Originally posted by kishe

With all the news about EAMythic going through a massive overhaul as a company, this was to be expected.

 

 

Do you read that EA CEO made special reference to Mythic to dispel rumors about any major overhaul to the company?

Or read the newsletter saying exactly the same thing?

I'm happy Mythic is pushing to release a finished, polished, and amazing game.

Sounds like EA knows they have a winner and are doing whatever they can to help Mythic create even more of a winning product.

I'm just not happy because it means I have to wait even longer to play!

Originally posted by Mantelar

Well, I am dedicated Warhammer fan, playing Warhammer RPG for some years and trying  the tabletop game. So when I heard the news about Warhammer MMORPG, I jubilated. Enlisted for Beta, of course.

I began to loose my belief in all the project hearing more and more reports "how cool it will be" with nothing real to grasp. Last nail to the coffin for me was the announcement about server closing. Yes, I read an official statement //whole affair apparently serious, no more childish jokes there//  but it did not explain weak points for me. Two month pause for implementing slight changes gained from players feedback? Two months, that's lot of time and lots of work, especially with the team like Mythic. So - are the changes (and corresponding  game mechanics malfunction) really so slight? Or are they big, touching some of the core mechanics and the Mythic just not telling the truth to us?

If you know anything about programming you know that what may feel and look like slight changes externally (on the user's side) can be a rather huge change internally.   Programming isn't just plug and go.    We have no idea why they would need to take down the beta servers, but as a programmer I suspect its so they can impliment the changes and get NEW feedback instead of the repeated screams of viciousness.     Their style of beta testing is unconventional but definitly not unheard of. 

And two months for implementing the Elven Realms? Absurd argument. Look at EVE Online and their patching time when implementing new contents.

Eve Online is an established game with only ships and giant vasts of space to worry about instead of actual land, npc's, mounts, transportation issues etc etc.    Its much easier to get new content in to an established finished game since most of it (unless its huge mechanic changes like they do with WoW) is scripted in.   If you've been following Warhammer Online for a while then you know that 2 to 3 months is the usual time once they start revealing the racial classes & zones.  Adding in a new area IS actually a huge content and programming / scripting update.

My suspection deepened with the EA announcement about buying Bioware, mainly with regard to their developing MMO. What does EA, owning Mythic and thus Warhammer IP, need another great MMO for? Maybe beacause Warhammer is not prepared and in dubious state...

Because EA wants to create a big MMO division like SOE has it requires more than one house of programmers.  Plus their RPG division in games has always been incredibly lack luster now with Bioware on hand they'll have single player RPG's and a new MMO.    Its really just smart business.

Today is known that planned launch term is moved and Mark Jacobs conceded "some parts of RvR need to be re-worked". RvR is surely make-or-break of this game, the thing distinguishing WAR from countless other hack-and-slash MMORPG. So the malfunction really refer to a substantial part of game mechanics.

Its not a malfunction to rework something.   Sometimes when you design something and the programmers put it all together the outcome isn't always what you expected.    Thats why you rework.  

And today, my belief for WAR is totally lost. Not because of the game itself but because of Mythic. They apparently lie. And worse, they apparently lie unbelievable way. I disliked it. So I'm returning to CoV and looking for a Bioware MMO. No more interest about WAR from me. Wait for this game, if you like, I am leaving.

 Mythic's development time with this game thus far has been shorter than most.   I for one am glad they're addressing issues they know are there from feedback now instead of after launch like so many other games do.   Super Group fantastic system of EQ2 ring a bell?  Completely gone now but it was a tad late, if the game had started out with the play mechanics its got now it'd of been better earlier on.

Personally the push back just makes me clamour more because thats ... that many more chances I could get into beta!   I still look forward to Warhammer and as a programmer I can understand the want for the product your making to come out the way you wanted right at the gate.  Its always disheartening if you have to push something your not happy with out because someone forces your hand.

Not that unexpected really. A game of this caliber is bound to be a little late. :P

Originally posted by cupertino

Pushing it back also means they dont have to go up against the WoW expansion. and AoC.

