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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi
US players don't want another grind-a-thon MMO with lack luster features/content that Korean devs are famous for period.

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That's just annoying. You make it sound as if Aion is heading that way. Take a look at the game (interviews, presentations, demonstrations) instead, to be enlightened. From what I have seen, the risk is equal or larger for "western games" in development (even tho i hate generalization) to become "grinders".

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Money talks a and BS walks. Until they release and prove that it's "Not Yet Another Asian Grind MMO." it won't mean anything. So far Korean developers have not proven they can break out of the stereotype they themselves built in regards to MMO design. As for L2 well..Again you can hype it up all you want but L2 was not and is not what US players want in a MMO. Numbers speak volumes as to what U.S. players want and are looking for period. Asian MMO Grind-o-thon's never do well in the U.S. and that is just a fact.

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No, it's not a fact becuase unfortunatly you didn't check if your facts were right. Maple Story, Silkroad, Final Fantasy XI andLineage 2 have all done well and better than many western MMORPG's. They also have proven they can get out of the common stereotype but again this is a lack of knowledge on your part.

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Take away the Asian market and the F2P games with item malls and what do you have? Sorry your point is moot and irrelevant. Again strictly speaking about the US Pay2Play MMO market Asian MMO's have never dominated or done all that great in the U.S. The dominate MMO's in the us have been EQ1 and WoW with Daoc and EQ2 being considered runner up's. FXII and L2 in the U.S. were never popular and I could care two turds about how they did in the Asian market. For Aion to penetrate and do will into the U.S. market they will need to drop their Korean MMO habits or else face the grave yard of Asian MMO's that failed and/or did poorly over the long haul.

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Final Fantasy XI had over 600k subscribers at it's peak time, considering the popularity of Final Fantasy XI and the fact Japan isn't the largest MMO country in the world, it's very safe to assume that Final Fantasy XI had around 200k ~ 300k subscribers in the west, which would rank it right up there with Dark age of Camelot and Everquest 2. Lineage 2 has around 100k ~ 120k subscribers in the US and it's subscriber base doesn't seem to be dropping over the years, which is more than can be said about many western MMORPG's.

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Again am I am talking about U.S. numbers here. The Western market also includes Europe and the Aussies but strictly speaking the U.S. numbers were never that great compared to other well established US based MMO's period as I stated. EQ1 had around 1 million US players at it's hieght and DAOC reached around 500,000 so FXII never really had that great of a following in the West period in relation to other US based MMO's.
Also separate the Euro and Aussie subscribers from your remark and you'll see your comment in a whole different light. US numbers for FXII once you take out European subs and Aussie subs were not that great overall compared to other US based MMO's.
L2 at one time had 100k-120k I'll grant you that but those were in the hey day when it first launched. US numbers now I'd wager are no where near the 100k mark period. I'd like to see where you got those numbers anyways to see if they have not just lumped in Aussie and European subscribers into the US stats.
Even now though those numbers are meaningless because FXII and L2 have all taken huge hits from American MMO's. U.S. players have grown bored of the Korean grinders and bots that infest them. The majority of U.S. players who once played those games have long since moved onto other MMO's and only the hardcore players remain. These being people who have invested to much time to call it quits.

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It's obvious you did not do your research. Everquest peaked at around 550k subscribers not 1 million, and Dark age of camelot peaked at around 250k subscribers, not 500k.
Asian MMO's have not taken huge hits from American MMO's, they have taken hit from one American MMO. A vast majority of mmo players moved on to WoW, not just from asian games but also from DaoC, EQ, EQ2, SWG etc etc. Lineage 2 is currently doing quite well with over 120k subscribers (considering there are only 2 european servers, it's safe to say about 90k ~ 100k is doing in the US). This means it's currently outperforming many western MMO's.
www.mmogchart.com

As you can see it's not just asian, but most western MMORPG's took a hit after the release of WoW.

