--but if you visit their forums on TR, you'll see very little excitement. Xfire would be a better source if they get beyond the same old top ten.

NcSoft released sales numbers just last week that were discouraging, but I was told by Tr advocates here that the quarter ended in September and true sales figures could not be ascertained until Q4 in Feb. Fair enough--but I still think that high numbers of preorders, if such high numbers existed, would have been mentioned in that report. I do notice that NcSoft stock has plummeted in the past 6 weeks--and is finding new 52-week lows. I saw similar stock behavior during Auto Assault.

I never take it to be a good sign when a company doesn't want to discuss sales numbers.

I think something that hurt the initial sales a bit was a bad beta.  I seriously was not going to buy it because of the beta,which I found pretty crappy.  Problem is alot of people think the beta is there for a chance to play the game early and for free, instead of reporting bugs/problems or w/e.

I'm glad I came back to check out the release reviews and was very suprised how much better it was than the beta.

While WoW sales were much higher then TR sales are, they still weren't anywhere near what they are now. There's no way the release WoW would have gotten as much fame as it has now. Patches and new content later, it's the new big boy in town.

I don't know... history's just taught me that MMOs at release never do as great as anyone thinks, but if the game's solid enough it can successfully grow with the proper development.

If that doesn't create a Wow-buster, what will?

If TR falters, it won't be because of a lack of corporate support. There was no better sponsor than NcSoft.

Originally posted by fordiepie
There's some discussion here of why TR won't provide an official forum. If you surf through the unofficial ones, you'll see that there's not much activity. Maybe there wouldn't be any to speak of on an official forum, and the world would see just how few subscribers there really are?

I would like to contest that part as i have to admit the forum that i frequent seems to be a lot more active than these ones (and also the gamespot TR forum as well).

But if then again i have to admit that some other forums either have a lot of passing traffic (ie stratics/ign vault/mmorpg) so you dont even have to play the game to post in those forums, which can potentially result in issues concerning trolling/baiting from game haters/defenders. You cant deny it, it happens.

Also forum users ARE a minority of the game players.

The 'no official forum' stance from NCsoft is indeed an interesting one i have to admit though. And for the majority of it i do stand by it, as i do see Critters, CuppaJo and Avatea reading/visiting some of the forums. They might not always post on those boards directly (unless its answering a specific question), BUT if it is indeed a wide ranging question then they will feed it back via the website (which you dont need a game account to read).

Now also concerning official forums, i know people who wont use the large ones, as they will feel that they will 'get lost in the crowd'. Although in the smaller forums, they are more likely to speak up.

People are using the argument that the lack of official forums will stop the players from getting good builds/dev feedback etc... well what is there to stop people from grabbing it off a seperate site and using it? What is there to say that the guides that were posted on official forums were not lifted from a 3rd party site (apart from professional integrity) Also the ratio of 'noise' to good can be suprsingly high in the official forums (i rest my case on the TR beta forums, although some of it was worthwhile, other parts were not(especially me and my caffine addiction getting spread like wildfire)).

Also and this is quite a good one, is that it is easier to put up forums if they are needed, but a lot harder to take them down in the end, so if this 'no official forums' doesnt work out for them, they can set them up... of course once they are up, they are up for good, and you if you dont like the crowd, you cant really expect to move to different set of forums to get dev feedback can you?

Also why does a community have to have an official place to meet up? Or is it so that the players know where to go when something is wrong (there is the feedback form on the official site for this as well ;) )

*edit* Damn, i had to use IE to edit this post as the forum doesnt like Opera >.<

Originally posted by fordiepie
not everyone buys from Amazon

 

Of course, not everyone buys from Amazon. But Amazon provides a real-time, easily accessed, hourly updated sales model that no other retailer offers, like a moving average. It provides a window into selling trends. I'm very willing to be shown other windows. Today an org called NPD Group put out a list of top ten that had Hellgate at the top and TR nowhere to be seen. I've only read about it here, no links were provided. Gamespot and gamestop also offer best-seller lists with little hard data to go with them--but if you visit their forums on TR, you'll see very little excitement. Xfire would be a better source if they get beyond the same old top ten.

NcSoft released sales numbers just last week that were discouraging, but I was told by Tr advocates here that the quarter ended in September and true sales figures could not be ascertained until Q4 in Feb. Fair enough--but I still think that high numbers of preorders, if such high numbers existed, would have been mentioned in that report. I do notice that NcSoft stock has plummeted in the past 6 weeks--and is finding new 52-week lows. I saw similar stock behavior during Auto Assault.

I never take it to be a good sign when a company doesn't want to discuss sales numbers.

Regardless, it still isn't a true identifier of accurate numbers.  Although it may have a very useful tracking system, It still is  just one source out of many retailers.  I wouldn't put all of my eggs in one basket and call out TR's success on how many boxes just one retailer moves.