They avoid Age of Conan, as long as Funcom stay on their schedule, but has there been any announcement about when Wrath of the Lich King will be released? I haven't seen any.

And best of luck to the Mythic guys. I hope you get a kick-ass game out of this in the time given. :)

While I'm all for releasing polished products, I'm very disheartened because this game set to release about now, and then the developers PROMISED to get it out by early 08'.  I would rather play through a slightly less polished game and have changes implemented slowly that way I can get my character started.  I just hope I get into Beta soon.... =/

Typical Mythic doublespeak. 

1)  We are not meeting our internal deadlines.  It is not because of lack of staff.  It's because... because... Well, frankly we don't know why we're not meeting our internal deadlines - and that is a good thing.

2)  Our beta testers discovered all sorts of problems, issues and great new ideas - none of which were anticipated and in order to correct the game this means we will have to push back the release date - and that is a good thing.

Anyone else see a management issue here?  Get rid of Marc Jacobs now and this game has a chance.

Originally posted by cupertino

Pushing it back also means they dont have to go up against the WoW expansion. and AoC.

AoC maybe. I doubt it as both games are targeting different audiences. WoW i am highly doubtful about. The "average" expansion time after announcement is 1 year, give or take. This means that WotLK may not be out until at least september of '08. And I doubt that it will come out by then since it took them 1 1/2 years to get TBC out and that didn't even have half of the content that WotLK is to have such as a new hero class, siege warfare, and other items. I forsee a Q1 '09 release for WotLK at least.

Originally posted by Zoomzoo

Typical Mythic doublespeak. 

1)  We are not meeting our internal deadlines.  It is not because of lack of staff.  It's because... because... Well, frankly we don't know why we're not meeting our internal deadlines - and that is a good thing.

2)  Our beta testers discovered all sorts of problems, issues and great new ideas - none of which were anticipated and in order to correct the game this means we will have to push back the release date - and that is a good thing.

Anyone else see a management issue here?  Get rid of Marc Jacobs now and this game has a chance.

 

I've heard they have between 170 and '4 floors' of people working on the game and a good many disgruntled testers peeved about the beta shut-down have been saying combat was slow, boring, the tier system felt like a single-player game and that there were a lot of problems with RvR and some of the main features aren't remotely close to being implimented yet, like City Sieging. Hell they can't even decide if they want to make it instanced, partially instanced or completely open. So yea, sounds to me that Mythic's leads are having a hell of a hard time coordinating and managing everything.

Doesn't help that they won't give us a strait answer for nothing as to why they are delaying, yet alone leaving the delayed release window so wide open. IMHO it sounds like they are realizing the game is not nearly up to snuff and need to delay near indefinitely if they want a AAA release.

I blame Mark Jacobs. It was he after all that promised 'the next great MMOG' in under 3 years. Hiring nearly 200 people to work as fast as they can doesn't get the job done. It basically makes sure something will go real wrong, real fast. The beta shutdown and open ended delay is a clear indication of that. And a glowing 'State of the Game' letter doesn't change it either. I mean come on, anyone who played DAoC knows how infamous Mark jacob's 'state of the game' letters were lol.

I think some of the people in here are getting a little out of hand with the whole "WAR will flop"  comments.  Honestly, WAR is too big to flop.  It is going strong and has MILLIONS of people eager to play it.  It's just like any Valve game, release date get pushed back, and back and back, but in the end you have a high quality extremely well made game that you can enjoy.  Plus, most companies eyes have been opened up since the whole vanguard.  And what company wants to do buisness like SOE?  I think EAmythic is making a smart move and I'm sure it will show in the end.

I would NOT compare Mythic to Valve software man.

I personally think the game has to much hype. Hype kills. Especially if a game is in any way, shape or form less then what the hype suggests. These delays suggest exactly that, thus people are worried. But yea, in this post VG world, delays are almost always good. I'm sure the game will be better for it in the end.

Look at Hellgate: London. That game had such massive amounts of hype just a month ago. Now it's coming out and it's review metascore is 74%. It just isn't living up to the hype. It's IMHO better then that 74%, but because it's not remotely as good as it was hyped, it's not doing good at all.