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That chart is very out of date and incorrect. Sorry but the site where you got that chart from has been known for its inaccurate data collecting methods because a lot of MMO's don't even release their numbers to the public like SOE. In fact many people who have investigated the site have pointed out that the author of that specific website in most cases is just taking a guess at the numbers he lists for some MMO's because as I said some MMO's don't list their subs or have different methods of counting/collecting sub information. In other words there is no consistency and reliable method of data collecting sub numbers for many MMO's and in the end at best it's just guesstimate analysis of MMO sub numbers.

Admit you just grabbed that chart just because it's on the internet and you think people believe everything they read/see on the internet didn't you?

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Originally posted by Maggotscream
How can people believe the western marker is bigger then asia? that's silly! you sausages!

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How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?

No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.

Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi
US players don't want another grind-a-thon MMO with lack luster features/content that Korean devs are famous for period.

 

 

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That's just annoying. You make it sound as if Aion is heading that way. Take a look at the game (interviews, presentations, demonstrations) instead, to be enlightened. From what I have seen, the risk is equal or larger for "western games" in development (even tho i hate generalization) to become "grinders".

 

 

 

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Money talks a and BS walks. Until they release and prove that it's "Not Yet Another Asian Grind MMO." it won't mean anything. So far Korean developers have not proven they can break out of the stereotype they themselves built in regards to MMO design. As for L2 well..Again you can hype it up all you want but L2 was not and is not what US players want in a MMO. Numbers speak volumes as to what U.S. players want and are looking for period. Asian MMO Grind-o-thon's never do well in the U.S. and that is just a fact.

 

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No, it's not a fact becuase unfortunatly you didn't check if your facts were right. Maple Story, Silkroad, Final Fantasy XI andLineage 2 have all done well and better than many western MMORPG's. They also have proven they can get out of the common stereotype but again this is a lack of knowledge on your part.

 

 

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Take away the Asian market and the F2P games with item malls and what do you have? Sorry your point is moot and irrelevant. Again strictly speaking about the US Pay2Play MMO market Asian MMO's have never dominated or done all that great in the U.S. The dominate MMO's in the us have been EQ1 and WoW with Daoc and EQ2 being considered runner up's. FXII and L2 in the U.S. were never popular and I could care two turds about how they did in the Asian market. For Aion to penetrate and do will into the U.S. market they will need to drop their Korean MMO habits or else face the grave yard of Asian MMO's that failed and/or did poorly over the long haul.

 

 

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Final Fantasy XI had over 600k subscribers at it's peak time, considering the popularity of Final Fantasy XI and the fact Japan isn't the largest MMO country in the world, it's very safe to assume that Final Fantasy XI had around 200k ~ 300k subscribers in the west, which would rank it right up there with Dark age of Camelot and Everquest 2. Lineage 2 has around 100k ~ 120k subscribers in the US and it's subscriber base doesn't seem to be dropping over the years, which is more than can be said about many western MMORPG's.

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Again am I am talking about U.S. numbers here. The Western market also includes Europe and the Aussies but strictly speaking the U.S. numbers were never that great compared to other well established US based MMO's period as I stated. EQ1 had around 1 million US players at it's hieght and DAOC reached around 500,000 so FXII never really had that great of a following in the West period in relation to other US based MMO's.
Also separate the Euro and Aussie subscribers from your remark and you'll see your comment in a whole different light. US numbers for FXII once you take out European subs and Aussie subs were not that great overall compared to other US based MMO's.
L2 at one time had 100k-120k I'll grant you that but those were in the hey day when it first launched. US numbers now I'd wager are no where near the 100k mark period. I'd like to see where you got those numbers anyways to see if they have not just lumped in Aussie and European subscribers into the US stats.
Even now though those numbers are meaningless because FXII and L2 have all taken huge hits from American MMO's. U.S. players have grown bored of the Korean grinders and bots that infest them. The majority of U.S. players who once played those games have long since moved onto other MMO's and only the hardcore players remain. These being people who have invested to much time to call it quits.