 Time will be the determining factor, as the word gets out, and more and more pick up boxes over the next few months, it will be a whole different story.  We could take a look at how well Vanguard did on release, it sold a lot of boxes out of the gate... but where does it stand right now?  TR at least has two good legs to stand on.

I just don't think pre-order sales will be the determining factor of TR's success.  I don't even think one months numbers are good enough to even be factor in its success.  As one poster mentioned, should we have based WoW's success on it's initial release numbers?  If we did, I think alot of those betting would have lost their shirts.

I've read the arguments from the devs on why there'll be no official forum, and the arguments don't persuade me in the least. They don't even make clear sense, and I smell some hidden agenda. If you have customers asking for a service to enhance their enjoyment of a game, why do the song and dance about how you're not going to deliver? Give them the service!!

Other online games have forums. Sometimes, for some gamers, the forums become the social focus of the game as much as the game (and that means subscription loyalty! Monthly fees!). Forums enhance gameplay, gameplay enhances forum/social participation. I don't see the problem here, I don't understand the silly reasons they give, so I'm guessing there's something they don't want to talk about.

Originally posted by Deddpool

Problem is alot of people think the beta is there for a chance to play the game early and for free, instead of reporting bugs/problems or w/e.

QFT.

It seems that the goal of open beta these days is primarily for marketing reasons and not to identify bugs or issues before release. Flame me if you want but I feel that most beta testers in open beta are really there to just get a free sneak-preview instead of actually trying to improve the game. I do not blame them, however, as I believe the developer (or publisher) inadvertantly encourages this attitude by not giving testers any guidelines on what they should be doing.

---

Originally posted by fordiepie
Seven years (it's almost 2008) shows a lot of patience and indulgence on the part of NcSoft--that, and the unlimited bank account (thanks to the first blockbuster Lineage that Jake Song created) that they opened for the developers...

If that doesn't create a Wow-buster, what will?

If TR falters, it won't be because of a lack of corporate support. There was no better sponsor than NcSoft.

---

Can't help but detect a hint of sarcasam.

The only thing that's going to kill WoW is another MMORPG by the same developer which is in fact better then WoW. Doesn't matter who brings out what, the fact remains the fan-base is loyal to Blizzard, not WoW.

And Blizzard didn't exactly 'break the bank' in the beginning either, although I am going to agree with you. All these big name publishers figure they can run an MMORPG like they do single-player games. A release, a few patches and the money starts rolling in; Blizzard was the only one who really caught on that you need to continue to pour money into it.

Let's hope NCSoft realizes this before we get to a point where the development team is so broke then can't even patch bugs.

Now, as to your recollection of WoW release--it is so different from mine! I had an acqaintance who made a very nice chunk of change during the early weeks of Wow. Remember how the sales were so huge and so sudden that they didn't have servers ready for the players? The brass called the warehouses and told the distributors to hang on to the supply until they could catch up with the tech support.

There were a few communities that had a supply of Wow boxes--and my friend snapped them up, parked them on ebay for a ridiculous markup and paid a few months rent from the profit.

I remember no disappointment on blizzard's part on lack of sales. Wow was a huge hit from the beginning. What amazes me is that ongoing sales are still so high. When I mentioned that Hellgate was #1 on Amazon rpg category, Wow is #2. And their payment card is #3. Where is that much-vaunted "churn" that's supposed to prop up newer games like TR?

---

Originally posted by fordiepie
I've read the arguments from the devs on why there'll be no official forum, and the arguments don't persuade me in the least. They don't even make clear sense, and I smell some hidden agenda. If you have customers asking for a service to enhance their enjoyment of a game, why do the song and dance about how you're not going to deliver? Give them the service!!

Other online games have forums. Sometimes, for some gamers, the forums become the social focus of the game as much as the game (and that means subscription loyalty! Monthly fees!). Forums enhance gameplay, gameplay enhances forum/social participation. I don't see the problem here, I don't understand the silly reasons they give, so I'm guessing there's something they don't want to talk about.

---

Could be they couldn't find anyone to administer it. Could be they didn't have it in the budget. Could be NCSoft doesn't want the burden of maintaining all those forums for all those games.

I haven't heard their reasons so I can't call them silly, but there are lots of reasons you don't want a forum.

Wasn't there a small fee for participating in TR beta--and isn't that a fairly new development in beta testing? I read that Warhammer had 400,000 apps for beta. If they charged $5 a pop to participate--that's two million right there to help get the game moving.

---

Originally posted by fordiepie
I only presented what evidence is available. NcSoft could always release their own numbers--like Microsoft did with Halo.