Originally posted by Elikal

It is indeed an odd coincidence that WAR is pushed back quite a bit at the same time EA as bought Bioware. Leaves us to wonder. And about this server takeoff due to player feedback... makes me really think if the changes arent deeper than they tell us. Oh well... we will see.

Ohh and people who will comment on my comment above that Blizzard wasn't the first and stole the artwork etc etc etc. Get a life and a clue. Blizzard was the first to build the MMO with these types of virtual character models and content. And from what I read of that old lawsuit blizzard bought and paid them for portions of the models to begin the old warcraft series etc. I don't know what to believe anymore but what I do know is that for all these years Blizzard has been the one to bring these models and own art to the computer gaming community. So leave it at that. As I see it know, WAR is a copy and a clone of WOW art and online gaming concepts. Who was the first to do all this? Blizzard was and so the WAR fans will ultimately flame me for this but many would agree with me on this idea.

Originally posted by bezado

 

 

Originally posted by Elikal

It is indeed an odd coincidence that WAR is pushed back quite a bit at the same time EA as bought Bioware. Leaves us to wonder. And about this server takeoff due to player feedback... makes me really think if the changes arent deeper than they tell us. Oh well... we will see.

I think your onto something. Maybe blizzard has filed a lawsuit against them bringing up something just to stall them. You can never tell, Blizzard has a lot of money you know.

 

 

Ohh and people who will comment on my comment above that Blizzard wasn't the first and stole the artwork etc etc etc. Get a life and a clue. Blizzard was the first to build the MMO with these types of virtual character models and content. And from what I read of that old lawsuit blizzard bought and paid them for portions of the models to begin the old warcraft series etc. I don't know what to believe anymore but what I do know is that for all these years Blizzard has been the one to bring these models and own art to the computer gaming community. So leave it at that. As I see it know, WAR is a copy and a clone of WOW art and online gaming concepts. Who was the first to do all this? Blizzard was and so the WAR fans will ultimately flame me for this but many would agree with me on this idea.

......LOL....ROFL!....What sort of reality do you live in??! Blizzard does not own the Copy rights to a Bright colorful world of dwarves, elves, orcs and the like of fantasy ilk infact thats just how ALL Mythical fantasy is!  You can't copyright a style ... YOU can copy right the ART (the actual physical artwork / model work) & characters (their back ground stories like where they came from and the cities they live in) themselves and if you look at WoW and Warhammer you see a distinct difference in how the Models are Created, Rendered and the like (Warhammers are much higher resolutioned than WoWs).      Warhammer and Blizzard's Color Scheme's are alot a like but their model details, resolution, texture resolution & detail are two different styles and qualities.   If you stand a Warhammer Online Dwarf next to a WoW dwarf you see a HUGE visual difference in everything but the over all color scheme (which is not copyrightable).   Blizzard has nothing to do with their decision to push back a couple of months.

Originally posted by elvenangel

 

Originally posted by bezado

 

 

Originally posted by Elikal

It is indeed an odd coincidence that WAR is pushed back quite a bit at the same time EA as bought Bioware. Leaves us to wonder. And about this server takeoff due to player feedback... makes me really think if the changes arent deeper than they tell us. Oh well... we will see.

I think your onto something. Maybe blizzard has filed a lawsuit against them bringing up something just to stall them. You can never tell, Blizzard has a lot of money you know.

 

 

Ohh and people who will comment on my comment above that Blizzard wasn't the first and stole the artwork etc etc etc. Get a life and a clue. Blizzard was the first to build the MMO with these types of virtual character models and content. And from what I read of that old lawsuit blizzard bought and paid them for portions of the models to begin the old warcraft series etc. I don't know what to believe anymore but what I do know is that for all these years Blizzard has been the one to bring these models and own art to the computer gaming community. So leave it at that. As I see it know, WAR is a copy and a clone of WOW art and online gaming concepts. Who was the first to do all this? Blizzard was and so the WAR fans will ultimately flame me for this but many would agree with me on this idea.