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It's obvious you did not do your research. Everquest peaked at around 550k subscribers not 1 million, and Dark age of camelot peaked at around 250k subscribers, not 500k.
Asian MMO's have not taken huge hits from American MMO's, they have taken hit from one American MMO. A vast majority of mmo players moved on to WoW, not just from asian games but also from DaoC, EQ, EQ2, SWG etc etc. Lineage 2 is currently doing quite well with over 120k subscribers (considering there are only 2 european servers, it's safe to say about 90k ~ 100k is doing in the US). This means it's currently outperforming many western MMO's.
www.mmogchart.com

 

As you can see it's not just asian, but most western MMORPG's took a hit after the release of WoW.

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That chart is very out of date and incorrect. Sorry but the site where you got that chart from has been known for its inaccurate data collecting methods because a lot of MMO's don't even release their numbers to the public like SOE. In fact many people who have investigated the site have pointed out that the author of that specific website in most cases is just taking a guess at the numbers he lists for some MMO's because as I said some MMO's don't list their subs or have different methods of counting/collecting sub information. In other words there is no consistency and reliable method of data collecting sub numbers for many MMO's and in the end at best it's just guesstimate analysis of MMO sub numbers.

Admit you just grabbed that chart just because it's on the internet and you think people believe everything they read/see on the internet didn't you?

MMOGchart has been by far the most accurate numbers on mmorpg subscribtion numbers and if you have a better source outside of your ass, then I'd gladly hear it. he doesn't just pull numbers out of the air like you seem to be suggesting and some MMO's simply aren't listed because no accurate information can be found.

I think the real issue here is that you don't like the facts because they don't match your assumptions and  you don't want to admit you're wrong.

Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?

No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.

Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.

Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information  available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:

3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?

We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.

15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?

The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.

[aiounsource.com]

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?
No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.

---

Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.

Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:

3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?

We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.

15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?

The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]

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Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.

As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.

The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.

There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.

Besides the people who avoid Korean mmorpg's like the plague, all the hype this game has ever really needed are screenshots of it's art work.  People like games that don't look like crap, at least from what I understand.  I'm guessing any success it enjoys will be hinged upon it's visual style, and not some innovation of gameplay.  Does any of what I just said count as hype, I wonder? 

Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?
No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.

---

Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.

Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:

3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?

 

We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.

15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?

The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]

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Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.

As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.

The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.

There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.

(Read Gameloadings post below).The point is - has any game before been aware of this and stated that they will put real effort into breaking that mold? Please show me one developer source.

"There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies."

So why are you here?

Please. Don't buy it. With your attitude I'd rather enjoy Aion without you.

Originally posted by lilune666

Besides the people who avoid Korean mmorpg's like the plague, all the hype this game has ever really needed are screenshots of it's art work.  People like games that don't look like crap, at least from what I understand.  I'm guessing any success it enjoys will be hinged upon it's visual style, and not some innovation of gameplay.  Does any of what I just said count as hype, I wonder? 

I have to admit that I got hooked by the graphics at first, but was really surprised by the details the developers are working on. You should check out some of the later Q&A's over at aionsource if you haven't (you'll find it in the news section). I guess the visuals are what make you interested, and the features and gameplay make you stay. :)

Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?
No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.

---

Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.

Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:

3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?

 

We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.

15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?

The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]

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Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.

As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.

The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.

There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.

Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!"

I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything.

Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".

I'm definantly excited about Aion! It's something different from NCsoft, they're going for action-packed combat, involving skill, and a deep lore-driven world with lots of quests, and a great AI from the NPC's and monsters. The character creation is supposed to be on par, or even better than EQ2's system. They seem very enthusiastic about this title in their interviews, it will have player housing after the initial launch, which is always a step in the right direction for me :D

Character creation is better then EQ2 since they announced you'll be able to specify weight AND height!! Yippee!!

To the Anti dude, you're not even reading people's posts. There's no way anything you say will ever be taken seriously, just so you know :D

This is coming from me....