Now, as to your recollection of WoW release--it is so different from mine! I had an acqaintance who made a very nice chunk of change during the early weeks of Wow. Remember how the sales were so huge and so sudden that they didn't have servers ready for the players? The brass called the warehouses and told the distributors to hang on to the supply until they could catch up with the tech support.

There were a few communities that had a supply of Wow boxes--and my friend snapped them up, parked them on ebay for a ridiculous markup and paid a few months rent from the profit.

I remember no disappointment on blizzard's part on lack of sales. Wow was a huge hit from the beginning. What amazes me is that ongoing sales are still so high. When I mentioned that Hellgate was #1 on Amazon rpg category, Wow is #2. And their payment card is #3. Where is that much-vaunted "churn" that's supposed to prop up newer games like TR?

---

Oh yeah the WoW release was huge no doubt, but they sure didn't get 9 million copies sold at release. Over the eight years of production a lot of their game sales have been ongoing, as is obvious with it still being in the number two slot on Amazon, but that's the point. If your MMORPG can pick up enough people to get the word out, ongoing sales will continue and populations will rise. Not on the scale of WoW of course, but NCSoft is no Blizzard.

Also, as a playful little note, I do remember being promised the ability to play a game. At WoW release, with the servers so full this was quite impossible. Delievered what they promised... pfft.

Also you can't count a game card that has to be purchase every three months as a game, can you?

---

Originally posted by fordiepie
It seems that the goal of open beta these days is primarily for marketing reasons and not to identify bugs or issues before release.

Wasn't there a small fee for participating in TR beta--and isn't that a fairly new development in beta testing? I read that Warhammer had 400,000 apps for beta. If they charged $5 a pop to participate--that's two million right there to help get the game moving.

---

Interesting... that might actually work since people seem so hyped about this game. Personally I would have perferred a Warhammer 40,000 version of PlanetSide.

Originally posted by DeathMutant3

 

Originally posted by Deddpool

Problem is alot of people think the beta is there for a chance to play the game early and for free, instead of reporting bugs/problems or w/e.

 

QFT.

It seems that the goal of open beta these days is primarily for marketing reasons and not to identify bugs or issues before release. Flame me if you want but I feel that most beta testers in open beta are really there to just get a free sneak-preview instead of actually trying to improve the game. I do not blame them, however, as I believe the developer (or publisher) inadvertantly encourages this attitude by not giving testers any guidelines on what they should be doing.

Agreed, they market stuff like "get into the game early!!"  Doesn't exactly shout "help us fix this game before release", so I don't blame them either. 

Closed beta was free, Open beta was free too, but if you wanted to preorder the game for $5 you didnt have to wait for an invite to get into open beta. The $5 was taken off the purchase of the retail version. So technically it was still free. Also anyone who paid the $5 and made it to level 15 before live got an additional 10 days free after live. The preorders came with a useless pet and a couple emotes as well.

Trust me, this game isn't going anywhere. It's not going to be a WoW-killer, it's too niche for that. I see it turning into something more like EvE, that has a smaller but dedicated fan base. That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. I much prefer communities like that to the "everyone-and-their-dog-is-playing" games like WoW.

I don't look at sales numbers when deciding the initial success as a game. The servers are full but not overcrowded, the game's getting generally favorable reviews, and NCSoft has a good reputation for supporting their games well. It may not be the most popular game on the block at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's not successful.

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Originally posted by Azanth
Trust me, this game isn't going anywhere. It's not going to be a WoW-killer, it's too niche for that. I see it turning into something more like EvE, that has a smaller but dedicated fan base. That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. I much prefer communities like that to the "everyone-and-their-dog-is-playing" games like WoW.

I don't look at sales numbers when deciding the initial success as a game. The servers are full but not overcrowded, the game's getting generally favorable reviews, and NCSoft has a good reputation for supporting their games well. It may not be the most popular game on the block at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's not successful.

---

I agree with you. Much too niche and will end up going the way of EVE, but at least I can stand to play this. :) The only WoW-killer, like I've said, is going to be another MMORPG from Blizzard which significantly improves the mechanics of WoW or is entirely different all-together.

*desperatly crossing fingers for a Starcraft adaptation of PlanetSide*

Originally posted by Azanth

Trust me, this game isn't going anywhere. It's not going to be a WoW-killer, it's too niche for that. I see it turning into something more like EvE, that has a smaller but dedicated fan base. That's not necessarily a bad thing, either. I much prefer communities like that to the "everyone-and-their-dog-is-playing" games like WoW.

I don't look at sales numbers when deciding the initial success as a game. The servers are full but not overcrowded, the game's getting generally favorable reviews, and NCSoft has a good reputation for supporting their games well. It may not be the most popular game on the block at the moment, but that doesn't mean it's not successful.

It's not ever going to have HUGE numbers, but it certainly isn't going to be closing shop either.

My wife and I are playing so +2.