 

......LOL....ROFL!....What sort of reality do you live in??! Blizzard does not own the Copy rights to a Bright colorful world of dwarves, elves, orcs and the like of fantasy ilk infact thats just how ALL Mythical fantasy is!  You can't copyright a style ... YOU can copy right the ART (the actual physical artwork / model work) & characters (their back ground stories like where they came from and the cities they live in) themselves and if you look at WoW and Warhammer you see a distinct difference in how the Models are Created, Rendered and the like (Warhammers are much higher resolutioned than WoWs).      Warhammer and Blizzard's Color Scheme's are alot a like but their model details, resolution, texture resolution & detail are two different styles and qualities.   If you stand a Warhammer Online Dwarf next to a WoW dwarf you see a HUGE visual difference in everything but the over all color scheme (which is not copyrightable).   Blizzard has nothing to do with their decision to push back a couple of months.

Oh and reality has nothing to do with virtual reality. You can have dwarves and elves, orcs across every game. But when your primary virtual avatars look almost identical and game environments it is said by many a copy or clone of the game that's been out before it, which is WOW.

Originally posted by Mantelar

Well, I am dedicated Warhammer fan, playing Warhammer RPG for some years and trying  the tabletop game. So when I heard the news about Warhammer MMORPG, I jubilated. Enlisted for Beta, of course.

I began to loose my belief in all the project hearing more and more reports "how cool it will be" with nothing real to grasp. Last nail to the coffin for me was the announcement about server closing. Yes, I read an official statement //whole affair apparently serious, no more childish jokes there//  but it did not explain weak points for me. Two month pause for implementing slight changes gained from players feedback? Two months, that's lot of time and lots of work, especially with the team like Mythic. So - are the changes (and corresponding  game mechanics malfunction) really so slight? Or are they big, touching some of the core mechanics and the Mythic just not telling the truth to us?

And two months for implementing the Elven Realms? Absurd argument. Look at EVE Online and their patching time when implementing new contents.

My suspection deepened with the EA announcement about buying Bioware, mainly with regard to their developing MMO. What does EA, owning Mythic and thus Warhammer IP, need another great MMO for? Maybe beacause Warhammer is not prepared and in dubious state...

Today is known that planned launch term is moved and Mark Jacobs conceded "some parts of RvR need to be re-worked". RvR is surely make-or-break of this game, the thing distinguishing WAR from countless other hack-and-slash MMORPG. So the malfunction really refer to a substantial part of game mechanics.

And today, my belief for WAR is totally lost. Not because of the game itself but because of Mythic. They apparently lie. And worse, they apparently lie unbelievable way. I disliked it. So I'm returning to CoV and looking for a Bioware MMO. No more interest about WAR from me. Wait for this game, if you like, I am leaving.

 

Leaving because they're taking the time to make it a better game? Thats just absurd.  I'm glad to see this decision made, I'll wait until 2009 if thats the time they need to make it a better game for us.  I think all MMO developers should be held to these standards.

Well, the blizzard theory is simply absurd. WAR copying w0w is plainly delirant. I'm not flaming you but I deeply disagree with thine ideas.  Alas, WAR release is delayed and We do find Blizzboys involved for... EA Mythic retro-copying themselves. By Jove, it would be certainly a matter of misticism or somewhat.

I think the main reason for delaying the release is that they want to improve the game they are compromised with,  the IP they are dedicated to, and We the customers who don't deserve to pay for a Beta-like game to whom they wish to give a good, polished, fine game. All of them are proofs that they are not going to run for the easy bussiness but a proper way managing this big title that WAR is.

Let them work.

Originally posted by Fion

They pushed it back a quarter but still didn't give an actual date? I saw this coming (with beta shutting down for 2 months, who didn't,) and I see another delay after that. Well, unless they announce an official date in the next few months.

The delay is disappointing, but the straight-forward no-nonsense answers are nice to get from a CEO. 

The beta was shut down for a while when it was in friends and family beta as well.  It just wasn't announced.  Beta shut-down is a common thing.  Especially for just a couple months to put new things in.

Hopefully all of the content that's being worked on will be that much better on the other side. :)

For those that think Warhammer is a copy of WoW, you do realise that Warhammer has been around in one form or another since 1983.