I used to live in Korea (born and raised) and their look on MMORPG is definitely different than here in America.  For us... at least people who argue how bad Korean MMO's are do not like the whole "grind" system, which you see people playing WoW or something like that.  Koreans are hardcore people..... they love to be the "top" and the whole crazy things.  There are people who live in internet cafe's living everyday playing the game    Anyway, my point is.... Korean games are USUALLY grind..... because if they aren't, they usually don't last very long.  If you can never reach the top... or the best level... or the best enchanted weapon... people keep playing, as long as they are hardcore about it.

Another thing you guys should know.... the American NCSoft is not as "high speed" than of the Korean NCsoft... period.  This usually reflects upon admin's running the thing.  If Koreans see something wrong in the game and bring out the problems... and admins don't do anything about it, the word gets spread in a second... then they literally go up to NCSoft to talk to the people there.  I don't see that happening here, hence a little more relaxed = a lot of shit going through (ex. bots)

Also, who knows when they're going to actually let people "fly".  Lineage 2... Haven't seen the dragon flying... and they talked about that in what... close/open beta?  You would have to be UBER to fly I would think once again.... and who knows when they're actually going to implement it into the game.

These little things are there to catch people's attention.  Hell you we all want to fly and stuff.... the thing is, you're either have to be a really high level or have a lot of cash... or both... which we all strive for in the game = keeping us in the game lol.

I quit playing MMO's for this reason... there's no ending... and that's the beauty of it and I get addicted way too easily lol.  Aion does seem awesome (haven't visited this site in a while) and I'd love to play... but I don't want to risk it taking over my life lol.

Yeah getting a wyvern on Lineage2 is extremely hard work.

But if you do some short research (which mmorpg.com users suck at) you will find that that everybody will be able to fly in Aion once they become daevas, at level 10.

What's up, guys? This thread looks interesting, to say the least. For the more optimistic among you, if you're genuinely interested in AION: The Tower of Eternity, check out AionSource.com for more info. If you think AION's gonna flop, then don't waste your time visiting. There's better places for you pessimists/self-proclaimed realists to hang out: not AionSource.com. I'll see the rest of you there!

For  me its clear  this game is going to be my next big MMORPG in 2008... Age of Conan, WAR all nice... but the great grahpics and animation style of this game... focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.

Also this is the first time that NCSoft plans to release the game in snychronisation with korea for europeans as well as americans! So this time they are working together strong with the western market which is a great thing...

I for one at least CANT wait to play it...!! Just look at some movies to get a glimpse of the detailed world and characters.

It's amazing how many people believe that "new and more" is ALWAYS better, when they miss the whole point about "doing what you know, and doing what works best." It's a given that there can only be so much more innovation and new content to MMORPG's, but if it were any different than the formula they already have, they wouldn't be called MMO's anymore. I'm sure Aion, just as well as other upcoming MMO's, will  play the same way as previous MMO's, with a few differences here and there, for the better or worse, but it all comes down to the individual's likes and dislikes. In my opinion, Aion will exceed my standards and improve on the formula I know and love.

Originally posted by LordDevil

focused on no grind, with its sweet classes and playstyle (cool PvP concept) look to be simply overwhelming.

From what I've read NCSoft has said that Aion will have less grinding than what we are used to have in korean mmorpgs. That's a pretty BIG difference from no grinding if you ask me.

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

How come some people do not have proper reading comprehension?
No one is suggesting that the Western market is bigger then the Asian market. The premise is that Asian MMO's do not do well in Western markets and in particular the U.S. because of their grind-a-thon game play and lack luster game content/features.

---

Don't play the "all asian mmo's are grinders" card, it's a really void argument that's lost all momentum lately.

Here, since you don't want to research yourself. I'll let you take part of just an ounce of the information available out there. I hope you like it. I know the beta testers (practically no NDA exists) think it's a great game so far. It also won "game of the year 2007" at Gstar 2007 last week. From interview with one of the game's senior designers:

3. What will you do in order for Aion to appeal to casual players?

We want to have short-term goals in the game, such as quests fitting within shorter timeframes. There will also be appropriate rewards for completing those. Very powerful game items (weapons and armours) will be attainable in different ways, making it easier for casual players to gradually work towards them.
15. In terms of content, what will be done to prevent Aion from being “just another grinder”?
The problem with Asian games, we believe, have been a design which is not overly complicated - very basic. With the exception of Japan, RPG’s have until recently not been a mainstream game type at all in Asia. In order to introduce players to the genre, games were deliberately made rather simple in their design. At the time, it was probably the right decision, as it introduced many new players to the genre. The demands on a game and its amount of content have, however, risen substantially lately in Asia. To survive on the market today, a very high amount of content is required. Due to this, it’s not an option to make “just another grinder”. Players need other things to keep them occupied while developing their characters. We have approached this issue partly by putting more focus on quests, allowing people to pursue professions and gather resources, andby incorporating an advanced combat system.
[aiounsource.com]

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Name one Pay2Play Asian MMO ported over to the US market that was not a minding numbing grinder? Name one please I beg you.
As for your other remarks....BS walks and money talks.
The devs can say anything and everything they want about the game and hype it up to hell and back but nothing will be proven until it launches. Nothing wil be proven until the features and game play mechanics they are aiming for are hit on launch and are proven to be true.
There have been many a MMO that have been hyped up with game features and game mechanics that in the end were either not all up to snuff in execution or were just flat out lies. Anyone who has been playing MMO's for a long time realizes that the true judge of a MMO in the end is what you have in the game when it ships. So while you are busy hyping to this game to hell and back it means nothing until the devs prove that they understand the Western ( in particular the American market ) and do not create a "YAAGMMO" ( Yet Another Asian Grind-o-thon MMO ) and break the mold. Until then I see no point in holding my breath over comments that are more then likely designed to sell pre-order boxes to the suckers who rush to purchase games over fanboi hype that ends up being proven false.

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Final Fantasy XI and Ragnarok Online aren't any more of a mindless grind than World of Warcraft, Everquest or Lotro. strange enough, I don't see you going to the Age of Conan forums and say "THe devs can be lying, this can be another quest based grind!!!"
I'd rather put my trust in people who are actually developing the game than a person like you who choses to rely on old stereotypes and assumptions. You have absolutely nothing to back up your arguements besides the claim "The devs must be lying!!11oneone", which is also not backed up by anything.
Normal people chose to rely on the philosophy "Innocent until proven otherwise" but you seem to think the right philosophy would be "Guilty untill proven otherwise".

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I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.

P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.

Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

I am not saying they are lying just that I don't believe the hype until it's been proven to be fact and not just hype. Oh and this isn't a court of law so I do not understand how you can pull off that quote with a straight face unless you are a used car salesmen or snake oilman.

P.S. Also you lost all creditability when you say that FXII is not a grinder. You can't do anything in FXII without group and grinding solo is just mind numbing after the first 20 levels.

Okay. But did you back your argument up, as was asked for? If you don't believe what the developers state about their game, you evidently believe what they say is untrue, ergo lies. But why are the developers 'lying'? I mean, lying works great for the credibility of a company the size of NCsoft. Why would they care? They just have like 10 other major products to keep a reputation for. It's as if Intel would lie about the specifications of their new chipset and hope nobody notices when it's released. That's obviously laughable.

No - What I just saw was a pointless attack on his person. And what i saw erlier were pointless and groundless attacks on the game. Even when you say yourself we have to wait until release to judge.

Edited for readability.

Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

 

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

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Originally posted by Gameloading

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi

 

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Originally posted by Caladon

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Originally posted by Anti-Fanboi
US players don't want another grind-a-thon MMO with lack luster features/content that Korean devs are famous for period.

 

 

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That's just annoying. You make it sound as if Aion is heading that way. Take a look at the game (interviews, presentations, demonstrations) instead, to be enlightened. From what I have seen, the risk is equal or larger for "western games" in development (even tho i hate generalization) to become "grinders".

 

 

 

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Money talks a and BS walks. Until they release and prove that it's "Not Yet Another Asian Grind MMO." it won't mean anything. So far Korean developers have not proven they can break out of the stereotype they themselves built in regards to MMO design. As for L2 well..Again you can hype it up all you want but L2 was not and is not what US players want in a MMO. Numbers speak volumes as to what U.S. players want and are looking for period. Asian MMO Grind-o-thon's never do well in the U.S. and that is just a fact.