1) I called this a long  time ago, and mmorpg forum goers bashed me (Not just they will not make it). The reason is obvious, they just put elves and DEs into the game. There is no way they could do all they needed to for elves along by march 08. (Balance, quests, armor, etc etc etc.)

2) The rvr issues is rather simple, they have daoc as background , but they are not using the class setup or the pvp setup of doac. Thus, while they understand the concept of daoc, they are on new ground for balance and quality of game play. (IE balance: do caster stack up to the , hybrid healers, do tanks stack up to the dps , etc etc etc. Does one tank stack up to a different tank , etc etc etc.  Is world pvp fun, is it worth the rewards, how do classes do in small battles and large battles,  etc. ) For all these things daoc rvr doesn't help much, furthermore, they could have done a better job with daoc, heck the next patch on daoc is total bs (If warhammer is like this it may not be worth playing , it is so bad.)

I still feel mythic has created one of the best mmos ever and i like the co. But it is not like they have a magic formula.  I also think WArhammer looks great, but that does not stop me from being critical.

 PS. the Wow-pack is like nov 08 ... 3rd quarter. (Unless things change but thats the word on the street , it may be wrong tho).

edit -

Bezado

"Any major company can sue another for copyright if they think that's whats happening. I wouldn't be 100% against the idea that Blizzard could of sued them for art style because it is virtual artwork not stills. That in my opinion would cause them to have some problems when it comes to release dates."

This is true but Blizzard WOULD NEVER SUE EA OVER THIS. The reason is EA has the license for the WArhammer name and the artwork that goes along with it, which is what blizzard used to develop the art concepts for its original warcraft games (with no license) .

Thus the procedure would be EA mythic and gamesworkshop would file a counter suit, and they have imperical evidence of the the concpet of this art style dating back before Blizzard utilized and in the least both cases would be thrown out and the biggest result would be that Blizzard would lose the suit and have to pay up.

"Blizzard was the first to build the MMO with these types of virtual character models and content."

All the evidence supports my assessment, from a legal standpoint becuase it will look for the creation or origin of that style, Which was done by Gamesworkshop not Blizzard, its a slam dunk. Heck ill even give an example, IF i CREATED a hyper warp engine and copywrited/pattoned it, however , never did anything with it and then some person/company came along and strapped one to a space ship and sold them, i could sue and win that suit anyday becuase i was the one that created and owned the rights to that engine, even if i was not the first to USE IT ON A SPACESHIP. (Gamesworkshop was me in this example and blizzard was the spaceship people who first applied the idea/technology.)

Here's the thing.  Right now I'm playing LOTRO and having a pretty good time with it.  I maxed my characters levels, doing some fluff things, working on traits, collection type stuff, getting ready to start hitting the high level raids.  The more time that goes by, the more the LOTRO devs add and they more they convince me that they are moving in a really positive direction.  So, I'm getting more and more sucked in.  Also got into a nice guild finally and that's a big plus.

Next year, Chronicles of Spellborn and AOC launch.  These games could potentially be very big.  I might try them while I keep my LOTRO account current.  If one of them blows me away I might try playing two mmo's at a time or maybe leave LOTRO, but it would have to be a really cool game.

The problem is, it feels like Warhammer Online will be launching a little late.  I might try it, I might not.  But with each great game that comes along that's one less chance for Warhammer to suck me in and keep me.

I wish them the best of luck.  Maybe when they launch I'll be bored with LOTRO and AOC and COS will both suck.  That's three big if's.  I'm sure there are others in the same boat, like the WOW players with the next WOW expansion, etc.

Anyway, more polish time is always good.  But longer dev time does not guarentee a great release or final product as we have all seen before.  They are saying its polish and this and that.  Sure, sure.  Time will tell.  Experience has taught me to be a skeptic. 

Tbh i was almost sure they'd announce release delay. After closing beta it was pretty obvious that beta testers feedback was rather harsh. Thnaks god Mythic doesnt rush release, there is no place on market for half-assed product, not after wow.

Even if they keep telling us war isnt meant to be a wow killer expectations are high. Anything under 1 million will be considered as flop (with all that hype going around).