 

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No, it's not a fact becuase unfortunatly you didn't check if your facts were right. Maple Story, Silkroad, Final Fantasy XI andLineage 2 have all done well and better than many western MMORPG's. They also have proven they can get out of the common stereotype but again this is a lack of knowledge on your part.

 

 

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Take away the Asian market and the F2P games with item malls and what do you have? Sorry your point is moot and irrelevant. Again strictly speaking about the US Pay2Play MMO market Asian MMO's have never dominated or done all that great in the U.S. The dominate MMO's in the us have been EQ1 and WoW with Daoc and EQ2 being considered runner up's. FXII and L2 in the U.S. were never popular and I could care two turds about how they did in the Asian market. For Aion to penetrate and do will into the U.S. market they will need to drop their Korean MMO habits or else face the grave yard of Asian MMO's that failed and/or did poorly over the long haul.

 

 

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Final Fantasy XI had over 600k subscribers at it's peak time, considering the popularity of Final Fantasy XI and the fact Japan isn't the largest MMO country in the world, it's very safe to assume that Final Fantasy XI had around 200k ~ 300k subscribers in the west, which would rank it right up there with Dark age of Camelot and Everquest 2. Lineage 2 has around 100k ~ 120k subscribers in the US and it's subscriber base doesn't seem to be dropping over the years, which is more than can be said about many western MMORPG's.

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Again am I am talking about U.S. numbers here. The Western market also includes Europe and the Aussies but strictly speaking the U.S. numbers were never that great compared to other well established US based MMO's period as I stated. EQ1 had around 1 million US players at it's hieght and DAOC reached around 500,000 so FXII never really had that great of a following in the West period in relation to other US based MMO's.
Also separate the Euro and Aussie subscribers from your remark and you'll see your comment in a whole different light. US numbers for FXII once you take out European subs and Aussie subs were not that great overall compared to other US based MMO's.
L2 at one time had 100k-120k I'll grant you that but those were in the hey day when it first launched. US numbers now I'd wager are no where near the 100k mark period. I'd like to see where you got those numbers anyways to see if they have not just lumped in Aussie and European subscribers into the US stats.
Even now though those numbers are meaningless because FXII and L2 have all taken huge hits from American MMO's. U.S. players have grown bored of the Korean grinders and bots that infest them. The majority of U.S. players who once played those games have long since moved onto other MMO's and only the hardcore players remain. These being people who have invested to much time to call it quits.

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It's obvious you did not do your research. Everquest peaked at around 550k subscribers not 1 million, and Dark age of camelot peaked at around 250k subscribers, not 500k.
Asian MMO's have not taken huge hits from American MMO's, they have taken hit from one American MMO. A vast majority of mmo players moved on to WoW, not just from asian games but also from DaoC, EQ, EQ2, SWG etc etc. Lineage 2 is currently doing quite well with over 120k subscribers (considering there are only 2 european servers, it's safe to say about 90k ~ 100k is doing in the US). This means it's currently outperforming many western MMO's.
www.mmogchart.com

 

As you can see it's not just asian, but most western MMORPG's took a hit after the release of WoW.

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That chart is very out of date and incorrect. Sorry but the site where you got that chart from has been known for its inaccurate data collecting methods because a lot of MMO's don't even release their numbers to the public like SOE. In fact many people who have investigated the site have pointed out that the author of that specific website in most cases is just taking a guess at the numbers he lists for some MMO's because as I said some MMO's don't list their subs or have different methods of counting/collecting sub information. In other words there is no consistency and reliable method of data collecting sub numbers for many MMO's and in the end at best it's just guesstimate analysis of MMO sub numbers.

Admit you just grabbed that chart just because it's on the internet and you think people believe everything they read/see on the internet didn't you?

im sorry but...don't you get your information from the internet, as well, or do you work at all of these places?